Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[Truman]

Christian Bumper Cars...alright!

 

[Truman]

I’ve heard of the new math, but what kind of math turns 144,000 into 3-5 million?

The 144,000 have nothing to do with those who flee into the desert for protection in Revelation 12.

The 144,000 are sealed and protected.

Inflation would be my guess.

 

[Taken]

The verse shows the wrath begins at the 7th trump. Your belief contradicts it.

How would you consider the following?

* Regularly, historically, men on earth experience Tribulations; conflicts, failures, hard times, anger, wrath, hopes dashed, etc.
* TWO times, specific times frames, Gods anger is SO kindled, God reacts with Great Wrath, causing Great Tribulation to come down FROM Heaven, BY His Authority and His Power, of He who sits in Heaven.
* Gods Wrath, (that comes down from Heaven); is to cause HAVOC, unpleasant disturbances OF occupants UPON the face of the Earth.
* Gods Wrath, that is revealed upon the face of the Earth, and upon that which occupies the face of the Earth....IS; expressly revealed IN
Increments, bit by bit, increasing in severity.


Rom 1
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 5
[9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Eph 5:
[6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

1 Thes 1:
[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us (justified, delivered, saved, converted) to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...

** I view the Wrath “OF” God, that comes down from Heaven...
Visibly marks the beginning of “Gods Tribulation.”
*Once historically revealed, The FLOOD, began in increments, increased, ended with Every living thing with Gods breath of life UPON the face of the Earth, DESTROYED/killed.
*The Second and Last, to be revealed, THE FIRE, beginning in increments, increased, ended with Every living thing with Gods breath of life UPON the face of the Earth, DESTROYED/killed.

** I view the Wrath “OF” God, beginning:
WHEN the Lamb Opens SEAL 1... and WHAT the opening of SEAL 1
Does, IS SENDS down from Heaven...POWER (increase) FROM God, TO: the Devil/satan/...in preparation for “the devil” to ...
Conquer, control, destroy, etc. men... a gathering of his army “WITH” him, and killing men “REJECTING” him.
Opening of SEALS...2, 3, 4......is Satan’s, POWER (increment increases) that reveals WHAT POWER (has come down from Heaven), for things, Satan, CAN DO...(with the Power (increases) from Heaven he is given.

** It appears, men think, Gods Great Wrath is LIMITED, to Gods direction to His angels to POUR out the Vials.

My point is,
I believe;
~Gods Great Anger, has been INCREASING for centuries.
~Gods Great Wrath, is the Point where Gods Anger, turn to Gods Action .....Against what has Angered Him.
~Gods Great Second and Last Great Tribulation BEGINS Gods Action of WRATH, in increments...
~Reeking havocs, fear, punishments, suffering, disappointments, wonderments, etc. BY, THROUGH, OF....the Power of God SENT to Earth, and that POWER, revealed IN....that which God has given whatever “thing” Gods increased Power to ACT....(such as satan given power to quickly raise millions in an army, conquer, kill, etc.) Lightening Strikes given great power to burn millions of trees, Mountains given great power to move out of their place, etc.)

Rev 6 Begins notifying us of the revealing of 4 horsemen, and the power each is given, and the suffering their POWER causes, and it’s increase, as seal after seal is opened, and men recognize it is Power the has come down from Heaven, men call that: the Wrath of the Lamb (who is sitting in Heaven), only He having authority to break the SEALS, and allow those 4 horsemen “THEIR” increase of Power from God.

Wouldn’t this be considered the Wrath of God, coming down from Heaven?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Show me ANYWHERE, where the 144,000 (who are really the 3-5 million Jews who repent) are shown preaching. I will eat those pages as copied by me on a copier, SMILE, if you can show me where there are 144,000 preaching evangelists. “servants the prophets”

Neh 6:
[7] And thou hast also appointed prophets to preach ...

The 144,000 ARE “servants and prophets”...

