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Featured tribulation and suffering part 1

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Randy Kluth, Jun 5, 2020.

  1. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Let's look at some of the details here:

    Ephesians 2
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    It used to be that Gentiles couldn't come to God because they weren't a part of Israel. The solution is not to make us part of Israel, as if there were the one man, 'Israel', and another man, 'Gentiles', and now in Christ 'Gentiles' becomes 'Israel'.

    Now, those two men, Israel and Gentiles, are made into one New Man, which is neither Jew Nor Gentile, as in Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile. We've been reconciled to God, both Jew and Gentile alike, through the cross, and not through the covenants of which we had no part as gentiles.

    So it's not about making us Israel, Jesus provided a new way to the Father, through Him, through the cross, by which Jew and Gentile both must be saved.

    He's abolished the enmity by doing something completely different, that we all directly benefit from.

    Much love!
     
  2. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is saying we miraculously change out ethnic identities. The color of a Christians skin does not change.
    The change is spiritual, but there is an underlying truth of how the ten Northern tribes were exiled and still remain scattered among the nations. After over 2700 years and about a 1000 generations, our Israelite identity is lost, as God wanted.

    But the simple way to identify any Israelite is by their Christian faith. Jesus WAS successful. Matthew 15:24
    You are to be congratulated for your efforts.
    However there is just the little fact that Jesus mentioned: I thank You, Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned... Matthew 11:25
    These things; mostly applies to the Prophetic Word, proved by the disparity of beliefs here and in all of the Church.
    The problem is that people make theories and suppositions and God locks them into them, as Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us.
     
  3. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Keraz, I didn't know you were so "wise and learned".

    Bobby Jo
     
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  4. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    You have to understand how everything in the Law was to be fulfilled! It was never intended to be fulfilled by Israel keeping the Law. The promise of Israel's eternal blessedness was always contingent upon Christ coming, who alone could provide what the Law could not do. Only he could save Israel from their sins by doing what they could not do, and then forgive them for all that they've done to God.

    Fulfillment of the Law was always meant to be practiced by Israel only up until Christ completed the process of redemption. Once redemption had been made eternal, keeping the Law was no longer necessary. They were mere shadows of the things only Christ could do in a permanent way.

    To say that all 600 or so elements of the Law had to be fulfilled before the universe expires is to say that Christ had to provide eternal salvation for Israel before the world could end. It wasn't that the Law had to be kept in perpetuity by Israel, but that the Law had to be fulfilled--something that only Christ could do in a permanent way. And once that happened, keeping the Law was no longer necessary.
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I haven't been discussing my opinion of others. If someone makes an unusual and vague statement, I'm going to call them out for it. That is not a slander, nor derision, nor expressing an opinion. It's about trying to grasp what the heck someone says actually means. Now if you don't like that style of communication, fine. We don't have to have a discussion.
     
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    As regarding Christ's Church as God's Israel, yes, definitely. The New Covenant Jesus Christ is about His Church, which was ordained from the foundation of the world (Eph.1).

    That quote in Matthew 2:15 from Hosea 11 is simply an analogy of how God called the children of Israel under Moses out of Egypt from under Pharaoh. In the Matthew 2 application, it was about Herod instead of Pharaoh. It does not equate Jesus with being Israel. The Hosea 11 example is only being used as an analogy for Christ being called out of Egypt like God did the children of Israel under Moses.
     
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    That's not accurate, because what you don't appear to understand is that the name 'Israel' wasn't originally about a 'seed' or a nationality idea. That thinking is where many brethren are stuck in understanding about the difference between God's Israel, and the nation of Israel. Paul explained this difference in Romans 9, and there is an Old Testament reason for it...

    Rom 9:6-8
    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    KJV

    Are you a child of the promise? You are IF you are Christ's.


    Paul is not applying a literal flesh seed inheritance there regarding the receiving of that promise. The 'promise' he is speaking of is the Gospel Promise first given through Abraham, which is by Faith, and was first before any giving of the law. The only involvement of flesh inheritance is that Gospel Promise by Faith was passed down from Abraham, then to his son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob whom God renamed Israel. Jacob prevailed with The Angel and demanded a blessing, and the blessing was the giving of the name Israel, for why? to represent God's Salvation by The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    That is why Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3 that those of Faith are the children of Abraham, and inherit with faithful Abraham. Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness. At the end of John 8, Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced. Paul said The Gospel was preached to Abraham when he was told he would become the father of many nations (Gal.3).

