Tradition Versus Scripture

[Brakelite]

but with the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) controlling all the documentation

I have no love for the Papacy, but I need to pull you up on the above statement. While it is true that during the dark ages, from about the 6th century on, the Catholic Church in Rome certainly produced a lot of fraudulent documents which were claimed as true and used to their advantage for hundreds of years, such as the donation of Constantine, but prior to the 6th century, the Catholic Church's sphere of influence and authority was limited to Alexandria, Rome, and a few satellite towns and villages in a fast diminishing empire, being taken over by Germanic tribes that were converted to Christianity by missionaries that were by no means connected to Rome.
The Goths converted by Wulfilas being one example, and the indigenous Celtic people of Britain and Ireland another.
There were also vast regions to the east unaffected by Roman imperialism, either pagan or papal, that had their own organized mission outposts which established the Christian faith as far east as China, and possibly Japan. By the 13th century there were Christian kingdoms throughout Mongolia, China, Persia, and everywhere along the great silk road. And they had scriptures, carefully voted and ordered by Christian writers, and they belief to a rich taken heritage of learning and educational literacy that far outshine the West.
The early center for those missions endeavors was Antioch in Syria. In the 4th century Lucian of Antioch translated the scriptures into the common language of the people, and these translations formef the basis for the KJV... The received text... We have today. These were unaffected by any possible,. Whether real or imaginary... Alterations subtractions, additions, or other frauds by the Catholic Church. Rome at that time did not have that power or influence.

 

[Cassandra]

With Nicodemus as the author, that comment disappears - it was never heard.

how do you figure this? And do you have any of the early church fathers saying as much?

 

[Brakelite]

With Nicodemus as the author, that comment disappears

Give any literary piece a new author, create circumstances and reasons to justify it, and then you can dispense with all manner of stuff you don't agree with on account of your belief that the "original author" couldn't have written that particular part. Well, it wasn't that text that established the Catholic Church. It was politics and a falling away from truth, just as prophecy said. The text was later used to justify certain aspects of their teachings, in that particular case apostolic succession, but it was only used in a small minority religion in one city.

The Catholic Church didn't grow because of a misconstrued text... It grew in power and influence for numerous reasons, most of them involving political state influences over armies and their generals, sometimes armies who in any other circumstance would have fought each other, but nevertheless opposing factions who warred in favor of papal Rome. Examples are Belisarius whose emperor Justinian favored the bishops of Rome over the Gothic advances that threatened Rome, and Clovis, who just a few years previous led the barbarian Franks against Christian communities in the then vacated regions which were formerly under occupation by imperial Pagan Rome.

Papal Rome grew because pagans were enticed by the rituals and splendor and false promises of glory without the need for repentance. Not really that much different from modern Christianity. The Papacy also grew during the dark ages because it had the very same mindset of today's Vatican: surrender your loyalty to Rome, and you can keep your idols; honor the Pope, and you can keep your traditions... Just incorporate or assimilate some of our Christian rituals into your ancient pagan practices and you will receive your eternal reward. Hence we now have syncretistic pseudo Christian religions everywhere with Catholic overtones.
Today, Catholic apologists repeat the heresies of the early church fathers in justifying their apostasy by interpreting God's word in favor of Catholic teachings. Your Matthew text a case in point. But they've done the same with others, in particular specific prophesies that identify the Catholic papal system as the Antichrist. Sadly, the vast majority of Protestant church leaders have adopted the Catholic prophetic hermeneutics, preterism and futurism, both of which hide the truth of God's word that specifically identified the beast. And they didn't have to change authors to do that.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

I have no love for the Papacy, but I need to pull you up on the above statement. While it is true that during the dark ages, from about the 6th century on, the Catholic Church in Rome certainly produced a lot of fraudulent documents which were claimed as true and used to their advantage for hundreds of years, such as the donation of Constantine, but prior to the 6th century, the Catholic Church's sphere of influence and authority was limited to Alexandria, Rome, and a few satellite towns and villages in a fast diminishing empire, being taken over by Germanic tribes that were converted to Christianity by missionaries that were by no means connected to Rome.
The Goths converted by Wulfilas being one example, and the indigenous Celtic people of Britain and Ireland another.
There were also vast regions to the east unaffected by Roman imperialism, either pagan or papal, that had their own organized mission outposts which established the Christian faith as far east as China, and possibly Japan. By the 13th century there were Christian kingdoms throughout Mongolia, China, Persia, and everywhere along the great silk road. And they had scriptures, carefully voted and ordered by Christian writers, and they belief to a rich taken heritage of learning and educational literacy that far outshine the West.
The early center for those missions endeavors was Antioch in Syria. In the 4th century Lucian of Antioch translated the scriptures into the common language of the people, and these translations formef the basis for the KJV... The received text... We have today. These were unaffected by any possible,. Whether real or imaginary... Alterations subtractions, additions, or other frauds by the Catholic Church. Rome at that time did not have that power or influence.

