Tradition Versus Scripture

[Johann]

Did you read the article? If so, what in the article did they get wrong?

Would this be better? Why Ritual Is Important

Much better-don't sound so aloof.

Your intention here is not to persuade your friend that the offering of Christ’s one sacrifice in the Mass is the highest form of worship. That’s for another time. Your intention is simply to show that we are “naturally hardwired” for ritual, and ritual in the form of sacrifice is most befitting when it comes to the worship of God. Given this, your friend ought to at least see the reasonableness of the rituals of Catholic worship.

Not all here are Catholics.
J.

 

[Marymog]

Much better-don't sound so aloof.

Your intention here is not to persuade your friend that the offering of Christ’s one sacrifice in the Mass is the highest form of worship. That’s for another time. Your intention is simply to show that we are “naturally hardwired” for ritual, and ritual in the form of sacrifice is most befitting when it comes to the worship of God. Given this, your friend ought to at least see the reasonableness of the rituals of Catholic worship.

Not all here are Catholics.
J.

Thanks Johann,

As a disciple of Christ my intention here is to speak the Truth (John 8:31-32), expose lies (Ephesians 5:11) and defend The Church which is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15). If "offering of Christ’s one sacrifice in the Mass (as) the highest form of worship" is the Truth....then my intention is to speak it.

However, I don't think that Aunty Jane and I have broached that subject......

 

[Johann]

Thanks Johann,

As a disciple of Christ my intention here is to speak the Truth (John 8:31-32), expose lies (Ephesians 5:11) and defend The Church which is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15). If "offering of Christ’s one sacrifice in the Mass (as) the highest form of worship" is the Truth....then my intention is to speak it.

However, I don't think that Aunty Jane and I have broached that subject......

Well, as you may notice-I am not dogmatic.
J.

 

[Marymog]

Well, as you may notice-I am not dogmatic.
J.

I noticed.

Scripture is dogmatic though.

 

[Johann]

I noticed.

Scripture is dogmatic though.

Full of Imperatives-to be heeded and obeyed at once-no questions asked.
The nomos/entole/Chok of Messiah.

In Moshiach you also, having heard the message of HaEmes, the Besuras HaGeulah of Yeshu'at Eloheinu which is yours, having also come to emunah, received your chotam (seal) in Moshiach with the Ruach Hakodesh of havtachah (promise)

You too, as you have heard the message of the truth, the good news that means your salvation, and as you have trusted in Him too, have been stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit, -

 

[Brakelite]

And unless you can show me a SINGLE teaching from the Catechism – in ANY century – that Jesus is NOT the head of the Church and that we are supposed to worship someone else – you are just vomiting out your usual manure . . .

Jesus is certainly the Head of the church. But your church walked away from Him and trusted in the kings and queens of the earth to enforce her teachings rather than preaching the simple gospel.

Rev, 11:8 speaks of “the great city” where the “Lord was crucified,”.
As you know - this is obviously Jerusalem

Obviously. Too obvious, obviously when the scriptures have so much symbolism to portray truths to those who have ears to hear.

Was the Tower of Babel built before the Flood?
Your “prophetess” says it was.
“This system was corrupted before the flood by those who separated themselves from the faithful followers of God, and engaged in the building of the tower of Babel.” (Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p.301).

The Bible CLEARLY says otherwise (Gen 10:32;11:4).

She didn't say the tower was built before the flood. That's the kind of stupid conclusion you come to when you read one small passage and ignore everything else she said on the matter. Do you honestly think she would get something so wrong as if she had never read scripture?
The quote you have there said, the system was corrupted before the flood... She is not saying the tower was built then. She wrote a book called Patriarchs and Prophets. I suggest you read it to find the truth of what she really taught and believed and stop blowing hot air.

Was the man Jesus Christ also truly God?
NOT according to your Wolf in sheep’s clothing
“The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty.” (Letter 32, 1999, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, p.1129).

However - the Bible CLEARLY says that He was: (Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Matt. 4:7, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 15:9, John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4, 2 Cor. 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Titus 2:13)

We aren't allowed to discuss the trinity here. Almighty God is God the Father. Jesus is the Son of God. That's all I'll say.

