tribulation and suffering part 1

[Behold]

5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God,

Being that the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom that all believers are born again into, its unlikely that they will have to prove they are worthy to be a part of it, when in fact they are already IN IT for Eternity, once they are born again.

Welcome to "Salvation".

 

[marks]

I build theology on *explicit statements.* Explicit Eschatology would be the same, explicit and direct statements made about the Eschaton that does not leave us much room for interpretation.

That's good! Me too!



That's where I go to the example of the 12 tribes sealed by God at that particular time. It's explicit prophetic narrative, and it's loaded with ecclesiological as well as eschatological significance. I challenge people to accept it to mean exactly what it seems to be saying.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And then they usually go on to claim that my view, Postrib, is just as ambiguous or vague. However, 2 Thes 2 isn't vague at all, but plainly declares that Christ cannot come for his Church unless Antichrist appears first. And then, it unambiguously proclaims that Christ will come not before but *at* the destruction of Antichrist. This is what I mean by explicit eschatology, or explicit theology.

Except that's not exactly what that passage says.

It says that the "day of Christ" or "day of the Lord" won't come except the apostasia come first, and the man of sin be revealed.

Paul writes that regarding the coming of the Lord, and our being gathered together to Him, don't let anyone alarm you, for whatever reason, as though the Day of the Lord has come. That day will not come but the apostasia . . .

That day that won't come is called the day of Christ, or the day of the Lord, depending on which manuscript. The passage is written regarding the church being troubled by people saying the day of the Lord had arrived.

So here's a question. If you were post trib, why would you be troubled by someone telling you it was the day of the Lord? You'd simply know that the clock was now ticking before Jesus returned and pulled you out before the final destruction, or however it is you see it.

But if you were expecting to be caught up before the day of the Lord, before the unrestraining of lawlessness, then for someone to tell you that it was the day of the Lord would be troubling indeed!

Paul assures them, concerning the coming of the Lord, and our being gathered together to Him, don't be troubled, whatever they say, as if the Day of the LORD had come, that day won't come . . .

That is, these are two ways you'd know it were the day of the Lord. The apostasia - now, that's an interesting word, by usage primarily meant rebellion, but literally means departure. What is Paul, argueably the greatest Greek writer since Aristophanes, what is Paul saying here? Was it even a reference to how Aristophanes used the word in The Birds, of flying off to the city in the sky?

And the revealing of the man of sin. These are two signs by which you can know that if you haven't seen those, it can't be the Day of the Lord.

So, that raises an interesting question about apostasia. If this is speaking of a rebellion, then, what rebellion? There has been rebellion and apostasy as we call it through the centuries. So when there is apostasy, rebellion, how would you know that This Is IT?

The revealing of the man of sin, that's just it, this is revelation. He will be revealed, and so those at the time will know.

But the apostasia . . . it seems to me that interpreting it in the more literal meaning of departure is a more singular event. Something those people at the time can point to and say, Yes, that's IT.

Much love!

 

[marks]

They often admit they have no explicit theology, and proclaim that their doctrine was designed to be based on a mysterious revelation, given only to those open to it. How dangeorus!

No need to assume this is me.

 

[marks]

No, symbols and visions are not explicit theology. They are to be *interpreted.* When the Bible speaks of 144,000 Israelites, it is expected that we draw logical conclusions to understand what the vision means. Daniel understood dreams that Nebuchadnezzar could not understand without him. We also need to be like Daniel, and understand how to interpret dreams.

If it doesn't mean what it says, I think it can be made to mean most anything at all. I've seen that a lot.

That was Daniel and the heathen king, and God had great designs for all of that. But as we are speaking of the revelation of Jesus Christ, this is something different I think. Certainly we need to approach the vision ready to understand anything at all from it, however, that doesn't mean that we no longer should seek specific interpretations and definitions from the text.

I love these simple phrases, "the servants of God" were sealed, and there were 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Either this is some kind of parable, and the 12 tribes is just for the story, and the 12,000 from each is just for the story, with no actual real meaning, or, at this moment in history, there are 144,000 servants of God, and they are all Jews.

If there is something in the Bible to point me to the fact that this should not be understood literally, I'm all for it. I love learning new things! And then it will also tell us how we should understand it, the significance of each thing, or just that this is a parable, or how we should understand it. It always does!

On the other hand, God promised Israel over and over that He would never forget them, that they would never stop being a nation before Him, that even the sun and moon could stop, but He wouldn't stop with Israel. That He was going to put His Word in their mouths, and their children's mouths, and their children, forever.

And here we are at the end of the age, the revelation of Jesus Christ, His soon return, and Israel stands there tribe by tribe. Even as Jesus told them that they would not be completely destroyed before He comes back to rescue them.

