Trinity Belief and Born Again?

[Rich R]

You are confusing the "Godhead", with the "Persons", who are not "things". These are two opposites

Let me get this right; the Godhead is opposite than a person, therefore God is not a person? He is the opposite of a person, i.e. a thing. You said it, not me.

All you have to do is let go of tradition and you won't have to wiggle and squeeze the normal meaning of simple words, such as "father" and "son."

 

[Triumph1300]

“Faith alone”?

Charity

Deut. 6:5
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing.

1 cor 13:12 now abide faith, hope, and charity, and the greatest of these is charity.

If salvation was by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!!!

If we are saved by faith alone then when we first believed we would be saved?

Romans 13:11
…our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Are you saying that these points don't come after a person is born again?
Are you saying these points are not part of it and are different and need to be "worked" at in order to "work your way into heaven"......

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Let me get this right; the Godhead is opposite than a person, therefore God is not a person? He is the opposite of a person, i.e. a thing. You said it, not me.

All you have to do is let go of tradition and you won't have to wiggle and squeeze the normal meaning of simple words, such as "father" and "son."

Lets try again

The Godhead is the "essential nature"

The Three distinct Persons are "essentially" one

John 10.30 is a good example. The literal English from the Greek is

I and the Father we are one

WE ARE is masculine plural, meaning TWO DISTRICT PERSONS

ONE is neuter singular, meaning ONE THING, or ESSENCE

 

[theefaith]

Are you saying that these points don't come after a person is born again?
Are you saying these points are not part of it and are different and need to be "worked" at in order to "work your way into heaven"......

you say “faith alone” then comes works

we say

We are members of Christ in his grace and filled with his spirit!

All our actions are meritorious baptized into Christ and his church! 1 cor 12:13 put on Christ! Gal 3:27

1 Corinthians 12:26
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Religion is what man owes to God for having created him in His image and likeness!

To Christ for having redeemed him in His own blood!

to the Holy Spirit for sanctifying him in the sacraments of holy mother church!

it only Christ by His grace (merits of His blood passion and death) that we are enabled and empowered to actually be holy and righteous and all our actions

if we live by the spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh

my grace is sufficient for you

Phil 4:13 I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me.

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing!

our participation is required

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, (his grace and virtues work in us healing our defective nature and enabling us to be righteous and holy accomplishing his holy will!
Ez 36:25-27



Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind (lacking) of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) zealous of good works. (Sanctification)

Matt 24:13 endure to the end.

those who die in the grace of God are saved!

 

[theefaith]

There is nothing we can do???


Does the will of God:
Those who hear the Word of God and do it!
Ez 36:25-27
Matt 7:21
Matt 12:50
Mk 3:35
Lk 8:21
Lk 11:28
Jn 5:30
Jn7:17
Rom 12:2
Rev 17:7

Doer of the word
James 1:22-23

Keep my commandments:
Matt 28:20
Jn 14:21

Things we must do:

Matt 5:8
Matt 7:14 narrow road leads to life
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him
Lk 1:4 be instructed
Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 Jn 3:22 ez 36:25 baptism

Must repent and do penance
Matt 3:2
Matt 3:8
Matt 4:17
Matt 9:13
Matt 16:24
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19

Must believe and continue in a state of believing:
Jn3:16

Endure to the end:
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:26
Heb 3:14
Heb 6:11
Romans 11:22
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 12:22-25
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 John 2:24-25
2 John 8-9
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Timothy 2:11-13

 

[Rich R]

Lets try again

The Godhead is the "essential nature"

The Three distinct Persons are "essentially" one

I trust you realize you have left scripture and are wandering around in tradition? I mean, there's nothing about an "essential nature" in the actual scriptures. The same with three distinct persons being "essentially" one. In fact, that is a good example of what I meant by "wiggling" and "squeezing" the meaning of simple words.

Like I said, God has become a thing, i.e. and essence.

John 10.30 is a good example. The literal English from the Greek is

I and the Father we are one

WE ARE is masculine plural, meaning TWO DISTRICT PERSONS

ONE is neuter singular, meaning ONE THING, or ESSENCE

So what do we do with what Jesus said later on in John?

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
​

"They" is plural and "one" is singular, exactly same structure as you pointed out in John 10:30.