Do you have any proof? What happened to the Pharisees and religious leaders that took over the church and killed the disciples? What was this organized group called? In Revelation, Jesus called it the synagogue of Satan and prophecy also claimed it grew and spread like wildfire. The way to destroy something is to infiltrate it and take it over. It's happening to our country now and according to prophecy, it happened to the church. How do you explain the Edict of Thessalonica in AD 380?

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

how do you figure this? And do you have any of the early church fathers saying as much?

From analysis of scripture - the only eyewitness and valid documentation that we have.

Based on 1 John, 2 Peter, comments by Paul, and what's written in prophecy, I don't trust a word that the "early church fathers" documented. In addition, from an investigation standpoint, since these men didn't live during the time of the disciples and they had no first-hand eyewitness evidence of anything they claimed, I can't use their words as evidence. All documentation from the early church has been scrubbed by the early church fathers to ensure that Peter was called the head of the church and the RCC popes took his place. The fatal wound referenced in Revelation are the popes who succeeded Peter.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Give any literary piece a new author, create circumstances and reasons to justify it, and then you can dispense with all manner of stuff you don't agree with on account of your belief that the "original author" couldn't have written that particular part. Well, it wasn't that text that established the Catholic Church. It was politics and a falling away from truth, just as prophecy said. The text was later used to justify certain aspects of their teachings, in that particular case apostolic succession, but it was only used in a small minority religion in one city.

The original authors have credibility whereas those made up the Catholics don't. Where is the proof that Matthew, Mark, and Luke could document the story of Jesus? We know John could write so it's not a jump to state that James certainly had the same qualifications. We also know for a fact that Nicodemus as a religious leader could write and Silas as a scribe for Peter could too.

The Catholic Church didn't grow because of a misconstrued text... It grew in power and influence for numerous reasons, most of them involving political state influences over armies and their generals, sometimes armies who in any other circumstance would have fought each other, but nevertheless opposing factions who warred in favor of papal Rome. Examples are Belisarius whose emperor Justinian favored the bishops of Rome over the Gothic advances that threatened Rome, and Clovis, who just a few years previous led the barbarian Franks against Christian communities in the then vacated regions which were formerly under occupation by imperial Pagan Rome.

What happened between your later date and the time of the disciples?

Today, Catholic apologists repeat the heresies of the early church fathers in justifying their apostasy by interpreting God's word in favor of Catholic teachings. Your Matthew text a case in point. But they've done the same with others, in particular specific prophesies that identify the Catholic papal system as the Antichrist. Sadly, the vast majority of Protestant church leaders have adopted the Catholic prophetic hermeneutics, preterism and futurism, both of which hide the truth of God's word that specifically identified the beast.

I agree with you 100%.

And they didn't have to change authors to do that.

Then how did they pull it off? I have provided many details here and the complete analysis in my books, so welcome and will consider any historical evidence that proves otherwise.

 

[Brakelite]

What happened between your later date and the time of the disciples?

The destruction of Jerusalem. The heeded warning from Jesus for His disciples to escape before that destruction. They went to Pella. Antioch. Those Jewish zealots that survived rebelled against Rome and Christians, who worshipped the same God as the Jews, and got caught up in the same melee. So they began to distance themselves from the Jews, and at the same time the Jews instituted prayers in the synagogues that outed the Christians because of blasphemy against Jesus incorporated in the prayers. Christians then began also to gather together on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.
Persecution against Christians began with the Jews. Then when the emperor's realized that Christians refused to worship the Caesars, they began persecuting Christians in earnest. But the gospel was of a greater power than the persecutions of the empire. The "way" as it was then called, grew, expanded. The Galatians that Paul wrote to, were evangelized by the original apostles. Those Galatians were Celtic, and had lived in Asia minor for 300 years. They still traded with their homeland. They were great sailors and business men. There were other Celtic communities throughout Europe, particularly in the south of France, and around northern Italy, in Milan and Turin areas. It was the Celtic Galatians themselves who carried the gospel back to Britain.
When Patrick returned to Ireland to teach the gospel in the latter part of the 4th century, he discovered a well ordered and well organized Celtic Christianity. They already had the full NT in their own languages, speaking and reading the same itala language the scriptures were translated into early in the second century.
By the time of Constantine who made Christianity the state religion for political expediency, and sponsored 50 copies of the Bible, the scriptures had already been disseminated throughout the empire. This was before there was a Catholic Church in Rome. The Christianity of Rome to this point had been slowly trending toward heresy, but was not yet politically motivated. But when Constantine left Rome and made Istanbul the capital of the eastern empire renaming it Constantinople, this left a political void in Rome which the bishops of Rome chose to fill. This was the beginning of the union of church and state that eventually created the Papacy, the harlot who abandoning her true Husband Christ, began an adulterous relationship with the kings and queens of the earth.

