tribulation and suffering part 1

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Keraz

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But you know those verses don't say that. No one has ascended into heaven but the Son of Man, but this does not say no one will be taken up into heaven. Just sayin'.
Nowhere does the Bible say anyone will go to live in heaven.
Even the 2 Witnesses do not live there, as they are taken up by Jesus at His Return, along with those who remain, as 1 Thess 4:17 says; to be with Him in Jerusalem.
Yea, I suppose it can be confusing from what is usually said about this passage. Normally we are told that there are 12 distinct tribes, known by God, who will exist in the endtimes and become Christians.
As we have no knowledge of who belongs to any of the 12 tribes of Israel, it will be the Lord who will assign people to the tribe,[division] they are suited to. He knows them all; Amos 9:9
They will all be people who are Christians now and who prove their faith during the soon to happen Sixth Seal event.
Soon after that worldwide disaster, we Christians will be motivated to migrate to all of the holy Land. John sees us there in his vision, Revelation 7:9-14, the ones who passed thru great tribulation, of the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.
Jesus will reveal Himself to them, 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:1, and will select the 144,000 from out of each of the 12 divisions of the Israelites of God.
 

Randy Kluth

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[QUOTE="Keraz, post: 770205, member: 7877"
As we have no knowledge of who belongs to any of the 12 tribes of Israel, it will be the Lord who will assign people to the tribe,[division] they are suited to. He knows them all; Amos 9:9
They will all be people who are Christians now and who prove their faith during the soon to happen Sixth Seal event.
Soon after that worldwide disaster, we Christians will be motivated to migrate to all of the holy Land. John sees us there in his vision, Revelation 7:9-14, the ones who passed thru great tribulation, of the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.
Jesus will reveal Himself to them, 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:1, and will select the 144,000 from out of each of the 12 divisions of the Israelites of God.[/QUOTE]

Just saying that the 12 tribes mentioned in Rev 7 cannot refer to 12 tribes that exist today or will ever exist again. They had relevance as tribes only while they were still under the Law. It was the Law that assigned them to their places until they eventually came to the promised place of national unity.

There is no longer any tribal distinctions, nor any national distinctions, with respect to our standing before God. So even though there remain ethnic differences in the world and in the Church, these distinctions are not relevant to the purposes of salvation, and thus not critical to the cause of maintaining tribal distinctions in Israel. And it hasn't been important for thousands of years.

To just randomly assign Jews of mixed tribal and national DNA to a single tribe is, on its face, absurd. They belonged to tribes due to their DNA, and not due to random assignment!

And so, the 12 tribes are mentioned in Rev 7 to point out that God is fulfilling His promises to the ancient tribes by restoring a people descended from all of them. And they all have equal inheritance in Christ, no matter what tribes they originated from.

That's why there are 12,000 each per tribe, to show that each tribe had an equal right to this inheritance. It is pure symbolism, in my view.

As far as going to the Promised Land, I don't think so. It's a pretty big earth, and Jews would do well to go to their place in Israel, while I go to my place here in the Western world. :)
 

Keraz

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Just saying that the 12 tribes mentioned in Rev 7 cannot refer to 12 tribes that exist today or will ever exist again. They had relevance as tribes only while they were still under the Law. It was the Law that assigned them to their places until they eventually came to the promised place of national unity.

There is no longer any tribal distinctions, nor any national distinctions, with respect to our standing before God. So even though there remain ethnic differences in the world and in the Church, these distinctions are not relevant to the purposes of salvation, and thus not critical to the cause of maintaining tribal distinctions in Israel. And it hasn't been important for thousands of years.
How can you say that God won't make distinctions among His people in the future? At the very least He will choose His priests and co-rulers from among them. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10

You study the Prophesies; why do you ignore the many scriptures that say how the people who will live in the holy Land after the Lord has cleared and cleansed all of that area, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, will be divided into 12 groups, named after the 12 sons of Jacob? They parade before Him; Psalms 68:24=27
Ezekiel 48:1-35 carefully defines their respective areas.
Also read and understand Ezekiel 47:21-23, where it says the aliens among the people will receive their share.
 
