Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[ewq1938]

Gods' wrath begins at the 1st trumpet and ends at the 7th trumpet

Not according to scripture. Revelation 11 says his wrath starts when the 7th trump sounds.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here it clearly states that God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.

 

[Timtofly]

Why does everyone find a need to make something up. I don't get it. If you would just read what it says and accept it, that's the end of the story. The 5th seal is the great tribulation, just like it says. Who are these in white robes, that come out of Great Tribulation?

It says they come out of great tribulation, not The Great Tribulation. That is Matthew 24:9-14

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

James and Stephen were the first to come out of great tribulation meaning unto martyrdom. Those who remain faithful till their death. That end, not those who can last 100 years, or 3.5 years, or even 1 year. Faithful until the moment they die.

Yes the 144k are on earth during the Trumpets.

"and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea," the Trumpets

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The 144k were not hurt even though they were on the earth. Being sealed made them impervious.

 

[The Light]

Not according to scripture. Revelation 11 says his wrath starts when the 7th trump sounds.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here it clearly states that God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.

Exactly. Wrath has come and is over at the 7th trumpet.

We can further support that wrath is over at the 7th trumpet by Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[The Light]

It says they come out of great tribulation, not The Great Tribulation. That is Matthew 24:9-14

It's the same thing. Those 1st six seals line up perfectly with what Jesus says in Matt 24. The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

James and Stephen were the first to come out of great tribulation meaning unto martyrdom. Those who remain faithful till their death. That end, not those who can last 100 years, or 3.5 years, or even 1 year. Faithful until the moment they die.

Jesus is not talking about the Church age, and neither is John. Revelation 6 contains the 6 seals which agrees perfectly with Matthew 24. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel and has nothing to do with the past nor the Church. It is the time when God turns His attention to His Chosen.

Yes the 144k are on earth during the Trumpets.

"and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea," the Trumpets

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The 144k were not hurt even though they were on the earth. Being sealed made them impervious.

Sure it looks like the 144,000 are on earth during the trumpets but they are not AS I HAVE PREVIOUSLY SHOWN. Those 144,000 are the first fruits of the harvest in Rev 7. They are removed from the earth BEFORE the Great Tribulation which is the 5th seal.

 

[Timtofly]

*The Length of Time For Satan to be given Great Power and his position of power and authority over the whole world, (some standing with him), (some rejecting him), is during the course of 7 years.
*Which at the same Time, those who are rejecting Satan, are being taught The Gospel of Christ the Lord Jesus...
1260 days (via 2 Witnesses) and continues 42 months (via 144,000 Israel Tribesmen of the 12 Tribes and A Lamb).
* It effects me none, IF you believe it or not.

How does 42 months equal 7 years? Satan either gets 42 months or 7 years, but it is one or the other. Revelation 13 claims 42 months. What Scripture do you base your 7 years on?

The last time I checked, 7 years is 84 months, not 42 months.

 

[Timtofly]

It's the same thing. Those 1st six seals line up perfectly with what Jesus says in Matt 24. The 5th seal is the great tribulation.



Jesus is not talking about the Church age, and neither is John. Revelation 6 contains the 6 seals which agrees perfectly with Matthew 24. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel and has nothing to do with the past nor the Church. It is the time when God turns His attention to His Chosen.


Sure it looks like the 144,000 are on earth during the trumpets but they are not AS I HAVE PREVIOUSLY SHOWN. Those 144,000 are the first fruits of the harvest in Rev 7. They are removed from the earth BEFORE the Great Tribulation which is the 5th seal.

There is no tribulation in the 5th Seal. The 5th Seal is about putting on robes of white. Symbolic of being glorified. The church is removed during the 5th and 6th Seals. The 144k are the disciples with Christ the Prince, while Jesus is on the earth. Read Matthew 13. Both Jesus and the angels are on the earth. They all come at the Second Coming. Then God chooses the 144k as His disciples, the firstfruits of the Millennial reign. They are always with Jesus during the Trumpets and Thunders.

The first century disciples only numbered 12 and went every where with Jesus. The Second Coming disciples will do the same thing, because they are witnesses to millions on earth, not just first century Palestine.

 

[ewq1938]

Exactly. Wrath has come and is over at the 7th trumpet.

The verse shows the wrath begins at the 7th trump. Your belief contradicts it.

 

[ewq1938]

It's the same thing. Those 1st six seals line up perfectly with what Jesus says in Matt 24. The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Wrong. The first seal speaks of part of what happens in the Great Tribulation. The 5th seal speaks of a time before the Great Tribulation when the dead saints were complaining.

