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Featured tribulation and suffering part 1

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Randy Kluth, Jun 5, 2020.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I've shown you enough Bible scripture to back up what I'm saying. It's up to you to believe what's written or not. And really all I have to do is repeat the "company of nations" and "multitude of nations" prophecy about Jacob and Ephraim. Now that is not me tying this together, it is God's Word, because the nation of Israel has ONLY ever been but 'one' nation, not a multitude of nations. So explain that.
     
  2. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    There are African Jews and Chinese Jews. Some claimed before the great wars, that Poland was Jewish. There are American Jews. Many Jews in Germany and throughout Europe. There were even Jews throughout Russia. It was not that they became those nations. It was because God blessed all those nations, they became a part of.
     
  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    No, those Jews did not... become nations. As a matter of fact, they were cast out of Europe and many other nations, roaming the earth like vagabonds (which God said He would cause upon them). So that in no way explains the "company of nations" and "multitude of nations" that the seed of Jacob and Ephraim was to become. Keep trying.
     
  4. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, there is no more time. You should have been born 200 years ago, if you want more time. There is no interpretation that will give history more time. Well, except for those pesky 3.5 years of Satan. Your "Nations" are in the past, cause time is no more. That 3.5 year period of Satan has been figured in, and can only be erased. The fig tree prophecy was already in place in 1948. That was 72 years ago. There were only 40 years between Jesus death, and the destruction of Jerusalem. We have already had 32 more years than the Jews of Jesus' first visit. How long do you think this is all going to drag out, if the fig tree, already happened?
     
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I'd say rather that the blessings will come by the national repentance that comes through the great tribulation and in the preparation by Elijah the prophet, and then, in Peter's words, as he preached to the Jews,

    Acts 2
    19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    The covenant made with Israel at Mount Horeb will be fulfilled in its entirety as Israel repents and believes and receives Jesus, Who will return and rescue them. And as they come to faith in Christ, God does what He promised them. He will put His Spirit into them which will cause them to keep all His statutes and commandments, everything.

    And in so doing they will be as blessed as the Law and the Prophets all declared.

    And of course that's not what I'm talking about.

    What would you consider the intent of the covenant made at Sinai between God and Israel to be? This was not merely a means to cover sin, that actually came later. Primarily it was to set apart Israel as a nation by how blessed they were by God as they were faithful to God's commandments.

    Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial expiation of sin, the Lamb of God Who carries away the sin of the world. And Jesus will likewise fulfill the kingdom of priests that was the very first part of that covenant. This still stands, and will be done. Every cooking pot in Jerusalem Holy To The LORD, that is, used for sacrificial cooking. All those in Jerusalem, priests serving in the sacrifices to Jesus.

    Much love!
     
  6. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    It shows ancestry according to the flesh. Scripture specifically teaches that we are spiritual children to Abraham, you can look that up, and read it.

    God made promises that these would father many nations. And God said of one of those, this is in our faith, that we are the children of faithful Abraham.

    The Bible never makes the same statement regarding Isaac or Jacob, but is as silent on the topic as it is clear concerning Abraham.

    Remember, that you can have a nation continuing on through history, and those who leave those people early on, and begin their own nations, and you may have any number of people groups that have thier origin in Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ephraim, whomever.

    To me it seems a needless assumption that God was speaking of more than the same promise of descendants.

    The key point about this was something that is pinpointed in Abraham, that he believed God, and that was accounted to him as righteousness. We join him in that. We are the wild branch while Israel is the domestic branch, but the tree we are grafted into is Abraham.

    Much love!
     
  7. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Lovely!
    Question my Salvation, instead of actually proving your beliefs with scripture. Shoot the messenger!

    I have never claimed to know it all. My task is to point out what the Prophets wrote.