So that makes sense to me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Apostle Paul lays it out there. Christians will suffer, but he is pleased that the Thessalonian Christians are remaining strong in their love, and not denying their faith in Christ. This is an explicit warning, to embrace Christian suffering, and not to expect immediate deliverance from it.

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory (same word, rejoice) in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

I think we as Christians have lesser fear of suffering after having suffered. Because after some greater suffering we see the reality of this passage. We can endure knowing that just as God was there for us in His love for us when we suffered, so we can can know He will always be there for us.

There's a song from Urban Rescue I just love, Provider, "Until the oceans run dry my God is my Provider. And though my heart it may fail, Your love will light the way". Seeing His love in the deepest dark night liberates us from fear of suffering, and from the future, and shows us the love of God.

1 Peter 1
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Better translation, I think, "that the proving of your faith". Manifold temptations/testings/peirasmos prove your faith is genuine. God already knows your faith. You are tested to prove your faith to . . . you.

Leading you to walk more in your faith. To realize that it truly is by faith we live. And therefore to go and live by faith.

"but with every temptation/testing/peirasmos has provided a way out", that is, a particular "haven from the storm" as the word was used. A way out. With every temptation/testing God has a certain exit in mind already. A certain destination this particular test is supposed to carry us to.

Our job is to endure the suffering, or whatever contrary situation we find ourselves in, or whatever lust of the flesh, to endure without sin. And we do this by knowing that Jesus will give us everything we need. When I'm trusting that Jesus is in control, and that He loves me, and that He is caring for me, I rest in Him, while still living life, including dealing with whatever is the source of suffering. But without sin, which is "without taking matters into my own hands", I've got to do something! I can't stand this! If this doesn't stop . . . ! These are all doubt and fear, which is from the flesh.

We endure, and wait to see His deliverance. Some of His dearest gifts in this life come through much suffering. The dearest I think!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Thus all those in that Rev.7 chapter are about Christ's servants that are 'sealed' by God in prep for the great tribulation. The division between the seed of Israel and the Gentiles is to show the sealing of Christ's elect from both, as both together make up His Church.

So then, what is the significance of saying that 12,000 from each of 12 Israelite tribes where sealed?

 

[marks]

But once the Law was curtailed, the 12 Tribes were viewed as relevant only in terms of their original calling to form into one People.

And this is the significance, I believe, of the 144,000. They represent a remnant of Jewish People, originating from OT times, and coming to believe in Christ.

They are preserved in the Last Days until Israel is restored as a nation, both geographically and spiritually. The number may or may not be literal. The important thing is that these are literal Jews who represent the future hope of Israel. It is the fulfillment of their ancient promise to coalesce 12 tribes into a single nation.

This is confusing to me, because it sounds here that you are saying these will be literal Jews, and I'd wonder why not from each tribe? Maybe I'm not understanding something.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Humans going to live in heaven is never an option. Jesus said such a thing was impossible. John 3:13, John 8:21-23, +

But you know those verses don't say that. No one has ascended into heaven but the Son of Man, but this does not say no one will be taken up into heaven. Just sayin'.

 

[Davy]

So then, what is the significance of saying that 12,000 from each of 12 Israelite tribes where sealed?

Why does God show those separately from the Gentiles? It's because of His Promises to Israel, that should be easy.

Just because Christ's Church today is made up of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile does not dissolve God's Promises to chosen Israel. Nor does it mean believing Gentiles are isolated from those Promises either. This should easily be understood from Apostle Paul's teaching...

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

In Genesis 35, God told Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations". To Ephraim, Jacob said his seed would become "a multitude of nations" (Genesis 48). This historically happened when the Apostles took The Gospel to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe after the Jews in Jerusalem rejected it. The Western Christian nations was the result and fulfilled that prophecy.

Without God's Promises to Israel, there would be no Christian Church today. The false Jews teach against this, because they want us to think they only represent God's Israel. Not true, because ALL those in Christ Jesus represent God's Israel. Some of us have a literal heritage from the tribes of Israel, and some of us don't being Gentiles. But we both are in those above "covenants of promise" which God first gave to His Israel, The Gospel Promise even being first given through His servant Abraham. In Galatians 3 Paul even equates our Faith on Christ Jesus as being the same Faith as Abraham, and thus we in Christ are the "children of Abraham".

I know it sounds confusing when some hear me teach about the history of the ten lost tribes of Israel, and how God didn't lose them, and point to what God promised them will be fulfilled in final, and then to hear me teach that there's no difference between Israelite or Gentile in Christ's Church. But literally, ALL believers are in that "commonwealth of Israel" idea Apostle Paul taught, which means we INHERIT with Faithful Abraham, and thus with Faithful Israel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has always... been a possession of a remnant of the seed of Israel, as it was passed on from Abraham whom God first gave it.