The Great Tribulation starts when the 6th trump sounds and it ends when the 7th sounds.

 

[Taken]

How does 42 months equal 7 years? Satan either gets 42 months or 7 years, but it is one or the other. Revelation 13 claims 42 months. What Scripture do you base your 7 years on?

The last time I checked, 7 years is 84 months, not 42 months.

How does 42 months equal 7 years? Satan either gets 42 months or 7 years, but it is one or the other. Revelation 13 claims 42 months. What Scripture do you base your 7 years on?

The last time I checked, 7 years is 84 months, not 42 months.

1260 days (via 2 Witnesses) and continues 42 months (via 144,000 Israel Tribesmen of the 12 Tribes and A Lamb).

1260 days - 2 witnesses in Jerusalem (rev 11:3)
And
42 months - 144,000 / + a lamb - on Mt Zion
__________________________________
= 7 years

Scripture is a study of what is foretold, what shall come to pass, when something comes to pass, how to prepare.
(Not a billeted elementary fact sheet.)

Daniel’s prophetic vision via Gabriel foretells...
Evil shall come upon ISRAEL.
ISRAEL is a people, scattered across the world.
Majority of ISRAEL, in Jerusalem, a city headquarters of ISRAEL
Evil sent is for rejecting what God Sent.(Jesus)
Evil to be sent is power given Satan. (Power to control)
Evil being sent begins when the Lamb, begins opening the SEALS.
Evil power, revealed rev 6, each horseman describing its power.
After Evil Power IS sent, as well God sends His 2 Witnesses.
1260 days Gods 2 Witness with Power, Preach IN Jerusalem.
After 1260, 2 Witness are allowed to be Killed by Evil Powers.
That marks the 3.5 years time frame.
Daniel’s prophetic vision, Evil given Power makes a 3.5 week pac of world peace.
3.5 week duration of pac is broken, kills two witnesses, Cheers.
Evil Power, sits in Jerusalem Temple of ISRAEL, (abomination)
....Proclaims himself God..(abomination of desolation)
(Rev 13: 1-5)
ISRAEL (people) told to FLEE to Mt Zion. (Matt 24:16 and forward)
Mt Zion, 144,000 / 12,000 each of Israels Tribes and a Lamb.
The 144,000 preaching Gospel of Jesus the Christ, to all Tribes of Israel.
Preaching, 1260 days.
Evil Power is continuing, 42 months Rev 13:5.

 

[Taken]

@Timtofly

God Sent the Word of God. (Called Jesus) to the Jews.
Some Jews were accepting Jesus.
Jesus returned to Heaven.
Jews began rejecting Jesus.
Some, Gentiles began accepting Jewish God and Jewish Messiah.
Evil Power shall be unleashed upon ISRAEL. SEALS.
Because ISRAEL rejected Jesus, ISRAELS SAVIOR.
God IS Just. While ALLOWING Evil, God also Gives Truth to ISRAEL.
Gods TRIBULATION IS Gods Power of ALLOWING Evil to have Great Power...over ISRAEL, that rejected Jesus.
* THE WHY, is because, those who REJECT God/Jesus, shall receive what they CHOOSE, as THEIR MASTER... Goodness of the Lord God...OR...Evil of the same that is AGAINST God, ie Satan.
* Jerusalem has always been the holy city, earthly Temple/throne of God.
* Wickedness (men) have taken over Gods holy city.
* Evil shall take over Gods holy city, Temple, (already fully prepared to be re-built and dedicated to God) throne, proclaiming himself to be God. (Abomination of desolation)
* Jews instructed to flee the city, Ignore who is claiming himself God.
* The is come...for Separation of the Divided. ALL the Tribes to make their choice of WHO will be their Master...Good or Evil...
* The DIVIDED ARE...those with the Lord God, their Master...or those with evil, their master.
* Remember...Christ Jesus, IS Gods Salvation.
* It is not ONLY a matter of a man CHOOSING to be with Christ Jesus...(believing that Jesus IS the Christ)
BUT Specifically, for Gods Salvation (is HS baptism) to be ‘IN’ a man.
* What God foretold to ISRAEL, ISRAEL primarily ignored.
* What God foretold ISRAEL, is God WOULD SAVE ISRAEL, that chooses HIM.
* What occurred, was a major rejection of ISRAEL of Gods Messiah JESUS, and thereafter GENTILES given Gods WORD, Gods WORD unto the Gentiles, and the GENTILES, the SAME offering as the TRIBES of ISRAEL.
* Believe (unto the day of ones BODILY DEATH), in God and His Messiah Jesus, the Word of God, the Christ quickening Holy Spirit of God......AND “at the day of ones Bodily DEATH...they SHALL BE SAVE”.
* That is a HOPE, that a man hopes to endure, KEEP believing to the day of his bodily Death, and he shall be saved.
* A NEW Covenant, Promise, Surety, offered WHEN Jesus was SENT TO EARTH....SALVATION...NOW...BODILY DEATH “requirement” to RECEIVE SALVATION, forever WITH God....ie the man FREEWILL election TO BE, “bodily CRUCIFIED WITH Jesus”....Death requirement, that a body MUST DIE BEFORE it can RECEIVE SALVATION...is MET! (If and when a man so heart-fully, freely choose TO BE crucified WITH Christ.).
* Many Men (Jews and Gentiles) BELIEVE in Jesus...BUT HAVE NOT CHOSEN TO BE “crucified” with JESUS.
^ THEY CAN NOT receive SALVATION, until their BODY IS DEAD...
(Crucified with Jesus...or physically KILLED).
* Men’s CHOICES...DO not DECIDE WHEN God SHALL SEND prophesied EVIL into the World...
* WHEN God Decides to SEND prophesied EVIL (with Power) ie SEALS, into the WORLD, Gods DECISION SHALL EFFECT, every man, ACCORDING TO THAT MANS FREEWILL CHOICE....
* Already having become crucified with Jesus? Not subject to Wrath
* Believing, but have NOT given their body unto death? Shall participate in the Tribulation, subject to Wrath. Bodily killed. Saved.
* Not believing, shall live through portions of the Trib, eventually killed. Not Saved.