    Yes; Romans 16:25-26 is about Salvation thru Jesus. My point there is; Who was it that Jesus came to save? The lost sheep of Israel - Matthew 15:24 and He was successful, we Christians are the result. This means that we ARE actual descendants of Abraham/ Isaac/ Jacob/ his ten sons, the tribes sent into exile by Assyria who still remain scattered among the nations.
     
  8. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Do you even know what the NT equivalent of "statutes and commandments" is? Hint: it is *not* the Law of Moses, nor 613 requirements.

    Not quite. The covenant at Sinai was designed to cover sin immediately, and not later, at the cross. The covenant of Law was designed to bring about a temporary covering for sin, to keep Israel in relationship with God. But the cross was designed to render permanent this covering of Israel's sin, so that their relationship with God would be eternal.

    The "priesthood" God made Israel to be was the Aaronic and Levitical priesthood, which in the NT period is universal among God's people. We are all of us priests through Christ. We all minister through Christ, our high priest.

    Israel has no special role outside of being one of many nations in the international Church. Their nation just has not yet obtained the status of "Christian nation."

    The Zechariah reference to "holy pots" is an indication of the ubiquitous nature of holiness under the new covenant. Whereas once holiness was limited to certain temple uses and dedications, in the future Zechariah saw holiness expand beyond these ceremonies of cleansing to become the "norm." This is NT Christianity, where the Law no longer applies.
     
  9. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    And you continue to prove my point as to why I have no confidence in your ability to interpret the scriptures, except in line with your warped understanding of what it is that God's Prophetic words tell us. When I have pointed out previously that God is going to gather Israel to Himself and plant them into fertile soil and teach them about the "Religion" of Israel, i.e. Christ, where they are living and will remain living scattered throughout the whole earth until the end of time, in line with the metaphorical language of the scriptures where the prophecy is found, you have disagree with me even after stating that you have no understanding of the context and message of the original text language. Your understanding is based on the English Translations and even then you have no ability to confirm the truthfulness of the translations that you consult for your confirmation that they might be right based on your understanding that if enough of them sound the same then their message content must be right. The fallacy on which you believe the translations must be therefor right.

    Now concerning your claim that I had questioned your salvation, another false claim on your part when in reality I did not question your salvation, what I question was your ability of interpreting the scriptures correctly. A very different thing, do you not agree?
     
  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    That does not explain the "company of nations" nor "multitude of nations" that Jacob and Ephraim's seed was to become. You're not even in the ballpark.
     
  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    In a certain case for Israel, yes. For Gentiles no.

    Yes, including believers of the seed of Israel too. I've been quoting that idea from Gal.3 from Apostle Paul. Haven't you been reading my posts?

    Those in Christ Jesus are ALL... spiritual children of Abraham. You know why? Because God's Salvation Promise by 'Faith' (The Gospel) was first offered through Abraham, and it continued among the believing seed of Israel and then was taken to the Gentiles. It never was a Salvation by 'seed' doctrine. Even those born of Israel MUST believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ to be saved.

    Not exactly, because if that were true, then God's Salvation would be about Salvation by birth, and not by Faith on The Promise (Gospel). It's The Gospel which Abraham believed by Faith, which is 'how' we have become the children of Abraham.

    Paul is more direct here as to what our Faith is in relation to Abraham's Faith...

    Gal 3:14
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    KJV


    Paul explains the blessing there, what it is. It's the receiving of The Spirit through Faith on Jesus Christ. That's The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Jesus said at the end of John 8 that Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced. So Abraham knew more of The Gospel than just God saying he would be the flesh father of many nations. The application was especially meant within The Gospel of Jesus Christ by Faith. So who all does that include? And so it has been like God said.

    That's an area you might want to study more, because The Old Testament Books does say more than you think about Isaac and Jacob's place in The Gospel, especially with Jacob. By that study you will discover many of the same blessings first given to Abraham passed down to his son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob. It's about God's Birthright, the Birthright that the Islamic clerics are still jealous of the Jews over today, because they claim Ishmael was the true firstborn of Abraham (he was, but not of Abraham and Sarah which God had before promised an heir, which would be Isaac). And what's funny, is that the majority of Jews today still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and thus The Gospel Promise by Faith first given through Abraham.