Rev 10:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 144,000 are “not really” Jews.
Jews are Tribesmen of the Tribe of Judah.
The 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel.
(Rev 7: 4-8)

 

[Timtofly]

You did not quote me, saying anything about Rev. 11 being about the 6th Trump....so what are you talking about?

You posted 4 whole segments. What were you talking about? They will not fit back into one post.

Somewhere above you said that Revelation 11 is part of the 6th Trumpet. It is not. It is about the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Taken]

You posted 4 whole segments. What were you talking about? They will not fit back into one post.

Somewhere above you said that Revelation 11 is part of the 6th Trumpet. It is not. It is about the 7th Trumpet.

Point is, IF you are responding to .... Rev 11 being part of the 6th Trumpet....Best to quote THAT ... then proceed with your disagreement....instead of SPEAKING for me, then disagreeing.

I find no place I said what you claim.

 

[Davy]

You posted 4 whole segments. What were you talking about? They will not fit back into one post.

Somewhere above you said that Revelation 11 is part of the 6th Trumpet. It is not. It is about the 7th Trumpet.

You're no doubt confused. I was the one who stated that Revelation 11 contains events of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

And to know this, all it takes is just a little bit of brain power. Since Revelation 11:14-18 reveals that Lord Jesus Christ has RETURNED with all the kingdoms of this world becoming those of His and The Father's, that links the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe with His coming.

So... since Jesus is shown having returned on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, it stands to reason that the time just PRIOR to that is the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

And since the time just PRIOR to Christ's future return we know is the time of the "great tribulation" according to Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and per Daniel in Daniel 12:1-2, it's a no brainer to realize the "great tribulation" time in Revelation 11 is with the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period prior to Christ's return.

 

[The Light]

And the angels will need to gather us from the four corners of heavens.

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

The gathering before the wrath of God is the gathering from heaven and earth.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

"Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

This can't happen until after the thousand years are finished.

In the 8th millennium.

That's where the real fun begins.

The kingdom that will come is when the Lord sets up His kingdom on the earth. This will happen at the end of the wrath of God, BEFORE the 1000 years.
Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Timtofly]

You're no doubt confused. I was the one who stated that Revelation 11 contains events of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

And to know this, all it takes is just a little bit of brain power. Since Revelation 11:14-18 reveals that Lord Jesus Christ has RETURNED with all the kingdoms of this world becoming those of His and The Father's, that links the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe with His coming.

So... since Jesus is shown having returned on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, it stands to reason that the time just PRIOR to that is the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

And since the time just PRIOR to Christ's future return we know is the time of the "great tribulation" according to Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and per Daniel in Daniel 12:1-2, it's a no brainer to realize the "great tribulation" time in Revelation 11 is with the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period prior to Christ's return.

You totally left out the 7 Thunders in Revelation 10.

But Taken did as well in a post.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

You just made that up on the fly didn't you? LOL, there is no 144,000 mentioned anywhere in Rev. 10. I was beginning to think you might be Adam Schiff.

The 144,000 are “not really” Jews.
Jews are Tribesmen of the Tribe of Judah.
The 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel.
(Rev 7: 4-8)

They are ALL Israel who Repents, Zechariah 13:8-9 says they are 1/3, thus they are 3-5 million Jews who repents. WHY? Not JUST BECAUSE like you did with Rev. 10, I have an understanding with REASON behind it, the book of Revelation is encoded by the Old Testament and God uses numbers as stand ins all throughout the Olde Testament.

So, did God save Himself 7000 or 144,000? Which is it? Well BOTH work out to ALL Israel because...............................7 (Divine Completion) x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 7000. And 12 (Fullness) x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is 144,000. Why is it no one seems to think its strange God having PERFECT NUMBERS lie this, He gives us FREE WIILL, there is no way these numbers always come out perfectly squared off. In this instance, you just do not understand this God Speak. Most don't, I do however because its my calling, I am not just toying around via Eschatology as some do.

 

[Dave Watchman]

God can change the earth in an instant.