Divisions of Earthly men’s, beliefs, choices, WITH God, not particularly Secret.
Divisions of Earthly men’s, choices, “IN” Christ, is best guess by implication. Only an individual and God Himself KNOWS for sure, which INDIVIDUALS .... ARE or ARE NOT, “IN” Christ, already having RECEIVED their SALVATION, and NOT subject to WRATH or participants in the lasts days TRIBULATION Gods sends, authorizes, allows, perpetuates.

It is a Scriptural Study, to know the Truth, to know your choices, to know what what to expect for the choices you do or do not make.

 

[Taken]

@Timtofly

Inanutshell:

* Gods IS ANGRY, that MANY of His MANKIND Creations REJECT Him.
* Gods ANGER has been INCREASING for centuries.
* God SHALL react with WRATH upon that which has ANGERED Him.
* God HAS PROMISED to KEEP His MANKIND Creations that ARE WITH Him, FREE FROM HIS WRATH.
* God HAS PROMISED to DESTROY His MANKIND Creations that are WITHOUT Him.
* Those WHO ARE SAVED, shall not suffer Wrath. They are already, WITH God forever.
* Those WHO ARE NOT SAVED, shall suffer His Wrath.
* His WRATH is already FORETOLD, shall Come upon the Worlds inhabitants of MANKIND (AGAINST Him) in increments of increased intensity of suffering.
* During ANYTIME of the increments, suffering MANKIND (of Gods WRATH,) can CHOOSE, to become, WITH Him, which SHALL require, that man to WILLINGLY, give his own bodily life unto PHYSICAL DEATH, FOR choosing to BE WITH God.
* THAT does NOT apply to a man WHO ALREADY HAS willingly given his life, TO GOD, crucified WITH Jesus.

I can not read it for you.
I can not study it for you.
That is your choice to read, study, know, choose, or not.
What you choose affects me not.
What I choose affect you not.
What you agree with me or not, affects me not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[The Light]

The verse shows the wrath begins at the 7th trump. Your belief contradicts it.

My beliefs contradict?

All I am doing is reading what it says. I don't have to make anything up. It's right there. Just read it.

In Rev 10 it says the mystery of God is FINISHED when the 7th trumpet begins to sound.
In Rev 11 it says:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Just use some common sense and read what it says. It says the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. THAT MEANS CHRIST HAS SET UP HIS KINGDOM. He has already returned. That means that Armageddon has already happened.

If we would just read what the Word says and believe what it says everything falls into place perfectly. But we can't do that. We spend our time solving imaginary problems. We make the Church to be Israel. We make the 144,000 to be the Church. We do all kind of NONSENSE for nothing.

So just read what it says. Christ has set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet and the wrath of God is over. Simple.

 

[The Light]

Wrong. The first seal speaks of part of what happens in the Great Tribulation. The 5th seal speaks of a time before the Great Tribulation when the dead saints were complaining.

The Great Tribulation starts when the 6th trump sounds and it ends when the 7th sounds.