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Randy Kluth

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How can you say that God won't make distinctions among His people in the future? At the very least He will choose His priests and co-rulers from among them. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10

You study the Prophesies; why do you ignore the many scriptures that say how the people who will live in the holy Land after the Lord has cleared and cleansed all of that area, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, will be divided into 12 groups, named after the 12 sons of Jacob? They parade before Him; Psalms 68:24=27
Ezekiel 48:1-35 carefully defines their respective areas.
Also read and understand Ezekiel 47:21-23, where it says the aliens among the people will receive their share.

1st, I think these are very difficult prophecies to interpret. The language of prophecy, from OT to NT, is by default difficult because the language of the covenants have to somehow be incorporated as it changes from one covenant to another.

I'm certainly not saying that there won't be eternal distinctions among men and groups. We are united only in terms of our spiritual unity in Christ, and not in terms of God's creative differences that He produced in us as a society.

Everything under the Law, however, has to go through this change, which under the Law could not be fully disclosed. The Scriptures say so. It was hidden as a "mystery," according to Paul. And while the Law was in effect it was important that the Jews not think beyond the requirement to obey every law.

So when Ezekiel describes, at the time of the Captivity, the future construction of the temple, he speaks in terms of the then-applicable Law of Moses, and only projects into an unknown future with a new future covenant.

The expression of equality among tribes in this future inheritance is therefore not literal in fixing boundaries between tribes. It is only literal in the sense that there will be an equal share among all tribes. Every true Jew will have an equal share in the land inheritance. The vision utilizes symbolism to express real truths.

The same thing takes place in the book of Revelation. The 144,000 indicate, like Ezekiel, there will be an equal inheritance among all Jews, who do represent all 12 tribes of the past. This also is a vision, and uses symbolic language. But the present reality is no longer that the tribal distinctions exist--only that all 12 tribes are somehow represented in the Jewish People today, who represent a fulfillment of God's promises to all 12 tribes.

Brother, I do see that the New Jerusalem is largely descending from heaven in the size of the entire Middle East. And since the name is "Jerusalem," it may indeed be located in the Middle East. We may all live there, or not.

This may just be the center of the Kingdom of God on earth. Actually, it seems futile for me to understand this--it's just talking about a city the size of the entire Middle East and reaching up past satellites and into space! How can I hope to understand this as our being taken to the Middle East?

I believe the language of prophecy focused, under the OT, upon Israel and upon their restoration after a very long period of seeming abandonment. Jesus spoke of a restoration, and the book of Acts speaks of a restitution of the Jewish People.

Therefore, when Christ returns he will, I believe, restore the Jews who are left in the Diaspora, and will establish a new spiritual Israel, who follow Christ and his Law. I don't believe this has anything to do with non-Jewish believers.

Jewish believers in the present age will be given rule over the restored Christian nation of Israel, to prevent any more satanic rule over that territory. And the same will be true of Christians in other nations--they will be given to rule, spiritually, over their own territories. How this is divided up I don't claim to know?

I believe the Revelation focuses primarily on Israel and on Jerusalem because Israel had been designed, from ancient times, to be a model for the whole world, for all nations. Now, in NT times, and well past the time of John, Christian nations have emerged, just like Israel, filling the whole world with Christian civilization.

The thought has never been to revert back to exclusively Israel and exclusively Palestine. Rather, the thought has been to fulfill what only began with Israel, completing it in an inheritance that includes both Israel and many nations who like Israel embrace Christ.

Our future rule in the Millennium may begin as a heavenly rule that is established on earth, though those of us who have been glorified may remain in heaven, just as Jesus is presently in heaven. We don't even know what "in heaven" literally means, let alone understand it! I believe it is less "up there" in the sky, and more, entering into a different dimensional existence in an area defined by God.

As Christ presently rules over the earth from heaven, so we will, I think, rule from heaven over the Millennial earth. But it is our destiny to eventually physically live on the New Earth. We can only speculate what this might be like?

At the end of the Millennium I think the Kingdom of God will be established on earth forever, forever excluding Satan and men who refuse to follow Christ. These things are not essential to our Salvation, but they are interesting to ponder. We may disagree, but who can prove things one way or another? But thanks for your thoughts, as always.
 