God can do anything. Jesus said that with God all things are POSSIBLE. But would God, could God, do anything to violate his own righteous rule? When He did not spare His own Son?

But delivered Him up for us all

The earth does not have feelings where it needs to take a break.

That's what the Script makes it sound like. Like when Abel's blood cried out from the ground. In God's Speak blood can cry, the Earth can vomit out it's inhabitants and fire can come forth from the mouth of the Bible and kill it's enemies. It's the personification of an inanimate object.

Of course the land of Israel rested.

And it enjoyed it's rest. God said it would. All the time that they were gone.

"Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths.​

No one was left to "work it to death".

You said it. I rest my case. "No one was left to "work it to death". The "land" can die.

"Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.​

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Dave Watchman]

The kingdom that will come is when the Lord sets up His kingdom on the earth. This will happen at the end of the wrath of God, BEFORE the 1000 years.

Sorry man, this can't happen until the thousand years in heaven are finished.

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Heaven must receive Jesus, (and then we with Him), until the time comes to restore all things new again.

Jesus told Caiaphas that the next time he sees Him, He will be seated at the right hand of His Father, and "coming with the clouds of heaven.”.

“Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”​

Why is this not an accurate description of the second coming, or second visitation?

Because every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” - Revelation 1:7​

This is a description of a coming of Christ that will occur AFTER the thousand years are finished. It is only AFTER the thousand years are finished, at the second resurrection, that every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) That's when “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him".

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Taken]

You just made that up on the fly didn't you? LOL, there is no 144,000 mentioned anywhere in Rev. 10. I was beginning to think you might be Adam Schiff.

What you SHOULD have grasped, is Rev 7 introduced Gods 144,000 SERVANTS Sealed with Gods SEAL.

What you SHOULD have grasped, is Rev 10:7 verifies they ARE prophets and servants of God!

Are you 5 and require repetitive notification of who is being identified?

They are ALL Israel who Repents, Zechariah 13:8-9 says they are 1/3, thus they are 3-5 million Jews who repents. WHY? Not JUST BECAUSE like you did with Rev. 10, I have an understanding with REASON behind it, the book of Revelation is encoded by the Old Testament and God uses numbers as stand ins all throughout the Olde Testament.

Unlike you, I do not require to be told repeatedly WHAT Servants God is sending, WHEN, and for what purpose.
* Gods TWO, “unsealed” witness are sent to Jerusalem...FOR the Benefit of the JEWS to Hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, FROM the mouths of their BRETHREN, Hebrew Prophets.
* Gods 144,000 and a Lamb “sealed” servants are sent to Mt Zion...FOR the Benefit of ALL the Tribes of ISRAEL, to Hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, FROM the mouths of their TRIBAL BRETHREN, Servants of God, from EACH of the Twelve Tribes.
* And FOR ALL men upon the face of the Earth, Jews, Gentiles, not Hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, IN Jerusalem, or ON Mt. Zion...
* NO worries...ONE OTHER SERVANT of God, with the Gospel of Jesus Christ in his mouth, SHALL speak the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Every man on the face of the EARTH, SHALL Hear. (Rev 14:6)

So, did God save Himself 7000 or 144,000? Which is it? Well BOTH work out to ALL Israel because...............................7 (Divine Completion) x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 7000. And 12 (Fullness) x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is 144,000. Why is it no one seems to think its strange God having PERFECT NUMBERS lie this, He gives us FREE WIILL,

Many men’s fascination with Numerology tends to go beyond the scope of Scripture.
God Word is Gods direction to focus on His TEACHING, via HIS Word.
God Word expressly teaches for man to FOCUS on Being PREPARED, according to HIS WAY, and not worry about the NUMBER of the day, He shall call to Him, those WHO HAVE PREPARED to BE called unto Him.

...here is no way these numbers always come out perfectly squared off. In this instance, you just do not understand this God Speak. Most don't, I do however because its my calling, I am not just toying around via Eschatology as some do.