All this will be fully revealed when our Lord Jesus returns.

 

[marks]

which mean we INHERIT with Faithful Abraham, and thus Faithful Israel.

I know we agree on a lot of things, this would be a point we differ on. I don't think being children of Abraham makes us children of Jacob.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I know we agree on a lot of things, this would be a point we differ on. I don't think being children of Abraham makes us children of Jacob.

Much love!

It doesn't genealogically, but it definitely does spiritually.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

We inherit with Faithful Abraham, regardless of being of the flesh seed of Israel or a Gentile. As believers on Christ Jesus we inherit together. That is what Apostle Paul showed, and it is what God also showed through His Old Testament prophets about Christ being a light to the Gentiles and inheriting with faithful Israel.

Now those men who teach against this, which thus are also against Apostle Paul on this, are the orthodox unbelieving Jews that have crept into the Church, and exist to distort God's Truth in His Word. This is why they no doubt are the ones behind the creation of the false pre-tribulational rapture of the Church to Heaven, while the nation of Israel is restored on earth again (an idea John Darby taught, but got from other sources).

It's the false Jews who want to keep a separation from Gentiles. Remember in Galatians when Paul rebuked Peter because he separated from his Gentile brethren when his Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit?

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is confusing to me, because it sounds here that you are saying these will be literal Jews, and I'd wonder why not from each tribe? Maybe I'm not understanding something.

Much love!

Yea, I suppose it can be confusing from what is usually said about this passage. Normally we are told that there are 12 distinct tribes, known by God, who will exist in the endtimes and become Christians.

However, this is impossible, since tribes are no longer distinguished as such. The Jewish People are mixed with a multiplicity of tribes and races. My point is only that these are indeed genuine Jews, descended from Abraham's original stock, from the original people who from the beginning had been distinguished as 12 tribes before they evolved into a single nation.

Even after Israel became a nation they still maintained a distinction of their tribes for a time. But after the destruction of the nation, and their exile, they would come back sort of jumbled together. Many in Israel were lost forever among the nations. And some returned under the banner of Judah, though they consisted of Hebrews from all 12 tribes.

Judah, at any rate, had long attracted Hebrews from all 12 tribes, being the center of Hebrew worship. And when the nation had divided, some chose to ally with Judah in the South.

The Jewish People today consist of a single nation, and not 12 tribes. But the important point is that these people include the DNA from *all* of the original tribes, in order to fulfill to those original 12 tribes an inheritance among their children.

The use of "12 tribes," therefore, is a statement of the fulfillment of a promise God made to the 12 tribes that they would equally share in the inheritance of a future Christian nation. The reason only 12,000 of each tribe exists in the 6th seal is because this was a necessary ingredient in the fulfillment of the scroll. And they represent only a remnant of the original tribes--many are lost, or remain in unbelief.

And the scroll has to do with the fulfillment of God's Kingdom on earth. That Kingdom must include the nation of Israel.

In the endtimes Israel numbers 144,000 to show that this is a militant remnant of Christians within Israel, and not all Israel, in the present age. In the endtimes this Christian remnant of Israel must be numbered to preserve Israel through the tribulations of the endtimes. As long as a Christian remnant of Israel remains, the promise of God remains true that God will restore the whole nation to spirituality one day.

 

[marks]

It doesn't genealogically, but it definitely does spiritually.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

We inherit with Faithful Abraham, regardless of being of the flesh seed of Israel or a Gentile. As believers on Christ Jesus we inherit together. That is what Apostle Paul showed, and it is what God also showed through His Old Testament prophets about Christ being a light to the Gentiles and inheriting with faithful Israel.

Now those men who teach against this, which thus are also against Apostle Paul on this, are the orthodox unbelieving Jews that have crept into the Church, and exist to distort God's Truth in His Word. This is why they no doubt are the ones behind the creation of the false pre-tribulational rapture of the Church to Heaven, while the nation of Israel is restored on earth again (an idea John Darby taught, but got from other sources).

It's the false Jews who want to keep a separation from Gentiles. Remember in Galatians when Paul rebuked Peter because he separated from his Gentile brethren when his Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit?

I'm not seeing where it says we are spiritual children to Jacob in the same way it Does say we are spiritual children to Abraham.

Much love!

 

[marks]

However, this is impossible, since tribes are no longer distinguished as such.

Why should we read something in the Bible and say, "that's impossible"?

The Jewish People today consist of a single nation, and not 12 tribes. But the important point is that these people include the DNA from *all* of the original tribes, in order to fulfill to those original 12 tribes an inheritance among their children.

I don't have any issue whatsoever with understanding that God is able to call out 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

While maybe I'm mistaken about this, but here's how it sounds to me.