    The Promise did not end with Jacob (Israel) per God's Word. It continued to Joseph, and then Joseph's son Ephraim, where it still is today with the "multitude of nations" in Christ Jesus (Genesis 48; Genesis 35; 1 Chronicles 5).
     
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  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    See, this is why I never like to get into that stuff. I should have just left it alone. That's the problem when people make things about you, in this case, about knowing the meaning of a word, silly stuff like that.

    I understand what you are saying. I was responding to the matter of do we become spiritual children of Jacob, and that I believe Abraham is the tree, not Israel, that gentiles are grafted into.

    I think you understanding is that Israel was scattered among the nations, and now here we are, scattered, and finding Christ, just as promised. Is that correct?

    Much love!
     
  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Naturally!

    :)

    But when they come to faith in Christ on a national level, those blessings will be realized, and it will be the 1000 year kingdom.

    Not only the 613 commandments, but all the Law. Even Moses prophesied their salvation. It was prophesied throughout the OT that Israel would receive these things. Is so Israel shall.

    Isaiah 59
    20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
    21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

    Ezekiel 36
    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
    28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Much love!
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    He's speaking here of the nation of Israel.

    Not all Abraham's children, rather, the promised one.
    Not all Isaac's children, rather, the chosen one.
    Not all of Jacob's children, rather, the believing ones.

    But this chapter does not teach that Gentiles when they believe are Isreal. What it teaches is that Jews that don't are not. Very different.

    Much love!
     
  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    That's right, Abraham. And we know this because Paul taught it that way.

    18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father; for this is the first-born; put thy right hand upon his head.
    19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

    This is speaking of them, and Paul does not teach that passage the same way that he taught regarding Abraham. God's teaching in Scripture concerning Abraham is specific and clear, at least to me. In this is seems your idea is that since it was true in Abraham's case, it must then also be true in Ephraem's case?

    Also must be true in Jacob's case?

    11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; 12 and the land which I gave unto Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

    If this were so, if it meant the same as with Abraham, why then would not Paul include that in his writing? God in His teaching, that is?

    Why tell us we are spiritual children of Abraham, so we could have that understanding, but not tell us that we are spiritual children of Isaac and Jacob also? I mean, since He's teaching us on these things.

    Is every promise from God to a man that he will father many nations, is every time God says this a referrence to the church, or just where He says it is?

    Much love!
     
  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Paul is telling you that it's not the FLESH SEED that represents God's true Israel. It's those in the Promise. And that Promise is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Does that include part of the flesh seed of Israel? Yes, of course, the believers of the seed of Israel, but that ONLY because of their belief on Christ Jesus, and not just because they were born of a seed.

    Is there more proof of this? Most definitely! It's because all those who still refuse Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ will PERISH in the future lake of fire! How's that for an absolute against fleshy doctrines of Salvation?
     
  14. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but I would emphasize--Israel will not be saved by keeping the Law, nor be blessed by returning to the Law. This is a form of Dispensationalism, which I utterly reject. To return to the Law is a disgrace, and heretical, according to Paul. It would be treating Christ's sacrifice with contempt.
     
  15. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    So you deny the Birthright didn't go to Joseph and his two sons per 1 Chronicles 5:1? and that Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations"?

    When Paul taught that we inherit with father Abraham, even as our spiritual father in Christ Jesus, it's about the promises God first gave through... Abraham. Those promises did not just stop with him; they continued to his son Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, then to Ephraim. That Abraham would become the father of many nations is directly related to that "company of nations" and "multitude of nations" prophecy. So it's all actually tied together. It's just that the false Jews like to claim God's promises have nothing to do with the Gentile. Wrong, because what God first gave through Abraham included The Gospel, and that was handed down through to Ephraim, with it finally being fulfilled in the prophecy to Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations".