Maybe being "one" with someone isn't the same as actually being that someone? Have you ever read something like, "the crowd acted as one...?" We all know what that means. It means many people were united in the same purpose and goal. Why couldn't that be what Jesus meant in John 10:30? If we did that it would solve an untold number of problems. We wouldn't have to explain John 17:3 not making Jesus the Father, which absolutely flies not only in the face of the scriptures, but the trinity doctrine itself which never claims Jesus is the Father.

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

This agrees with Corinthians,

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

Clearly, the Father is the one true God, so Jesus is either the Father or he is not the true God. The former obviously creates many problems, while the latter creates no problems whatsoever. With the former, we are forced to abandon the normal meaning of simple words, grammar, and concepts. With the latter we can employ the normal meaning of simple words, grammar, and concepts.

 

[Bob Estey]

In Jesus name?

Yes.

 

[Triumph1300]

those who die in the grace of God are saved!

Yup! The ones accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I.o.w the ones believing in what Jesus did at the cross and His resurrection.
I.o.w. The ones who are born again.
Spare me your "work your way into heaven doctrine".
Are you a United Pentecostal?


Good works do not produce salvation. Good works are the product of salvation.
Jesus said to His followers, “Let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven”

(Copy and paste as many scriptures as you like. It all boils down to being born again and the rest falls into place by the Holy Spirit)

 

[theefaith]

Yup! The ones accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I.o.w the ones believing in what Jesus did at the cross and His resurrection.
I.o.w. The ones who are born again.
Spare me your "work your way into heaven doctrine".
Are you a United Pentecostal?

(Copy and paste as many scriptures as you like. It all boils down to being born again and the rest falls into place by the Holy Spirit)

no not Pentecostal

and being born again is baptismal regeneration Jn 3:5

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

not faith alone!

 

[PinSeeker]

Verse one talks about the "logos" ("word" in English). It is not good to change that word to "Jesus."

No trinitarian is actually doing that, Rich. But John himself does go on, just a few verses later, to say, in verse 14, "...the Word (Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Better to see what the logos actually is.

Yes, I agree.

Logos is a Greek word literally translated as "word, speech, or utterance." However, in Greek philosophy, Logos refers to divine reason or the power that puts sense into the world making order instead of chaos. It is the idea of a word uttered by a living voice that embodies a concept or teaches a doctrine. It is how ideas are communicated and brought to life. Though the translation of the term logos is the simple term word, it must be noted that logos carried a lot of philosophical baggage in the ancient Greek world. Ancient Greek philosophy was concerned with answering the ultimate questions of reality. They were seeking to find ultimate truth. They wanted to find the ultimate reality that lies behind all other things. Over time, as the ancient philosophers pondered these questions, they came up with a term to describe this ultimate reality, and the term they came up with was logos. The logos came to be understood as that which gave life and meaning to the universe. Within the realm of Greek philosophy, however, this logos was largely understood to be an impersonal force, not a personal being.

Hebrew philosophy had a similar concept to the Greek Logos where life-giving God Himself was referred to in the terms "the Word of God." In Genesis 15:1, the Bible states, "After these things, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: 'Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great'." Jewish rabbis used this phrase, "the Word of God," to refer to God Himself. In fact, ancient Hebrew editions of the Old Testament changed Exodus 19:17 from "Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God" to "…to meet the Word of God." So both Greek and Jewish philosophy used the expression "Word" to refer to God, His divine reasoning, and His connection with the world.

In the Gospel of John, John writes "In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). John appealed to his readers by saying in essence, "You've been thinking, talking, and writing about the Word for centuries and now I will tell you who He is." Thus John introduced Jesus in terms his audience understood, showing that Jesus is God. He wrote that the Word was "in the beginning" meaning He is eternal; that He was "with God" in heaven equal to God before coming to earth; that "all things were made through him" (John 1:3) showing that He is Creator and is Himself an uncreated being (note, too, the similarities between John 1 and Genesis 1); and that He "became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14) showing Jesus to be God incarnate. It is not until verse 17 that John names this Logos as Jesus Christ ~ "...grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." He wanted his readers to engage with the realities of what they meant when they spoke of the Logos or "Word of God" and how all those things are fulfilled in the person of Jesus. Jesus is God Himself who brings life and order to the chaos of our world. His incarnation was how God connected with the world, and John used the phrase Logos to help his audience connect with Jesus in a way that made sense to them.