    You're veering off track. God's Word is specific on this matter. You simply haven't studied it or haven't understood it yet.

    You apparently don't realize that above statement is arguing with God on the matter, not with me. If you don't understand this matter, put it on a shelf and pray about it. But don't mock it, because the "company of nations" and "multitude of nations" prophecies are indeed about the literal seed of Israel, just not in the holy lands. Ask Keraz, as he understands where I'm coming from about this.
     
  12. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Should not the tree be Christ? The majority of the tree being of Abraham. But all are in Christ, not Abraham.
     
  13. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately for you, the ballpark has been closed. Both literally and figuratively.
     
  14. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    I'm post-trib/pre-mil It is probably going to start soon. So if you are pre-trib. you may only have two years left here. And if you're right, I'm going with you! But I don't think you are right. Rev. 12 talks of other offspring when Israel is being protected. That would be Christians.
     
  15. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    No one can be pre-trib any more. Unless the seals are not counted as tribulation. If 2 billion people die in seal 4, and the rapture happens in seal 6, it would be after the tribulation of those days in seal 4. The church cannot stay, sorry. People walking around as sons of God, would not be appropriate as ones doing the harvest. The harvest is done by angels, not sons of God. Revelation 7 says we are constantly in the temple, around the throne of God. The temple as being separated from the earth. Not until the Second Coming week of 8 days, will the church join in the celebrations. We are not told how this temple, paradise, Garden of Eden, works. We just know that it does exist.

    This world will soon forget God on the throne, just like those Hebrews just out of Egypt, wanted Egyptian gods made right in front of Mt. Sinai, where God’s presence was in their direct line of sight.
     
  16. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    You're coping out.
     
  17. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying the Great Tribulation has already started, or is past??? When? The seals start with the revealing of the Antichrist. That hasn't happened yet. Christians would know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
  18. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Already started.

    May, 2018. Did you miss it?

    Ummmmmmm, NO. -- That may be your EXPECTATION, but it ain't Scripture.

    Well, I guess that answers a LOT for your "Christianity", but the rest of us either should know or do know.


    Bobby Jo
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
  19. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    What was the purpose of the giving of the old covenant? Is that what you're asking? Paul in Galatians 3 said it was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come unto whom the promise was made (Gal.3:19). Basically, the old covenant upon Mt. Sinai was given to POINT to the need of Salvation by Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ. The old covenant was a way to show man the knowledge of sin and the need for The Saviour.

    So obviously per Scripture, it was NOT just to single out the nation of Israel. Instead, it was to point to The Saviour through The Gospel of Jesus Christ, for ALL peoples.

    This is one of the great misunderstandings by many of the seed of Israel. They seem to think God chose them because of some special thing they did, or were worthy of. That is simply not true, for of all peoples on earth, their history shows they have been one of the most sinful peoples of the world.

    God chose the children of Israel to take His Gospel Promise to the nations! That is what He chose them for, actually as servant-ambassadors in The Gospel to the nations! This is why The Gospel had to be preached at Jerusalem first. And then when the majority of the Jews at Judea refused it, The Gospel was taken by believing Israelites to the Gentiles (and to scattered Israelites among those Gentiles).

    So there is NO GLORYING for those of the seed of Israel simply by just being born of the seed. But there is MUCH glorying in Christ for those of the seed of Israel who fulfill their chosen duty to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ to Israel and to the nations.
     
  20. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Very good.
    Only in the last line 'to Israel', should be: 'to the Jews'.
    One of the worst errors of Christian today, is to virtually worship the Jewish Nation they call; Israel.

    This shows just haw confused and deceived many are. Also how little they read and understand the Prophesies about the fate of the House of Judah.
     
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