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Davy

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I'm not seeing where it says we are spiritual children to Jacob in the same way it Does say we are spiritual children to Abraham.

Much love!

Then compare Romans 9:23-26 with Hosea 2, especially the last Hosea 2 verse where Apostle Paul quoted that from in Romans 9. The Hosea Scripture was God speaking through His prophet Hosea to the ten northern tribes who had rebelled against Him. It wasn't written to Gentiles. However, Paul applied it to Gentiles, because of prophecies like this:

Isa 43:6-7
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him for My glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

KJV

What name would that be? Christian.
 
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Keraz

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The same thing takes place in the book of Revelation. The 144,000 indicate, like Ezekiel, there will be an equal inheritance among all Jews, who do represent all 12 tribes of the past.
This is your mistake. The Jews do not and never have represented all 12 tribes.
Did Judah receive all the Blessings promised by Jacob and Moses? No.
Are the Jews as many as the sands of the sea? No.

But as you know, all of Israel will be gathered in the latter days, all of the Israel of God, that is. His faithful Christian people, the ones Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24 There will be some Jews, but the majority will be from the ten 'lost' tribes, at present still scattered among the nations.
It really isn't so hard to figure this mystery out. Only for those who don't want to know, as the truth would spoil their fanciful beliefs.
 

Bobby Jo

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... the truth would spoil their fanciful beliefs.

Careful Keraz. Many of the doctrines espoused are based upon supposition, rather than the absolute FACTS of Scripture and History. And you've glommed many yourself, all the while disregarding said absolute FACTS.

So although many present their premise and supposition as FACT, I prefer FACT as FACT.

Bobby Jo
 

Randy Kluth

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This is your mistake. The Jews do not and never have represented all 12 tribes.
Did Judah receive all the Blessings promised by Jacob and Moses? No.
Are the Jews as many as the sands of the sea? No.

But as you know, all of Israel will be gathered in the latter days, all of the Israel of God, that is. His faithful Christian people, the ones Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24 There will be some Jews, but the majority will be from the ten 'lost' tribes, at present still scattered among the nations.
It really isn't so hard to figure this mystery out. Only for those who don't want to know, as the truth would spoil their fanciful beliefs.

Yes, Israel has already surpassed the "sand on the seashore" stage.

2 Sam 17.11 “So I advise you: Let all Israel, from Dan to Beersheba—as numerous as the sand on the seashore—be gathered to you, with you yourself leading them into battle."

So you're a bit "late to the party." Israel achieved that threshold back in around 1000 BC! ;)

As to your claim that the 10 lost tribes are still viable, and represent non-Jewish Christians, that is Replacement Theology of some kind, and is patently absurd. Israel is not a name that can be stolen from the Jewish People and applied randomly to anybody who is thought to have replaced the Jewish Religion.

Israel is and always will represent people biologically descended from Abraham and those who have attached themselves to this group of people. They, the Jewish People, do, therefore, represent an amalgamation of all 12 tribes, now having coalesced into those associated with a return from Babylon.

Although the tribe of Judah was predominantly associated with those returning from Babylon, it had long become an association of those from all 12 tribes who wanted to gather under the more orthodox brand of those following the Law in the Southern State. Those in the Northern State had long become associated with opposition to serving the Law in Jerusalem, and thus encouraged a migration of many from all northern tribes into the territory of Judah.
 

Keraz

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Yes, Israel has already surpassed the "sand on the seashore" stage.
But today the descendants of Jacob numbers billions. The Jews are at the most 20 million worldwide.
As to your claim that the 10 lost tribes are still viable, and represent non-Jewish Christians, that is Replacement Theology of some kind, and is patently absurd. Israel is not a name that can be stolen from the Jewish People and applied randomly to anybody who is thought to have replaced the Jewish Religion.
It is not 'replacement' to say the Christian people are Israelites. At the very least, we are grafted into the 'tree' that is true Israel.
But in fact we are, mainly; actual descendants from the ten Northern tribes. We Caucasian peoples came from the region that ancient Israel was exiled to.
Can you not see how Gods amazing Plan has unfolded? We have lost the knowledge of our ancestry, but when Jesus came to save us, we accepted the Gospel. The time is at hand when we will realize our destiny, of being the people who will be the Lords witnesses and His Light to the nations, as we fulfil Gods promise to Abraham of his descendants living in all of the holy Land.
Israel is not a name that can be stolen from the Jewish People
It is the Jews who have usurped the name of Israel. They have no right to it since the split in Rehoboam's time.
They are Judahites and we are told they belong to the synagogue of Satan. Even their flag is a Satanic symbol.