The disciples meantime also evangelized other nations to the East. Philip had converted the Ethiopian official as related in the book of Acts, and this began the seed for a powerful Ethiopian Christian community that endured for centuries. Thomas traveled to India and established Christian communities at Goa. These communities shared the gospel with travelers from further east and the north, eventually taking the good news throughout Assyria, Persia, Afghanistan, Mongolia, China, (Series), and the Philippines and everywhere in between.

Do you have any proof?

Many historians have written of these things. One author however has researched these things and in his book has provided quotes and references to historians who testify of these things.
His book is available in PDF form and freely available online. The book is called
Truth Triumphant. Written by B. G. Wilkinson. I highly recommend this book. Here is the preface written by the author himself...

THE author sends forth this book with the hope that it may open a new world to its readers. The prominence given to the Church in the Wilderness in the Scriptures establishes without argumentation the existence of such an organization, and emphasizes its importance. Appealing for attention to this thrilling theme, the writer has sought to bring together in a comprehensive view the forceful, even if at times apparently disjointed, narrative of the Church in the Wilderness in different countries. The cumulative character of the historical proof will be clear to the seeker after truth. Supported by the many converging lines of evidence, the author believes that he has opened new doors into the realm of history in which the providence of God has a most prominent place. While the author has used a great number of original sources, he has also entered into the labors of many scholars and writers who have gone before him. From both these original and secondary sources he has sought to fashion this study. It is his aim that this information will be of value in pointing out present-day deceptions and in revealing the way to meet many insidious teachings. He attempts to make clear man’s present duty in terms of world history. Confident that this book will reveal a new story and throw strong light on the history of God’s people, the author presents this volume. He fervently prays that the promised latter rain of the Holy Spirit will use these pages to enlighten others so that they may share the blessing promised to those who live victoriously in the closing scenes of earth’s history.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

The destruction of Jerusalem. The heeded warning from Jesus for His disciples to escape before that destruction.

What warning from Jesus?

They went to Pella. Antioch. Those Jewish zealots that survived rebelled against Rome and Christians, who worshipped the same God as the Jews, and got caught up in the same melee. So they began to distance themselves from the Jews, and at the same time the Jews instituted prayers in the synagogues that outed the Christians because of blasphemy against Jesus incorporated in the prayers. Christians then began also to gather together on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.

Where did you get the evidence for this?

Persecution against Christians began with the Jews. Then when the emperor's realized that Christians refused to worship the Caesars, they began persecuting Christians in earnest. But the gospel was of a greater power than the persecutions of the empire. The "way" as it was then called, grew, expanded. The Galatians that Paul wrote to, were evangelized by the original apostles. Those Galatians were Celtic, and had lived in Asia minor for 300 years. They still traded with their homeland. They were great sailors and business men. There were other Celtic communities throughout Europe, particularly in the south of France, and around northern Italy, in Milan and Turin areas. It was the Celtic Galatians themselves who carried the gospel back to Britain.
When Patrick returned to Ireland to teach the gospel in the latter part of the 4th century, he discovered a well ordered and well organized Celtic Christianity.

What happened during the previous 350 years?

Many historians have written of these things. One author however has researched these things and in his book has provided quotes and references to historians who testify of these things.
His book is available in PDF form and freely available online. The book is called
Truth Triumphant. Written by B. G. Wilkinson. I highly recommend this book. Here is the preface written by the author himself...

I took a quick look at the write-up for the book, and I don't see that there is going to be any evidence presented. Since you have the book, maybe you can reference some evidence from the book? Documentation?

 

[Brakelite]

What warning from Jesus?

KJV Matthew 24:1-2
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down....


KJV Matthew 24:15-24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.



The destruction of Jerusalem and the religious and political context surrounding that event, was a microcosm of what will be a global issue in the near future.

Where did you get the evidence for this?

It's well documented history.

What happened during the previous 350 years?

Previous to what?

I took a quick look at the write-up for the book, and I don't see that there is going to be any evidence presented.