Was the atonement for sin completed at the cross?
NOT according to your false teacher]
“Instead of…Daniel 8:14 referring to the purifying of the earth, it was now plain that it pointed to the closing work of our High Priest in heaven, the finishing of the atonement, and the preparing of the people to abide the day of His coming.” (Testimonies, Vol. 1, p.58).

“Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly sanctuary, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation.” (Early Writings, p.253).

She is right. The atonement was not complete at the cross. The OT sanctuary service should have taught you that, with its types and symbols and feasts. The first feast was Passover, which represented Calvary. After the lamb was slain, the blood was taken into the sanctuary where the priests would minister before the veil. On the day of atonement, the High Priest entered into the Holy of holies and minister a special ritual which typified Christ's mediation in the Holy of holies in heaven. The atonement is not complete without His ministry as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, just as the round of sacrifices and rituals and feasts weren't complete until the Day of Atonement for Israel.

That's why I'm leaving this Forum-the deity of our Lord is under attack-
J.

There is no question concerning the deity of Jesus from me. He is every bit as much God as His Father... Except in rank. Everything the Father is, so also is the Son. Everything the Father possessed, including His name, Jehovah, He gave to His Son. Which is what Ellen White was alluding to. Elsewhere she clearly declares Jesus is God. BoL is shooting from the hip with the understanding of a mushroom.

 

[Brakelite]

This list is the basis for renowned Protestant historian J.N.D.

Interesting that Protestant historians you agree with are 'renowned', while those who are critical of your church are liars and anti Catholic heretics. Neither of the above training based on actual history, only on your personal animus.
Whatever you Catholic bias toward those you agree with, it still remains a fact that there was no other power in history to grow from Pagan Rome at the time of its abandonment of western Europe other than the papacy. The little horn of Daniel 7 is papal Rome. It can be no other.

 

[Illuminator]

Interesting that Protestant historians you agree with are 'renowned', while those who are critical of your church are liars and anti Catholic heretics.

Because those critical of the CC are not historians, they are revisionists and so are you. You don't like it when we cite Protestant historians because it shows a lack of bias.

Neither of the above training based on actual history, only on your personal animus.

Your "actual history" is fear based illusions that you cannot support with reputable peer-reviewed historians, so you dismiss all of them.

Whatever you Catholic bias toward those you agree with, it still remains a fact that there was no other power in history to grow from Pagan Rome at the time of its abandonment of western Europe other than the papacy. The little horn of Daniel 7 is papal Rome. It can be no other.

I'm still waiting for you to prove any emperor taught from the Chair of Peter, which is what you are suggesting. From the sublime to the ridiculous. The Catholic Pagan Roman Church is a joke.

" The little horn of Daniel 7"
you interpret everything through the lens of occultic channeling, you have no credibility.

Daniel 2:44 NKJV

And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [a]break in pieces and [b]consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.​

Dan. 2:44 – Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom, the Church, is indestructible.

Fashioning weapons from Scripture to attack the Church is a form of witchcraft, IMO.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Further, Revelation 11:8 speaks of “the great city” where the “Lord was crucified,” the Old Testament speaks of Jerusalem as a whore (Isa. 1:21; Ezek. 16:1, 15–35), and the whore is the antithesis of the bride of Christ, the “New Jerusalem” (Rev. 21:2–22:5), suggesting the old Jerusalem.

Both identifications are possible, but neither fits the Catholic Church. Indeed, according to the standard anti-Catholic theory, the Catholic Church did not exist in the first century and thus could not persecute the apostles, as the whore did (Rev. 18:20).

That's a great point.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Daniel 2:44 NKJV​

​

And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [a]break in pieces and [b]consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.​

Dan. 2:44 – Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom, the Church, is indestructible.

Fashioning weapons from Scripture to attack the Church is a form of witchcraft, IMO.

Daniel’s prophesies were written about “the time of the end”, and the “days of these kings” that he referred to in this forecast about the future, are the days of the last world powers in existence before the ‘coming’ of the Kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray for.….one that will “never be destroyed” and that will “stand forever”.
In order to understand Daniel’s prophesies, you have to identify those “kings”, and what the coming of a kingdom that will “break to pieces and consume all these kingdoms” means for the world of that time.