It sounds to me that you are coming to this passage saying, That makes no sense! And therefore are now trying to find some other sense in which you can understand it.

I accept that there will be 144,000 Jews with 12,000 from each of twelve tribes, and I don't know any reason in the world why this could not be. And so I can accept it for exactly what it says, which actually then makes tons of sense to me.

And the scroll has to do with the fulfillment of God's Kingdom on earth. That Kingdom must include the nation of Israel.

My thought on this sealed copy of the scroll, now to be unsealed, this is the redemption scroll of Israel.

In the endtimes Israel numbers 144,000 to show that this is a militant remnant of Christians within Israel,

Where is this taught in the Bible? That makes no sense to me. Militant remnant?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why should we read something in the Bible and say, "that's impossible"?

With God all things are possible. But it's impossible for God to make a rock so big He can't lift it. What I'm referring to is not God's omnipotence, but rather, to logical impossibilities, or logical contradictions.

I don't have any issue whatsoever with understanding that God is able to call out 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

While maybe I'm mistaken about this, but here's how it sounds to me.

It sounds to me that you are coming to this passage saying, That makes no sense! And therefore are now trying to find some other sense in which you can understand it.

I accept that there will be 144,000 Jews with 12,000 from each of twelve tribes, and I don't know any reason in the world why this could not be. And so I can accept it for exactly what it says, which actually then makes tons of sense to me.

You know something is symbolic when it is obviously meant to be symbolic. How do you know that? It is when something would logically be impossible. For example, if I say I'm going to climb the nearest skyscraper and walk straight up the face of it, you know I'm not serious, am kidding, or using this as some kind of metaphor.

It's the same thing with the 12 tribes of Israel. Since their DNA has been mixed so thoroughly that you now have a solution and not constituent parts, you have to see the 12 tribes in terms of their origins, rather than as they presently are.

My thought on this sealed copy of the scroll, now to be unsealed, this is the redemption scroll of Israel.

I agree that it is a scroll including the redemption of the earth, but not just Israel.

Where is this taught in the Bible? That makes no sense to me. Militant remnant?
Much love!

This is a the size of an Army, Corps, or Division. This is an elite group--a remnant of overcomers. Hence, I refer to them as an Army.

 

[marks]

You know something is symbolic when it is obviously meant to be symbolic. How do you know that? It is when something would logically be impossible. For example, if I say I'm going to climb the nearest skyscraper and walk straight up the face of it, you know I'm not serious, am kidding, or using this as some kind of metaphor.

It's the same thing with the 12 tribes of Israel. Since their DNA has been mixed so thoroughly that you now have a solution and not constituent parts, you have to see the 12 tribes in terms of their origins, rather than as they presently are.

You are making an assumption that this is so, and this assumption negates the plain reading of Scripture.

Should we say the same thing of the 3 men Nebuchadnezzar had put into the furnace? Obviously they would have been burnt up in reality, therefore, that is symbolic of something?

For myself, I know that something is symbolic when the Bible tells me it is symbolic, for instance, "my words are spirit . . .", or, ". . .a great sign appeared in heaven", like that. And anytime we see something said to be a symbol, "a fiery red dragon", we are also told what the symbol represents, "that ancient serpent, called the Devil, and Satan".

What I'm referring to is not God's omnipotence, but rather, to logical impossibilities, or logical contradictions.

But that's only to you. These are not contradictions to me. Not at all. This seems rather subjective to me. "That seems to me to be impossible, therefore that passage can't mean that." And then your hermaneutic depends on the flexibility of your imagination?

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is a the size of an Army, Corps, or Division. This is an elite group--a remnant of overcomers. Hence, I refer to them as an Army.

So . . . where is this taught in the Bible? That these 144,000 are a military remnent?

Much love!

 

[Bobby Jo]

Obviously what the Bible actually says is unknown to you.
Revelation 21:2-3 plainly states that God will dwell with mankind in the new Jerusalem, which will come down from heaven. ...

... and when it passes by, -- those who are alive and remain on earth shall be caught up [raptured] to be with the LORD forever in the air --, in the New Jerusalem.

Rev. 21:10 And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed; 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked to me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its breadth; and he measured the city with his rod, twelve thousand stadia;c]'>[c] its length and breadth and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits by a man’s measure, that is, an angel’s. 18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every jewel; the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.

22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates shall never be shut by day—and there shall be no night there; 26 they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.​

Perhaps you missed that part of the Bible!
Bobby Jo

-- Some people's children. --

 

[Keraz]

Perhaps you missed that part of the Bible!

Revelation 21 is a prophecy about Eternity; AFTER the Millennium.
Why use it as a 'rapture' proof?

Some people's children.

Are incapable of understanding plain scripture and prefer their own fables.