Not news. Men created and recreated and recreated Calendars...
Calendars, by moon phases, by sunrises, with Month Titles arranged first and changed, with days, changed, omitted, with hours, minutes, regularly changed....and then think they can “Calculate” Prophecy.

Not news. Hear Gods Word, freely choose believe it or not. Be PREPARED for the consequences of your choices, BE ones choices;
* Hearing, Believing, Committing.
....^ Confidant to Forever BE WITH God.
* Hearing, Believing, Remaining open to Change ones Belief.
....^ UNsure to Forever BE WITH or WITHOUT God, wait and see.
* Hearing, Not Believing.
...^ Confidant to BE WITH-OUT God.

 

[Timtofly]

You said it. I rest my case. "No one was left to "work it to death". The "land" can die.

For 70 years. That was already fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity. The earth is hardly worked to death now. Don't believe all the hype.

So Jesus will be sitting on the throne in Jerusalem all by Himself, looking out over a desolate empty earth, because God is not powerful enough and/or listened to a few humans who declared God should let the earth rest for 1,000 years?

 

[Davy]

You totally left out the 7 Thunders in Revelation 10.

But Taken did as well in a post.

The seven thunders are NOT mentioned in the Revelation 11 Chapter, and doesn't matter with you anyway, since you don't understand what the seven thunders really mean.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

What you SHOULD have grasped, is Rev 7 introduced Gods 144,000 SERVANTS Sealed with Gods SEAL.

What you SHOULD have grasped, is Rev 10:7 verifies they ARE prophets and servants of God!

Are you 5 and require repetitive notification of who is being identified?

No, what you did is imply that, what the 144,000 are is the Jews who repent and I state why God uses the numbers in a very detailed manner which makes Rev. 10 irrelevant anyway. We are all servants of Gid, but the 144,000 will be in a very different place, they need God's PROTECTION for 1260 days so they will be doing nothing for God purpose for those 1260 days, their purpose is to repopulate Israel, and to be the Kingdom Jesus was promised, the Kingdom Age he preached which was to come.

Many men’s fascination with Numerology tends to go beyond the scope of Scripture.
God Word is Gods direction to focus on His TEACHING, via HIS Word.
God Word expressly teaches for man to FOCUS on Being PREPARED, according to HIS WAY, and not worry about the NUMBER of the day, He shall call to Him, those WHO HAVE PREPARED to BE called unto Him.

God uses numbers throughout the Old Testament, if you do not know this its on you, I am way more advanced on Eschatology it seems than you are. If you really try to say Gid doesn't use numbers I can blow you out of the waters on that.

 

[ewq1938]

No, what you did is imply that, what the 144,000 are is the Jews who repent

The bible doesn't say anything about that regarding the 144k. They are sealed before the Great Tribulation so they were saved Christians before the sealing.

 

[covenantee]

144,000.

A profoundly spiritual number.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

• Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

• Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[The Light]

Sorry man, this can't happen until the thousand years in heaven are finished.

Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet when The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Then the judgement.

Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

Heaven must receive Jesus, (and then we with Him), until the time comes to restore all things new again.

Jesus told Caiaphas that the next time he sees Him, He will be seated at the right hand of His Father, and "coming with the clouds of heaven.”.

“Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”​

Why is this not an accurate description of the second coming, or second visitation?

Because every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” - Revelation 1:7​

This is a description of a coming of Christ that will occur AFTER the thousand years are finished. It is only AFTER the thousand years are finished, at the second resurrection, that every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) That's when “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him".

Peaceful Sabbath.

I am not aware that Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the 1000 years. I believe He returns to earth at Armageddon and then sets up His kingdom on earth and remains to rule and reign with a rod of iron for 1000 years.

Additionally, the second coming OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Thirdly we are not sure how Caiaphas will be judged. Could he be forgiven, and therefore not judged after the 1000 years, but before.

 

[ewq1938]

Additionally, the second coming OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL.

No, the second coming is DESCRIBED IN THE 6TH SEAL. The second coming OCCURS AT THE 7TH TRUMP.