Your belief of a general Jewish redemption, is neve stated in the Bible. What is prophesied is their virtual demise.
 
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marks

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Then compare Romans 9:23-26 with Hosea 2, especially the last Hosea 2 verse where Apostle Paul quoted that from in Romans 9. The Hosea Scripture was God speaking through His prophet Hosea to the ten northern tribes who had rebelled against Him. It wasn't written to Gentiles. However, Paul applied it to Gentiles, because of prophecies like this:

Isa 43:6-7
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him for My glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

KJV

What name would that be? Christian.

Can you be more explicit? I still don't see where "Christian" becomes "spiritual child of Jacob". Yes, various passages can have application to different peoples . . .

OK, let's use another example. Matthew quotes of Jesus, "out of Egypt I called my son". This was in Hosea also I think, and was spoken of Israel. But does that mean that Jesus is Israel and Israel is Jesus? I don't think that's what we're being taught there. Rather that there is a parallel between Israel and Jesus.

Romans 4
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Abraham, being the father of us all, is the father of 'many nations'. Not that we all become Israel, but we all in our various nationalites become childen of Abraham.

Much love!
 

marks

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Just saying that the 12 tribes mentioned in Rev 7 cannot refer to 12 tribes that exist today or will ever exist again. They had relevance as tribes only while they were still under the Law. It was the Law that assigned them to their places until they eventually came to the promised place of national unity.
Jesus said that nothing would pass from the Law until all be fulfilled, and not all has been fulfilled. It will be though. Israel will receive all the blessings of the Mosaic Covenant after coming into Christ.

Much love!
 

Davy

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Can you be more explicit? I still don't see where "Christian" becomes "spiritual child of Jacob". Yes, various passages can have application to different peoples . . .

OK, let's use another example. Matthew quotes of Jesus, "out of Egypt I called my son". This was in Hosea also I think, and was spoken of Israel. But does that mean that Jesus is Israel and Israel is Jesus? I don't think that's what we're being taught there. Rather that there is a parallel between Israel and Jesus.

Huh?? That idea doesn't make sense, whether or not Jesus is Israel. Brother, you actually show that you don't really know what the meaning of the name 'Israel' is about. That's the new name God gave to Jacob, remember? It literally means those who overcome with God's help. That name represents the Salvation name through Christ Jesus. It does not represent The Christ, it only represents His Salvation via The Gospel.

But don't stop there, because the Biblical idea God has for that name Israel isn't just about seed. It's about God's Birthright. Did you not know that God has a Birthright given to His chosen? Each eldest son inherits a birthright from their flesh father, yet God also has a Birthright for His chosen to inherit. His Birthright actually began with His promises to Abraham, which included The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So is The Gospel for the seed of Israel only??? Of course not.

The inheritors of The Gospel are those who receive God's Promises, which is why Apostle Paul showed in GALATIANS 3 that those of Faith inherit with Abraham.

Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

KJV

Spiritual seed, yet counted as Abraham's seed according to the promise, never the less.
 
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marks

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Brother, you actually show that you don't really know what the meaning of the name 'Israel' is about. That's the new name God gave to Jacob, remember?
From 'heel catcher' or 'supplanter' to 'ruled by God' or 'victorious in God', if memory serves correctly.

Your derision isn't needed or useful I don't think.

What I'm saying is that your hermanuetic doesn't work when you apply it to similar passages.

So is The Gospel for the seed of Israel only??? Of course not.

We're not brought into Israel for our salvation, the Gospel is gone into all the world, to the gentiles. Now we who were afar off are brought near, not to join in the covenants with Israel, but to be brought directly into Christ, in Whom are neither Jew Nor Gentile.

Christ is the firstfruits, bearing His seed in Him.