Tracing the world powers that Daniel foretold, we see that the Babylonian Empire was the beginning of this prophesy. We know from scripture that Medo Persia conquered Babylon in exactly the way Daniel foretold, with Isaiah even naming the conqueror, recorded well over one and a half centuries before Cyrus’ rise to power. This time period was called “the Gentile times” (a time when God’s nation would be dominated by Gentile powers) and it was to run its course until the time of the end.

The Persian Empire was overtaken by Greece…..then Rome (ruling whilst Jesus walked the earth) then when Rome fell, Britain emerged from the ashes to rule many parts of the world. We are living in the time of the final world powers, the Anglo American and its rival, the Eastern block of nations…..in a world divided and aligned with one of these two world powers. It is in the days of these last world powers that God’s kingdom “comes” to put everything to right by eliminating these divisive powers from existence.…and replacing them as mankind’s only ruling body.

This is what Jesus taught us to pray for…..for God’s Kingdom to “come” and for his will to be “done on earth as it is in heaven.“ That can only happen when all the divisive things of this world are taken down and God’s rulership is reinstated. We were meant to be ruled by our Creator from the beginning, so his kingdom is a restoration of all that he purposed in the beginning, before the rebellion of many of God’s spirit sons and the fall of man. So misunderstanding Bible prophesy and misinterpreting scripture will leave you completely unprepared for what is coming……and soon, if we look at what was foretold and what the world scene was to look like at the time of Christ’s return. (Matthew 24-3-14; 2 Timothy 3:1-5)

God only reveals his truth to those who are genuine in their desire to please him by understanding why he put humans on this earth in the first place…..the church system seems to have missed that memo. You can only understand the end, by going back to the beginning.

Our obedience to God’s word reveals to him, who we are. (Matt 7:21-23)
When the judgment comes, “many” will find themselves on the wrong road. (Matt 7:13-14)

 

[Brakelite]

Because those critical of the CC are not historians, they are revisionists and so are you. You don't like it when we cite Protestant historians because it shows a lack of bias.

How hypocritical. When I cite Catholic sources you are dismissive because "they are just one individual" and "all churches have sinners in them". And you are correct that I don't trust all Protestant historians, because many so called historians/scholars etc are no more than Catholic apologists in disguise. Henry Newman a classic example.

I'm still waiting for you to prove any emperor taught from the Chair of Peter, which is what you are suggesting.

I am suggesting no such thing. Throughout Christian history there were times that the kings of the earth dominated the church, at other times vice versa. They became united by marriage.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom, the Church, is indestructible.

Wrong. Jesus tells us His kingdom is not of this world. The kingdom of God is within us, not imposed on us by the dictates of men, be they clerics or secular politicians.

 

[Johann]

Your "actual history" is fear based illusions that you cannot support with reputable peer-reviewed historians, so you dismiss all of them.

Just for Catholics: Resources

Articles about distinctive Catholic doctrines, and several e-Books to download for free. Also, suggested links to evangelical ministries to Catholics, good evangelical websites, and books.

www.justforcatholics.org

Feel free to peruse this site.

 

[Johann]

How hypocritical. When I cite Catholic sources you are dismissive because "they are just one individual" and "all churches have sinners in them". And you are correct that I don't trust all Protestant historians, because many so called historians/scholars etc are no more than Catholic apologists in disguise. Henry Newman a classic example.

I am suggesting no such thing. Throughout Christian history there were times that the kings of the earth dominated the church, at other times vice versa. They became united by marriage.

Wrong. Jesus tells us His kingdom is not of this world. The kingdom of God is within us, not imposed on us by the dictates of men, be they clerics or secular politicians.

Some guidelines.

ABC's of Effective Witnessing to Catholics

Many of the 70 million Catholics in America were born into their religion and have never examined their faith through the lens of Scripture. From infancy they are taught that salvation comes through their church as they merit saving grace through the sacraments and perform religious rituals and good works to be justified and re-justified.