    I will tell you directly, no punches, and you can take it or leave it. The "multitude of nations" of Ephraim directly relates to The Gospel being preached to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe, thus creating the western Christian nations of history, and their allied Christian nations elsewhere in the world thereafter in The Gospel. It is NOT just about Israelites born of the flesh. It's about Christ's Church of BOTH believing Israelite and believing Gentile together. When the 12 tribes of Israel rebelled against God with idol worship, God kept His promise that He would scatter them among the Gentiles. And by that He worked a much greater work, taking His Salvation also to the Gentile peoples in the western nations, and from them then to the rest of the world.
     
  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Well of course! Nowhere do I ever say anyone will return to the OT Law to obtain salvation!

    Salvation is by faith in Jesus.

    But when Israel as a nation comes to faith in Jesus, they will in fact begin to keep the law, and will in fact obtain all the blessings of doing so. And they will be the head of nations, and a kingdom of priests, and all crops bountiful, and everything else.

    They will be returned to their land, each with their tribal allotment. The Apostles will each be judges over a tribe, and David will be their king, under King Jesus.

    Much love!
     
  17. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    o_O

    No . . . but how does that make the gentile church spiritual children of Jacob?

    What I'm seeing is how you tie them together, but I don't see the Bible do that. Only that God teaches us this truth about Abraham, and shows us how we have the same faith as Abraham, that we believe what God tells us, and God puts that to our account as righteousness. Of course in us God doesn't stop there, but begets us from above, as we become His children.

    I realize this is the viewpoint, at least, if I'm understanding you correctly. That we are Ephraim's children, scattered among the peoples, and so we come to faith at the preaching of the Gospel, being those children of promise, do I have that right?

    Maybe it would help me if you could write for me a simply outline of you view in this regard, If I've become confused!

    Much love!
     
  18. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Correct. That basically is the great Plan of God for His people. Davy puts it very well:
    But the fact is this amazing Plan is not meant to be understood by many, it is Gods secret, His mystery. Romans 16:25-26, Ephesians 3:3-6
    Only after the soon to happen Lords Day of wrath, will everyone understand:
    Isaiah 43:8 Bring forward My people, those who have eyes, but are blind. Have ears but, cannot hear.

    Ezekiel 12:2 These people cannot see or hear the Word, because they are rebellious.

    Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, to whom give warning? The people are incapable of listening, for they treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach.

    Daniel 12:4-9 Keep the Words secret until the time of the end, many will search hard to find this knowledge, but will not succeed.

    Isaiah 29:23-24 ...when My people see what I have done in their midst, then they will praise their Maker and regard the Lord with awe and the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction.

    Isaiah 42:18-19 You that are deaf hear now! You that are blind, look and see!

    Isaiah 32:3-4 Then My people will see and hear clearly, those who could not ‘see it’ or ‘hear the prophetic message’, will finally understand and know the truth. Isaiah 35:5
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  19. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    And only you have the wisdom to be able to understand the mystery and only as you have set it out.

    Paul was certainly not explaining the mystery of the end times but rather the mystery of God's Salvation plan for all of mankind.

    Your manner of interpreting the scriptures does not bestow confidence in me that you actually understand the mystery of Salvation, let alone the future plan of God to bring salvation about as God has set out and told us how, it will unfold.
     
  20. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    That is a total contradiction! If Salvation was not by the Law, then the Law is passe. It is done! No blessing can be obtained by a system that is not based on Christ, because Christ fulfilled the Law. To return to a time *before Christ* is an insult to Christ. To ignore Christ's atonement for sin to turn back to animal sacrifices that only partially dealt with sin is to ignore the importance of Christ's *eternal* atonement for sin!

    Yes, Israel has a future, called "the Jewish Hope," or "the Messianic Kingdom." Israel will be part of that, along with many nations. However, blessings come by pursuing righteousness in the name of Christ, and not in the name of Moses.

    Moses provided a temporary means of remaining in covenant with God. But the eternal covenant came by Christ, rendering the previous covenant null and void.

    Whatever value the laws had under Moses, those laws have now been subsumed under Christ, who is the sum total of all the Law meant to to express for Israel and for all. Following him and his word is sufficient for both salvation and blessing. Going back to the Law is, according to Paul, cursed.
     
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