What kind of evidence are you hoping for? There are historical references for every claim made at the end of every chapter, as well as personal experience and investigation.
In the introduction to his book, another author and historian said,
A much neglected field of study has been opened by the research of the author into the history of the Christian church from its apostolic origins to the close of the eighteenth century. Taking as his thesis the prominence given to the Church in the Wilderness in Bible prophecy, and the fact that ‘“the Church in the Wilderness,’ and not the proud hierarchy enthroned in the world’s great capital, (Rome), was the true church of Christ,” he has spent years developing this subject. In its present form, Truth Triumphant represents much arduous research in the libraries of Europe as well as in America. Excellent ancient sources are most difficult to obtain, but the author has been successful in gaining access to many of them. To crystallize the subject matter and make the historical facts live in modem times, the author also made extensive travels through Europe and Asia. The doctrines of the primitive Christian church spread to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. As grains of mustard seed they lodged in the hearts of many godly souls in southern France and northern Italy — people known as the Albigenses and the Waldenses. The faith of Jesus was valiantly upheld by the Church of the East. This term, as used by the author, not only includes the Syrian and Assyrian Churches, but is also the term applied to the development of apostolic Christianity throughout the lands of the East. The spirit of Christ, burning in the hearts of loyal men who would not compromise with paganism, sent them forth as missionaries to lands afar. Patrick, Columbanus, Marcos, and a host of others were missionaries to distant lands. They braved the ignorance of the barbarian, the intolerance of the apostate church leaders, and the persecution of the state in order that they might win souls to God. To unfold the dangers that were ever present in the conflict of the true church against error, to reveal the sinister working of evil and the divine strength by which men of God made truth triumphant, to challenge the Remnant Church today in its final controversy against the powers of evil, and to show the holy, unchanging message of the Bible as it has been preserved for those who will “fear God, and keep His com mandments” — these are the sincere aims of the author as he presents this book to those who know the truth.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

KJV Matthew 24:1-2
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down....


KJV Matthew 24:15-24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.



The destruction of Jerusalem and the religious and political context surrounding that event, was a microcosm of what will be a global issue in the near future.

It's well documented history.

Previous to what?

What kind of evidence are you hoping for? There are historical references for every claim made at the end of every chapter, as well as personal experience and investigation.
In the introduction to his book, another author and historian said,
A much neglected field of study has been opened by the research of the author into the history of the Christian church from its apostolic origins to the close of the eighteenth century. Taking as his thesis the prominence given to the Church in the Wilderness in Bible prophecy, and the fact that ‘“the Church in the Wilderness,’ and not the proud hierarchy enthroned in the world’s great capital, (Rome), was the true church of Christ,” he has spent years developing this subject. In its present form, Truth Triumphant represents much arduous research in the libraries of Europe as well as in America. Excellent ancient sources are most difficult to obtain, but the author has been successful in gaining access to many of them. To crystallize the subject matter and make the historical facts live in modem times, the author also made extensive travels through Europe and Asia. The doctrines of the primitive Christian church spread to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. As grains of mustard seed they lodged in the hearts of many godly souls in southern France and northern Italy — people known as the Albigenses and the Waldenses. The faith of Jesus was valiantly upheld by the Church of the East. This term, as used by the author, not only includes the Syrian and Assyrian Churches, but is also the term applied to the development of apostolic Christianity throughout the lands of the East. The spirit of Christ, burning in the hearts of loyal men who would not compromise with paganism, sent them forth as missionaries to lands afar. Patrick, Columbanus, Marcos, and a host of others were missionaries to distant lands. They braved the ignorance of the barbarian, the intolerance of the apostate church leaders, and the persecution of the state in order that they might win souls to God. To unfold the dangers that were ever present in the conflict of the true church against error, to reveal the sinister working of evil and the divine strength by which men of God made truth triumphant, to challenge the Remnant Church today in its final controversy against the powers of evil, and to show the holy, unchanging message of the Bible as it has been preserved for those who will “fear God, and keep His com mandments” — these are the sincere aims of the author as he presents this book to those who know the truth.

The reason I ask for proof is because all documentation connecting the disciples to the next generation has been strategically scrubbed and replaced with CATS. Unless that author's data comes from eyewitnesses of the disciples, we've lost the chain of custody. That means that we would be debating speculation and not evidence. I have found NO documentation connecting the disciple to the next generation, so we can't really say what happened except that through prophecy, God predicted this all would happen.

There's been a lot of back and forth debating on the abomination that causes desolation in Daniel and Matthew. Think the worst thing that could ever happen and you've solved it. We've had nuclear bombs and genocide in the millions, so what is the only thing that could be worse?

 

[Brakelite]

We've had nuclear bombs and genocide in the millions, so what is the only thing that could be worse?

A counterfeit Christian church that through the state enforces false worship upon the entire global population.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

A counterfeit Christian church that through the state enforces false worship upon the entire global population.

That already occurred.

 

[Brakelite]

A counterfeit Christian church that through the state enforces false worship upon the entire global population.

That already occurred.