Roman Catholicism is often called the plus religion because of what it has added to the Gospel of grace. Catholic salvation is based on Jesus plus Mary, faith plus works, grace plus merit, Scripture plus tradition and the blood of Jesus plus purgatory. Catholics do not know that any addition to the Gospel is a denial of the sufficiency of Christ (Heb. 7:25). Any addition to the Gospel also nullifies the saving grace of God, which is the only means by which God saves sinners (Romans 11:6). Catholics, who are victims of this deception, need to be evangelized with the true Gospel of grace.

As we witness to Catholics we must persevere with patience to untangle the sticky web of religious indoctrination that holds them captive (Col. 2:8). We must follow the instructions of Paul and "not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, and correcting opponents with gentleness." We must pray for God to "grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth," that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, who holds them captive to do his will (2 Tim. 2:24-26).

The two most important biblical principles to remember as you witness are to: 1) establish Scripture as the supreme authority for truth (2 Tim. 3:15-17) and 2) proclaim the Lord Jesus as the all-sufficient Savior (Heb. 7:25; Acts 4:12).

Following are some other important biblical principles as you witness to Catholics:

Proclaim Jesus and His Word as the most trustworthy source for truth (John 14:6; 17:17; 18:37).

Discuss how sin has condemned every man under God's righteous judgment (Rom. 3:10-18; Heb. 9:27; Rev. 20:14).

Show that the Scriptures are sufficient for knowing and understanding how to be saved (2 Tim. 3:15).

Define the Gospel and its divine power to save (Romans 1:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 2:1-10).

Warn of the fatal consequences for anyone who teaches or believes a different gospel (Gal. 1:6- 9).

Show that no man or pope is infallible. Peter (who Catholics believe was their first pope) admitted he was wrong (Gal. 2:11-14).

Warn of the danger of following non-apostolic traditions (Mark 7:7-8, 13; Col. 2:8).

Explain the need to repent from what they have been doing to save themselves including the sacraments, the sacrifice of the mass, purgatory, indulgences, other mediators, good works and infant baptism. These nullify God's grace and deny the finished and all-sufficient work of Christ.

Stay focused on the Gospel, avoid going off on tangents that are unrelated to salvation (1 Cor. 2:2).

Sow the imperishable seed of God's Word with Gospel tracts (1 Pet 1:23).

Pray for their salvation (Rom. 10:1-4).

Remember that every sinner must repent and believe the Gospel to be saved (Mark 1:15). The only way to heaven is through Christ, and the only way to come to Christ is God's way - with repentance and empty hands of faith.

 

[Brakelite]

Some guidelines.

ABC's of Effective Witnessing to Catholics

Many of the 70 million Catholics in America were born into their religion and have never examined their faith through the lens of Scripture. From infancy they are taught that salvation comes through their church as they merit saving grace through the sacraments and perform religious rituals and good works to be justified and re-justified.

Roman Catholicism is often called the plus religion because of what it has added to the Gospel of grace. Catholic salvation is based on Jesus plus Mary, faith plus works, grace plus merit, Scripture plus tradition and the blood of Jesus plus purgatory. Catholics do not know that any addition to the Gospel is a denial of the sufficiency of Christ (Heb. 7:25). Any addition to the Gospel also nullifies the saving grace of God, which is the only means by which God saves sinners (Romans 11:6). Catholics, who are victims of this deception, need to be evangelized with the true Gospel of grace.

As we witness to Catholics we must persevere with patience to untangle the sticky web of religious indoctrination that holds them captive (Col. 2:8). We must follow the instructions of Paul and "not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, and correcting opponents with gentleness." We must pray for God to "grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth," that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, who holds them captive to do his will (2 Tim. 2:24-26).

The two most important biblical principles to remember as you witness are to: 1) establish Scripture as the supreme authority for truth (2 Tim. 3:15-17) and 2) proclaim the Lord Jesus as the all-sufficient Savior (Heb. 7:25; Acts 4:12).

Following are some other important biblical principles as you witness to Catholics:

Proclaim Jesus and His Word as the most trustworthy source for truth (John 14:6; 17:17; 18:37).