Spiritual seed, yet counted as Abraham's seed according to the promise, never the less.

Abraham's seed. But not Jacob's.

Much love!
 

marks

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Brother, you actually show that you don't really know
Just as an aside, and a little metacommunicating . . . you don't actually know how may decades I've studied these things. How much education I've received on the Biblical texts. How much I read and meditate and pray and ponder. What my standards of evidence are, and how deeply I dig. How well I can understand the original languages. You really don't actually know.

I never like to give my resume, I feel like it takes away from the discussion. I find people seem ready to assume I don't have one. But to make it about my own credential is craziness.

Much love!
 
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Davy

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From 'heel catcher' or 'supplanter' to 'ruled by God' or 'victorious in God', if memory serves correctly.

Your derision isn't needed or useful I don't think.

Not derision, I'm simply surprised by that question of whether Jesus is Israel or visa versa. Where did you come up with that idea?

What I'm saying is that your hermanuetic doesn't work when you apply it to similar passages.

That definitely is a vague statement, it doesn't make sense either.

We're not brought into Israel for our salvation, the Gospel is gone into all the world, to the gentiles. Now we who were afar off are brought near, not to join in the covenants with Israel, but to be brought directly into Christ, in Whom are neither Jew Nor Gentile.

What you said there would change and deny what Apostle Paul clearly said in Ephesians 2 to Gentiles having come into the covenants and promises to Israel, being made part of the "commonwealth of Israel". I assume you know what a commonwealth is.

Sorry, but the Christian Church, which includes believers from ALL nations, is God's Israel today, and of the future. Only those of Faith in The Gospel are 'counted' for the seed of Israel (Romans 9). You can keep thinking that only one literally born of the seed of Israel represents God's Israel, which is what your words show, but that's not what Apostle Paul taught at all.
 

Davy

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Just as an aside, and a little metacommunicating . . . you don't actually know how may decades I've studied these things. How much education I've received on the Biblical texts. How much I read and meditate and pray and ponder. What my standards of evidence are, and how deeply I dig. How well I can understand the original languages. You really don't actually know.

I never like to give my resume, I feel like it takes away from the discussion. I find people seem ready to assume I don't have one. But to make it about my own credential is craziness.

Much love!

None of that means anything without God firstly giving one understanding by The Holy Spirit. I don't care if you've got the highest I.Q. in the world, seen more historical events with your own eyes than anyone else, and are the highest level Biblical scholar in the world. If your spirit is not aligned with God in His Word, by HIS touching, then you can still be spiritually blind as a bat, just as Apostle Paul even was before Christ converted him. So don't be asking about my qualifications, which probably is why you threw all yours out like that, because you want to dig into my history. Sorry, if you can't fathom how I stick to God's Word as written, then you won't trust my credentials either.
 

marks

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None of that means anything without God firstly giving one understanding by The Holy Spirit.
That's true!

then you can still be spiritually blind as a bat,
So then is this how you think of me?

My point is . . . let's keep to the Bible, and not discuss our "low opinions of others".

Much love!
 
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marks

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Not derision, I'm simply surprised by that question of whether Jesus is Israel or visa versa. Where did you come up with that idea?

Hosea 2
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will answer, saith Jehovah, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth;
22 and the earth shall answer the grain, and the new wine, and the oil; and they shall answer Jezreel.
23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them that were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Then compare Romans 9:23-26 with Hosea 2, especially the last Hosea 2 verse where Apostle Paul quoted that from in Romans 9. The Hosea Scripture was God speaking through His prophet Hosea to the ten northern tribes who had rebelled against Him. It wasn't written to Gentiles. However, Paul applied it to Gentiles, because of prophecies like this:

Isa 43:6-7
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him for My glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
KJV

What name would that be? Christian.

You've made the case that since Hosea prophesied this phrase concerning Israel, and since Paul quoted it applied to the Gentile believers, that this means the gentile believers and Israel are one and the same. Is that correct?

So what I'm saying is that Hosea also prophesied saying of Israel, "out of Egypt I called my son." Matthew quotes this prophecy and applies it to Jesus.

Same thing happening, just different details.

But this does not mean that Jesus and Israel are one and same.

Do you see the pattern?

Much love!