KJV Revelation 13:11-18
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

No, it hasn't happened. Yet. Not globally. Not to the point where all who refuse to worship according to the dictates of this union of church and state are killed. It happened at certain times and in certain places during the dark ages in Europe, but Christianity was then divided, and both sides at different times waged war on the other. But the above quote from Revelation rentals something far more advanced than anything that has gone before.

KJV Daniel 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

KJV Daniel 7:20-22, 25
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

What took place in Europe during the 1260 years of papal political-religio reign, will pale in comparison to what the United States will do to the world in conjunction with the Catholic Church and secret societies. The 3 fold union...
A. The dragon/Satan/kings of the earth (Spiritualism/occult societies etc)...
B. Beast/Papacy
C. The false prophet... Fallen protestant churches of America in union with the state
Will join together and the remnant faithful people of God, those who came out of the Babylonian false system, will be hated of all nations for the sake of the name of Jesus. This is the final ultimate clash between good and evil. The entire world against a small minority group of Christians who choose to worship according to the dictates of conscience and the word of God, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus. Honoring their Creator as opposed to the nations honoring the man of sin in Rome.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

No, it hasn't happened. Yet. Not globally. Not to the point where all who refuse to worship according to the dictates of this union of church and state are killed. It happened at certain times and in certain places during the dark ages in Europe, but Christianity was then divided, and both sides at different times waged war on the other. But the above quote from Revelation rentals something far more advanced than anything that has gone before.

Will join together and the remnant faithful people of God, those who came out of the Babylonian false system, will be hated of all nations for the sake of the name of Jesus. This is the final ultimate clash between good and evil. The entire world against a small minority group of Christians who choose to worship according to the dictates of conscience and the word of God, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus. Honoring their Creator as opposed to the nations honoring the man of sin in Rome.

Yep - Revelation chapter 20. Those following evil will number like the sand on the seashore. And who will they be attacking? It will be hundreds of millions attacking a camp of followers of Jesus - the church is nearly gone in the end as there is hardly any followers of Jesus left. Not much of a battle, heh? So how can this be something that is worse than anything that happened in the past. Also, how does this fit the great rapture and tribulation 'seven' theory?

I have found that Daniel and Revelation are chronological accounts and that the beast was exposed a long time ago - it is not extinct, nor will it be removed until the end, but its power will change over time as decreed by God. Thanks to the beast, confusion has been injected into prophecy to throw everyone off their trail. Have you ever met a fraudster or crook that wanted to be identified?

 

[Brakelite]

Also, how does this fit the great rapture and tribulation 'seven' theory?

Beast doctrine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hello everyone, I’ve now been kicked off three forums because of this subject. I’m a 100% believer in Jesus through scripture, and a nonbeliever in tradition? Why? Because for three years I have conducted very detailed investigations into scripture and proved to myself that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts. Why zero confidence in tradition? Because the investigations proved tradition to be false and 1 John 2:18-19, among other scripture, tells the church not to trust it. Will I be kicked off again or are there interested Christians and seekers of the truth willing to have a logical and facts based discussion on my results that counter “commonly accepted theology” or CAT? I keep running across Christians who can’t seem to realize that a person can 100% believe in scripture to be a dedicated follower of Jesus, while rejecting CAT As false teaching.

Blessings, jaz

Jesus didn't have much time for the traditions of the Pharisees.....

Matt 15:1-3...
"Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: 2 “Why do your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.
3 In reply he said to them: “Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?"

John 15:7-10...
"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

Traditions are merely the commands of men...if it isn't in the Bible reject it.....right?

NONSENSE.
The Scriptures themselves ensure us that Sacred Tradition carries EQUAL weight to Scripture.

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

By the way - the Canon of Scripture is a Sacred Tradition.
The Bible does NOT give us a list of Books that belong in it. That was determined by the Holy Spirit through His CHURCH.

 

[Aunty Jane]

NONSENSE.
The Scriptures themselves ensure us that Sacred Tradition carries EQUAL weight to Scripture.

I guess that depends on what “traditions” are “sacred” then, doesn’t it? The “traditions” of the Pharisees were unacceptable to the son of God, so what “traditions” was he referring to? The ones that were adopted as if they were “sacred” when in actual fact, Jesus said that they invalidated the worship they practiced and imposed on others. (Matt 15:7-9)

To accept what God never authorized, is to accept NONSENSE as truth.