Discuss how sin has condemned every man under God's righteous judgment (Rom. 3:10-18; Heb. 9:27; Rev. 20:14).

Show that the Scriptures are sufficient for knowing and understanding how to be saved (2 Tim. 3:15).

Define the Gospel and its divine power to save (Romans 1:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 2:1-10).

Warn of the fatal consequences for anyone who teaches or believes a different gospel (Gal. 1:6- 9).

Show that no man or pope is infallible. Peter (who Catholics believe was their first pope) admitted he was wrong (Gal. 2:11-14).

Warn of the danger of following non-apostolic traditions (Mark 7:7-8, 13; Col. 2:8).

Explain the need to repent from what they have been doing to save themselves including the sacraments, the sacrifice of the mass, purgatory, indulgences, other mediators, good works and infant baptism. These nullify God's grace and deny the finished and all-sufficient work of Christ.

Stay focused on the Gospel, avoid going off on tangents that are unrelated to salvation (1 Cor. 2:2).

Sow the imperishable seed of God's Word with Gospel tracts (1 Pet 1:23).

Pray for their salvation (Rom. 10:1-4).

Remember that every sinner must repent and believe the Gospel to be saved (Mark 1:15). The only way to heaven is through Christ, and the only way to come to Christ is God's way - with repentance and empty hands of faith.

Good stuff. As you may be aware, the Catholics on this forum are not your ordinary every day Catholic believers. I was raised and educated Catholic. I considered myself a staunch Catholic Christian until 23 years of age when I invited Jesus to make my life one He would approve of. I never met a Catholic such as we have here. Not even the priests who taught us, coached us in sport , drank with us in the pubs, and served with us at the altar, were as educated in Catholic apologetics as we have here in BoL, MoG, and Illuminator. Those 3 are exceptional in their knowledge and communicating skills. Each one different and unique in their modus operandi, their use of language and grammar, and the mind games they each play in order to dominate the discussion. I do not always handle such discussions with the patience, and understanding that's needed. There are other Catholics here, who are simply here for fellowship and chats, with whom I do take a much softer stance.
But I get your message. I agree that my approach could certainly do with some refining. I will give this some serious consideration and prayer.

 

[Johann]

Good stuff. As you may be aware, the Catholics on this forum are not your ordinary every day Catholic believers. I was raised and educated Catholic. I considered myself a staunch Catholic Christian until 23 years of age when I invited Jesus to make my life one He would approve of. I never met a Catholic such as we have here. Not even the priests who taught us, coached us in sport , drank with us in the pubs, and served with us at the altar, were as educated in Catholic apologetics as we have here in BoL, MoG, and Illuminator. Those 3 are exceptional in their knowledge and communicating skills. Each one different and unique in their modus operandi, their use of language and grammar, and the mind games they each play in order to dominate the discussion. I do not always handle such discussions with the patience, and understanding that's needed. There are other Catholics here, who are simply here for fellowship and chats, with whom I do take a much softer stance.
But I get your message. I agree that my approach could certainly do with some refining. I will give this some serious consideration and prayer.

If you are interested-

ABC's of Effective Witnessing to Catholics

How to witness

Mike Gendor an ex-Catholic-involved with Catholicism for over 35 years-

http://www.justforcatholics.org/--another site
One Mediator

An infinite chasm separates the Holy God from sinful man. Left to
our own resources we could never reach Him who dwells in the
highest heaven, but praise be to God who Himself opened a way
that reaches from heaven to earth. God’s bridge is His Son, Jesus
Christ, who brings lost sinners back to the Almighty God. “For
there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the
Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all.”219 With the
Word of God open before us, we can answer the following crucial

questions:

Question: How many mediators are there between God and
man?
Answer: There is one Mediator.
96

Question: Who is this Mediator?
Answer: Jesus Christ.

Question: Why is He alone the Mediator?

Answer: Because He gave Himself a ransom for all.
Nothing complicated here. There is one Mediator. In spite of
Scripture’s plain language, the Catholic Church maintains that
Mary fulfils a role as “mediatrix” too.