You are confusing the tribulation with the wrath of God. The first seal is the rider on the white horse. He is a false Christ and that lines up perfectly with what Jesus tells us in Matt 24 when false Christs come. There will be a 7th and 8th king and both will be false Christs. The rider on the white is the 7th king.

 

[ewq1938]

You are confusing the tribulation with the wrath of God.

No I haven't. The Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath comes after the Great Tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

My beliefs contradict?

All I am doing is reading what it says. I don't have to make anything up. It's right there. Just read it.

Reading isn't enough. One must understand it. Decades of studying and praying led me to understand the seals are only information about future events. Trumpets have always signaled action to happen. That's when the events mentioned in the seals will take place. The 6th seal is describing 7th trump events just like when Christ gave the Olivet Discourse and spoke about his return after the Great Tribulation was over. Describing something do4sn't automatically means the events are happening right there and then.

 

[Timtofly]

Glory to God,
Taken

Ok, but you have the chronological order flipped.

Revelation 11 is not about the 6th Trumpet. The 7 Thunders come between the 6th and 7th Trumpets. Revelation 10 already ended the 6th Trumpet and moved on to the 7 Thunders. Once the 7 Thunders were completed, John was about to write, but told not to. Then John introduces the reader to the days of the 7th Trumpet. From Revelation 10:5 all the way to Revelation 19:21 cover the days of the 7th Trumpet. Even the 7 vials are incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. When the 7th Trumpet stops, Daniel's 70th week will be finished, no more time.

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Gabriel told Daniel about the 70 weeks. Gabriel should be the archangel sounding the end of this time with the 7th sounding of John's Trumpets. So chapter 11 is the same 42 months as chapter 13. This 42 months splits the week of the 7th Trumpet in half, per Gabriel in Daniel 9:27. Instead of only blowing the Trumpet from Sunday to Sunday, Gabriel may have to keep sounding for the whole 42 months. So those 3.5 days when the 2 witnesses are dead is the last half of the week of days. Armageddon will be over on Sunday between 5pm and 6pm. The one hour the 10 kings come together with Satan. 6pm starts the Millennium as well as ends the 7th Trumpet and Daniel's 70th week.

But if there is no 42 months. The final harvest will be over at the 7th Trumpet. The week will end. The winepress of chapter 14 will happen on Sunday. The Millennium will still start at 6pm on Sunday.

The 144k are on earth from the 7th Seal until the 7th Trumpet. Jesus and the angels are on earth from the 6th Seal until the 7th Trumpet. God's wrath is being removed from the Lamb's book of life and being placed in Death. No take backs. At the end of the Millenniun, Death is emptied into the Lake of Fire.

 

[The Light]

No I haven't. The Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath comes after the Great Tribulation.

Reading isn't enough. One must understand it. Decades of studying and praying led me to understand the seals are only information about future events. Trumpets have always signaled action to happen. That's when the events mentioned in the seals will take place. The 6th seal is describing 7th trump events just like when Christ gave the Olivet Discourse and spoke about his return after the Great Tribulation was over. Describing something do4sn't automatically means the events are happening right there and then.

You are just plain wrong about the 6th seal describing 7th trumpet events. Again, the seals are the 70th week of Daniel. They are not open. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. We can prove that WITHOUT QUESTION. All we have to do is read what it says.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Immediately after the tribulation, the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars occur. This marks the second coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Jesus comes and remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. THEN the wrath of God occurs and begins with the 1st trumpet.

How are you missing this? How are you not understanding that the seals line up perfectly with Matthew 24 and are actionable events?

 

[The Light]

The 144k are on earth from the 7th Seal until the 7th Trumpet. Jesus and the angels are on earth from the 6th Seal until the 7th Trumpet.

No. The 144,000 are in heaven sometime in the 1st four seals. They are the first fruits of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. If the harvest occurs at the 6th seal, you should know that the 1st fruits are presented before the throne before that. Since the 5th seal is the great tribulation, it is likely that the 144,000 are raptured to heaven before the 5th seal.

As far Jesus and the angels, yes, Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal, second coming. However, Jesus remains in the clouds and all those from heaven and earth go to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why you see the great multitude in Rev. 7.

The 144,000 DO NOT go through the wrath of God that begins at the 1st trumpet.

 

[ewq1938]

You are just plain wrong about the 6th seal describing 7th trumpet events.

No, I am not wrong.

 

[Taken]

Ok, but you have the chronological order flipped.

Revelation 11 is not about the 6th Trumpet.

You did not quote me, saying anything about Rev. 11 being about the 6th Trump....so what are you talking about?