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Yes, the “traditions“ taught by those who were taught directly by Jesus….not from imposters who came later and steered “the church” in a whole other direction. Scripture is scripture, and it is not the words of men, but “the word of God”.
The words of those who pretended to be “apostles” in the following centuries hold no importance for anyone but those who accept what “the church” became, and swallowed the lies it taught in the ensuing centuries. The fact that a huge percentage of church doctrine was introduced hundreds of years after Christ and his apostles died, tells us something, especially in the light of what Paul wrote in Hebrews 1:1-4…

“In previous times, God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways through the Prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he created the universe. He is the reflection of God’s glory and the perfect expression of his very being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. Achieving purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So he became as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.” (NCB)

Just in that brief passage Paul tells us that God spoke to his people through his prophets in Bible times, and in the first century he spoke through his son…..we are not told to expect to be taught by anyone else since all that his apostles taught was from Jehovah, the one who taught his son. No one was authorized to teach anything other than what Jesus taught.
It was Jesus’ own prediction that Christianity would be corrupted, (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) so what makes us think that Jesus’ words did not come true? What people accept as “Christianity” today is a poor and corrupt imitation of the original faith. And the rot set in not long after the death of Christ…..Paul said it was beginning in the first century.
“As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we beg you, brethren: Let no one deceive you in any way. . . . . That Day cannot come before the final rebellion occurs and the lawless one is revealed, the son of destruction. . . . .He is the adversary who sets himself in opposition to, and exalts himself above, every so-called god or object of worship, and who even seats himself in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who restrains it will continue to do so until he is removed. Then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him by the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming. and in every wicked deception designed for those who are perishing because they refused to accept the love of the truth and thereby gain salvation. His coming will be the work of Satan made manifest in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, For this reason, God imposes on them a powerful delusion. They believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth but instead have taken pleasure in wickedness will be condemned.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1,3,7-12 NCB)

The proof of that is the divided mess that claims to be “Christianity” today……”a powerful delusion” where there are literally thousands of denominations all claiming to be “Christian”….but who teach different doctrines.
When I was growing up, the Catholic church claimed superiority in a climate where fear and ignorance was used to keep people in line, no questions asked.….no one was allowed to question the church.
“Hell” is a scary control tool in the arsenal.….retained by Protestantism along with the other core doctrines that “the church“ taught after ditching Mary as “the mother of God” and “purgatory” as a place where dead people go in spite of the fact that no Catholic doctrine or tradition are found in scripture.

It appears to me that Catholicism is just a remodeled form of what the Pharisees taught to the Jews….based more on man-made traditions that on the word of God. But if that is your preference, then that is your choice…..it is definitely not mine.

By the way - the Canon of Scripture is a Sacred Tradition.

NONSENSE…

The Bible does NOT give us a list of Books that belong in it. That was determined by the Holy Spirit through His CHURCH.

Yes, the Bible canon was determined by God’s spirit…..but through the only “church” that was in existence at the time. God has used even his enemies in times past to accomplish his will…..he can use even an apostate church to give his word to the world….although that was not what happened, was it? The “church” kept the Bible from the common man under the pretense that only the priests could have access to to it. What a great set-up to keep people in fear and ignorance for centuries!

Is that what Jesus did? Did he burn those at the stake because the Grand Inquisitor deemed them to be heretics? Did he torture confessions out of victims of lies? Please don’t preach to me about “his church” because I don’t believe that Christ ever set foot in that wicked establishment.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I guess that depends on what “traditions” are “sacred” then, doesn’t it? The “traditions” of the Pharisees were unacceptable to the son of God, so what “traditions” was he referring to? The ones that were adopted as if they were “sacred” when in actual fact, Jesus said that they invalidated the worship they practiced and imposed on others. (Matt 15:7-9)

To accept what God never authorized, is to accept NONSENSE as truth.

Yes, the “traditions“ taught by those who were taught directly by Jesus….not from imposters who came later and steered “the church” in a whole other direction. Scripture is scripture, and it is not the words of men, but “the word of God”.
The words of those who pretended to be “apostles” in the following centuries hold no importance for anyone but those who accept what “the church” became, and swallowed the lies it taught in the ensuing centuries. The fact that a huge percentage of church doctrine was introduced hundreds of years after Christ and his apostles died, tells us something, especially in the light of what Paul wrote in Hebrews 1:1-4…

“In previous times, God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways through the Prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he created the universe. He is the reflection of God’s glory and the perfect expression of his very being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. Achieving purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So he became as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.” (NCB)