In the Catechism we read:

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but
by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of
eternal salvation... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the
Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and
Mediatrix.”220 She is even called “the Mediatrix of all graces.”221
Sadly this doctrine is a departure from the plain teaching of
God’s Word: there is one mediator, Jesus, and not Mary or
anybody else.

Other Mediators?
During the marriage at Cana, as soon as Mary came to know
about the lack of wine, she approached the Lord and informed
Him of the need. During Christ’s public ministry, the disciples and
the Jewish people often came to Him, making various requests. In
the same way, Christians pray to the Lord for each other’s needs.
However, when we pray for each other we do not become
mediators. Jesus alone is mediator because He alone gave
himself on the cross as a ransom, paying the price for the liberty
97
of His people (“one Mediator between God and men, the Man
Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all”).

God bless brother

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

J.

 

[Illuminator]

Some guidelines.

ABC's of Effective Witnessing to Catholics

Many of the 70 million Catholics in America were born into their religion and have never examined their faith through the lens of Scripture. From infancy they are taught that salvation comes through their church as they merit saving grace through the sacraments and perform religious rituals and good works to be justified and re-justified.

Anti-Catholic nonsense.

Roman Catholicism is often called the plus religion because of what it has added to the Gospel of grace. Catholic salvation is based on Jesus plus Mary, faith plus works, grace plus merit, Scripture plus tradition and the blood of Jesus plus purgatory. Catholics do not know that any addition to the Gospel is a denial of the sufficiency of Christ (Heb. 7:25). Any addition to the Gospel also nullifies the saving grace of God, which is the only means by which God saves sinners (Romans 11:6). Catholics, who are victims of this deception, need to be evangelized with the true Gospel of grace.

As we witness to Catholics we must persevere with patience to untangle the sticky web of religious indoctrination that holds them captive (Col. 2:8). We must follow the instructions of Paul and "not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, and correcting opponents with gentleness." We must pray for God to "grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth," that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, who holds them captive to do his will (2 Tim. 2:24-26).

The two most important biblical principles to remember as you witness are to: 1) establish Scripture as the supreme authority for truth (2 Tim. 3:15-17) and 2) proclaim the Lord Jesus as the all-sufficient Savior (Heb. 7:25; Acts 4:12).

Following are some other important biblical principles as you witness to Catholics:

Proclaim Jesus and His Word as the most trustworthy source for truth (John 14:6; 17:17; 18:37).

Discuss how sin has condemned every man under God's righteous judgment (Rom. 3:10-18; Heb. 9:27; Rev. 20:14).

Show that the Scriptures are sufficient for knowing and understanding how to be saved (2 Tim. 3:15).

Define the Gospel and its divine power to save (Romans 1:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 2:1-10).

Warn of the fatal consequences for anyone who teaches or believes a different gospel (Gal. 1:6- 9).

Show that no man or pope is infallible. Peter (who Catholics believe was their first pope) admitted he was wrong (Gal. 2:11-14).

Warn of the danger of following non-apostolic traditions (Mark 7:7-8, 13; Col. 2:8).

Explain the need to repent from what they have been doing to save themselves including the sacraments, the sacrifice of the mass, purgatory, indulgences, other mediators, good works and infant baptism. These nullify God's grace and deny the finished and all-sufficient work of Christ.

Stay focused on the Gospel, avoid going off on tangents that are unrelated to salvation (1 Cor. 2:2).

Sow the imperishable seed of God's Word with Gospel tracts (1 Pet 1:23).

Pray for their salvation (Rom. 10:1-4).

Remember that every sinner must repent and believe the Gospel to be saved (Mark 1:15). The only way to heaven is through Christ, and the only way to come to Christ is God's way - with repentance and empty hands of faith.

Gendron's false charges and misrepresentations have all been answered. So has his Calvinism.