Just in that brief passage Paul tells us that God spoke to his people through his prophets in Bible times, and in the first century he spoke through his son…..we are not told to expect to be taught by anyone else since all that his apostles taught was from Jehovah, the one who taught his son. No one was authorized to teach anything other than what Jesus taught.
It was Jesus’ own prediction that Christianity would be corrupted, (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) so what makes us think that Jesus’ words did not come true? What people accept as “Christianity” today is a poor and corrupt imitation of the original faith. And the rot set in not long after the death of Christ…..Paul said it was beginning in the first century.
“As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we beg you, brethren: Let no one deceive you in any way. . . . . That Day cannot come before the final rebellion occurs and the lawless one is revealed, the son of destruction. . . . .He is the adversary who sets himself in opposition to, and exalts himself above, every so-called god or object of worship, and who even seats himself in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who restrains it will continue to do so until he is removed. Then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him by the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming. and in every wicked deception designed for those who are perishing because they refused to accept the love of the truth and thereby gain salvation. His coming will be the work of Satan made manifest in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, For this reason, God imposes on them a powerful delusion. They believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth but instead have taken pleasure in wickedness will be condemned.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1,3,7-12 NCB)

The proof of that is the divided mess that claims to be “Christianity” today……”a powerful delusion” where there are literally thousands of denominations all claiming to be “Christian”….but who teach different doctrines.
When I was growing up, the Catholic church claimed superiority in a climate where fear and ignorance was used to keep people in line, no questions asked.….no one was allowed to question the church.
“Hell” is a scary control tool in the arsenal.….retained by Protestantism along with the other core doctrines that “the church“ taught after ditching Mary as “the mother of God” and “purgatory” as a place where dead people go in spite of the fact that no Catholic doctrine or tradition are found in scripture.

It appears to me that Catholicism is just a remodeled form of what the Pharisees taught to the Jews….based more on man-made traditions that on the word of God. But if that is your preference, then that is your choice…..it is definitely not mine.

The traditions that Jesus condemned were those that nullified the Word of God.

This is NOT the case with Sacred Tradition, which Paul puts on par with Scripture – or even minor traditions which are not binding.

Hell is a BIBLICAL reality (Isa. 33:11, 14, Mark 9:47–48, Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46, Luke 3:16-17, 2 Thess. 1:6-9).

Purgatory (Final Purification) is also a BIBLICAL reality (2 Macc. 12:42-46, Matt. 5:25-26, 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35, Luke 12:58-59).

NONSENSE…

REALLY??

Show me the list FROM Scripture.

Yes, the Bible canon was determined by God’s spirit…..but through the only “church” that was in existence at the time. God has used even his enemies in times past to accomplish his will…..he can use even an apostate church to give his word to the world….although that was not what happened, was it? The “church” kept the Bible from the common man under the pretense that only the priests could have access to to it. What a great set-up to keep people in fear and ignorance for centuries!

Is that what Jesus did? Did he burn those at the stake because the Grand Inquisitor deemed them to be heretics? Did he torture confessions out of victims of lies? Please don’t preach to me about “his church” because I don’t believe that Christ ever set foot in that wicked establishment.

WOW. A load of ignorance to be sure.
Time for a History Lesson . . .

The Printing Press wasn’t even invented until the 15th century. Before that – Bibles were HANDWRITTEN, were very expensive to reproduce and took YEARS to copy down. Because of this – they were very difficult to acquire and had to be chained to pulpits for fear of theft.

It might also interest you to know that the vast majority of the population was functionally ILLITERATE until the 19th century. So, eve if EVERYONE owned a Bible – they wouldn’t have been able to READ it.

As for WHO declared the Canon of Scripture – it was Christ’s Church.

Yes, God may use a wicked source like Pharoah to fulfill His will – but He NEVER uses wicked sources to reveal His sacred Word - because the Word IS His Son, Jesus.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The traditions that Jesus condemned were those that nullified the Word of God.

Indeed, and the “traditions” promoted by “the church”, which Jesus said would be corrupted, and which the apostles said was an “apostasy” “already at work” in the first century, “nullifies the word of God”......so history attests to the fact that what these original authorities of Christian teaching spoke about, actually took place and that the church system we have now, is a product of that apostasy.

Deny it if you wish.

This is NOT the case with Sacred Tradition, which Paul puts on par with Scripture – or even minor traditions which are not binding.

Hell is a BIBLICAL reality (Isa. 33:11, 14, Mark 9:47–48, Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46, Luke 3:16-17, 2 Thess. 1:6-9).

Let’s explore these verses then....
Isaiah 33:11, 14 are completely out of harmony with ancient Jewish belief about death and the condition of the dead. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 115:17) If the dead are in a state of unconsciousness when thought processes have ceased, then “hell” is nothing more than the grave, which is the English translation of “Sheol” in Hebrew.
As for Mark 9:47-48 and Matthew 25:31-34.....seriously, you don’t know the difference between “hades” and “Gehenna”?
“Gehenna” is a figurative place because Jesus never taught that the soul is immortal and can survive the death of the body. The soul dies (Ezek 18:4)
The fires of Gehenna are representative of what Jews were taught from their scripture.....not immortality of the soul but resurrection of the dead at a future time. Gehenna was Jerusalem’s rubbish dump where the bodies of those who were not considered worthy of a decent burial were cast for disposal, in a place where fire was kept burning day and night to consume the refuse....what the fires missed the maggots finished off......that is your “hellfire”....not a literal place at all. It meant that these would never be resurrected.....too wicked to see life again.

What kind of loving God would burn people alive forever.....?! The very thought is wicked!

Christendom is a mirror image of apostate Israel.
God said through Jeremiah....
“For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. (Jeremiah 7:30-31)
Why would God burn his own children in a fire when he said that thought this had never come into his heart? Your God is certainly not my God.

Purgatory (Final Purification) is also a BIBLICAL reality (2 Macc. 12:42-46, Matt. 5:25-26, 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35, Luke 12:58-59).

Matt 5:29-30 (which I think you meant rather than vs 25-26) taken from the Jewish perspective, being “pitched into Gehenna” (not hell) was the figurative way of saying that there would be no future for those wicked individuals. They were human garbage in God’s eyes as are all who mislead those who are following the wrong leadership. Jesus said that the Pharisees were not going into the Kingdom and that they prevented other from entering too. (Matt 23: 15, 25, 33)

1 Cor 3:12-15.....You think every mention of fire is “hell”? Fire is also used to refine and to test....
The fires of Gehenna are everlasting because the death experienced in that place never ends.
Matt 18:32-35.....where is “hell” in those verses? The master of the slave would hand that unforgiving slave over to the jailers (who were called “tormentors” because of how they mistreated their inmates.)
Not sure what Luke 12: 58-59 has to do with purgatory. This is a Catholic invention, like hellfire...certainly not biblical.

WOW. A load of ignorance to be sure.
Time for a History Lesson . . .

The Printing Press wasn’t even invented until the 15th century. Before that – Bibles were HANDWRITTEN, were very expensive to reproduce and took YEARS to copy down. Because of this – they were very difficult to acquire and had to be chained to pulpits for fear of theft.

It might also interest you to know that the vast majority of the population was functionally ILLITERATE until the 19th century. So, eve if EVERYONE owned a Bible – they wouldn’t have been able to READ it.

As for WHO declared the Canon of Scripture – it was Christ’s Church.

Well, that’s the excuse anyway, but it certainly does not explain why the person along with their copy of the scriptures was burned alive at the stake.....where did Jesus ever authorise humans to do such a thing?

Where will I find a “pope” in original Christianity? Where will I find a “Grand Inquisitor? Where are those in authority in the original church doing anything but excommunicating a person for what was deemed heresy?
Where is the justification for the heinous instruments of torture?

Yes, God may use a wicked source like Pharoah to fulfill His will – but He NEVER uses wicked sources to reveal His sacred Word - because the Word IS His Son, Jesus.

Amen......he will NEVER use wicked sources to reveal his sacred word.....
When the judgment comes and Jesus says to the fake Christians, “I NEVER knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness”....he will mean it. He has never set foot in the counterfeit “Christianity” created by the devil all those centuries ago. The disunited mess that is Christendom was never genuine Christianity from its beginnings, and its evolution into what we see now is proof that Christ was never present.....the holy spirit unites....it does not divide Christians.

If we can’t tell the difference, then John 6:44, 65 are in play. We have not been ‘invited’.

 

[Brakelite]

The traditions that Jesus condemned were those that nullified the Word of God.

This is NOT the case with Sacred Tradition, which Paul puts on par with Scripture – or even minor traditions which are not binding

Yet your church took that a step further BoL, in many instances by starting traditions a long time after the scriptures were written, and then in hindsight claiming them to be sacred, on account of the church having authority to do so. Even traditions that nullify the very word of God.
Then your church had to establish a protocol whereby they needed to justify the contradictions those traditions created. So they invented a magisterium and a system that demanded God could not nor would ever lower and humble Himself to speak to individual children but only through a select group of exalted senior clerics, who would then act as mediators teach, and interpret scripture on behalf of the common man. In other words, the average Catholic's final authority on what constitutes truth is not the word of God, not even the quoted words of Jesus plainly stated, but the opinion of the priest, be he a practitioner of witchcraft, the father of a dozen illegitimate children, or the murderer of Christians. Those interpretations therefore were offered in defense of error and false doctrine, the word of God made out to be lies, and God an inconsistent confused deity who doesn't know what He's doing.
So your church honors a very different God to that which is portrayed in scripture, the Jesus who never changes and the God who declares
KJV Psalms 119:89
89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

KJV Psalms 119:130
130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

KJV Mark 7:7-9
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the (4th) commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do, (including a counterfeit day of rest)
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.