 

[Illuminator]

Apologetics for the Masses #402 - Mike Gendron Response (Finale) | Bible Christian Society

 

[BreadOfLife]

Types and shadows are getting lost here....Rev 11:8, speaks of "the “great city” of Jerusalem, and so Revelation is referring basically to what ancient Jerusalem symbolized. First century Judaism was the type for what was to come in the "the time of the end" before the "coming" of God's Kingdom in the powerful hands of his appointed King. Judaism and Christendom are mirror images of one another.....lost in man-made traditions and paying no heed to scripture.....interpreting it to suit their adopted beliefs.....just as the Pharisees did. (Matt 15:-9) The devil has no new tricks because the old ones still work so well for him. He has no trouble recruiting hypocrites.

And when you speak of "the church" you naturally assume it is what became of Christianity after the first century....and that is where your argument comes undone. The church that developed after the death of the apostles was to become apostate, as Jesus said it would. He said that "while men were sleeping" the devil would sow his weeds in among the wheat so that the crop would be compromised by the multiplication of these men who were willingly doing the devil's work. Corruptible men did exactly what corruptible men had done with the Jewish faith. What did Jesus say about them?
Matt 23:5-10....
"All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards and lengthen the fringes of their garments. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ."

Does this sounds familiar? All the things they did to draw attention to themselves...the dress, the attitudes and the titles were all done before in Judaism...."call no man your Father on earth".....this is a Father that represents God to the people, not the one that gives birth to children.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. . . .

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves. . . . . “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."

God is lifting the lid on the evil deeds of those who pretend to be Christ's representatives on earth, no matter what "denomination" they claim as their own, but the "mother" church is the one who gave birth to all of them. The harlot has many daughters who all hold the same basic beliefs in common.

Those verses look more like TV Evangelists and other various Protestant charlatans who are making a fortune off of the Gospel. It doesn’t resemble the sanctity of Christ’s Catholic Church – which MOST people don’t know is the largest single charitable organization on the planet.

NO other entity in the world cares for more poor and destitute people than the Catholic Church.
Doing EXACTLY what Jesus expects of His people (Matt. 25:34-40).

What teaching from the Catechism has anything to do with the Bible? Again Catholicism, like the first century Jews for whom the Talmud became their "go to" for Bible interpretation, finds its counterpart in the Catholic Catechism. Both advocated the traditions of men, whilst rejecting scripture.

Jesus is most definitely the head of his church.....but he is not the head of a church that he says he has NEVER known. (Matt :21-23)

Why do you bother posting this excrement?

FIRST of all – you completely dodged my challenge in cowardly fashion by not addressing my question. I asked you to show me ONE teaching from the
Catechism that that Jesus is NOT the head of the Church and that we are supposed to worship someone else – and you failed.

Secondly, you falsely assert that the Catechism has “mothing” to do with the Bible.
EVERY teaching in the Catechism is backed up with Scripture passages to support it.

EPIC failure . . .

 

[Johann]

Anti-Catholic nonsense.

Gendron's false charges and misrepresentations have all been answered. So has his Calvinism.

I have no problem with him quoting scriptures-and nothing else-

1 John 5:11-13 KJV
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

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John 10:28-29 KJV
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

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Romans 11:29 KJV
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

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Romans 8:38-39 KJV
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Romans 8:1 KJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

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John 6:37-40 KJV
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

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Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

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Philippians 1:6 KJV
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

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Hebrews 10:14 KJV
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

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1 John 5:4 KJV
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

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1 Peter 1:4 KJV
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

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Hebrews 9:12 KJV
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

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John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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John 6:47 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

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2 Corinthians 1:22 KJV
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

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Ecclesiastes 3:14 KJV
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

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1 John 5:5 KJV
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

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Colossians 3:3 KJV
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

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John 3:36 KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

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John 3:18 KJV
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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Matthew 13:19-23 KJV
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

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1 John 3:9 KJV
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

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Colossians 1:13 KJV
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

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John 15:15-16 KJV
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

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Luke 15:7 KJV
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

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Matthew 17:20 KJV
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

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Galatians 2:20 KJV
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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Romans 6:22 KJV
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

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John 14:17-18 KJV
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

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John 6:47-50 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

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Ephesians 4:30 KJV
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

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Romans 6:9 KJV
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

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John 1:13 KJV
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

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Jude 1:25 KJV
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

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1 John 4:4 KJV
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

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2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

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[Illuminator]