Unlike the recent past when anything trinity was suppressed, it is incredible easy to do one's own research today, thanks to the internet. There is no shortage of scholarly work that covers John 1 that shows it in a decidedly not-trinitarian way.

It has been said that the great thing about the internet is you can find whatever you want to find, but the terrible thing about the internet is (also) that you can find whatever you want to find.

John used the word "logos" to refute how the Greeks thought of the logos.

In a way, but not the way you want to suppose. See above.

John revealed the true logos...

That he did.

...it's not Jesus.

Yes, it is, Rich. As Jesus Himself stated (quoted by John), "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He Himself was (and is) the answer to the ultimate questions of reality. He is the ultimate truth. They wanted to find the ultimate reality that lies behind all other things.

John stated his purpose in John 20:31.

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.​

​

Absolutely. But many soft-pedal what it actually means for Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God.

I believe Jesus is the Christ, the anointed Messiah.

Great! But you're making that out to mean far less than it really means.

I also believe he is the son of God.

Great! Yes, he's the Son of God. But like I said before, Rich, Jesus is also the Son of Man; He refers to Himself as such several times. So which one is He more of, and which one is He less of, or... is He equally both?

What John did not say, and what I do not believe, is that Jesus is God.

But He did. In John 1:1. and then he spent his entire gospel showing that. Like you pointed out, it was his purpose in writing his gospel.

I know the whole "echad" argument meaning a compound unity, but I don't believe that.

That's too bad.

If it were we would have Abraham being a trinity, since he's called "echad" in Ex 33:24.

I'm not at all sure what you're referring to here, Rich. First, there is no verse 24 of Exodus 33, and second, the main character in Exodus (besides God, of course) is Moses. Maybe you're talking about verses like Exodus 33:1, where God said to Moses, “Depart; go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought up out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your offspring I will give it.’"? Or maybe you're talking about God's having made Abraham the father of many nations? I mean that's Genesis 17... In any case, Abraham is never referred to in any similar sense to God.

...lacking solid evidence anywhere else that God is a trinity...

The ancient Israelites knew very well that God was an "us." From Genesis 1 on.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I trust you realize you have left scripture and are wandering around in tradition? I mean, there's nothing about an "essential nature" in the actual scriptures. The same with three distinct persons being "essentially" one. In fact, that is a good example of what I meant by "wiggling" and "squeezing" the meaning of simple words.

Like I said, God has become a thing, i.e. and essence.



So what do we do with what Jesus said later on in John?

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
​

"They" is plural and "one" is singular, exactly same structure as you pointed out in John 10:30.

Maybe being "one" with someone isn't the same as actually being that someone? Have you ever read something like, "the crowd acted as one...?" We all know what that means. It means many people were united in the same purpose and goal. Why couldn't that be what Jesus meant in John 10:30? If we did that it would solve an untold number of problems. We wouldn't have to explain John 17:3 not making Jesus the Father, which absolutely flies not only in the face of the scriptures, but the trinity doctrine itself which never claims Jesus is the Father.

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

This agrees with Corinthians,

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

Clearly, the Father is the one true God, so Jesus is either the Father or he is not the true God. The former obviously creates many problems, while the latter creates no problems whatsoever. With the former, we are forced to abandon the normal meaning of simple words, grammar, and concepts. With the latter we can employ the normal meaning of simple words, grammar, and concepts.

The Incomparable Jesus Christ In The Prologue of John

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

One God The Father, One Lord Jesus Christ

 

[ChristisGod]

Let me get this right; the Godhead is opposite than a person, therefore God is not a person? He is the opposite of a person, i.e. a thing. You said it, not me.

All you have to do is let go of tradition and you won't have to wiggle and squeeze the normal meaning of simple words, such as "father" and "son."

Yet the Father/Son were together before creation- John 17:5

And we know only God existed before creation.

next

 

[theefaith]

1 pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 pet 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

 

[theefaith]

1 pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 pet 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

 

[theefaith]

Check out 160 reasons Jesus is God!

In the Bible study forum!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Check out 160 reasons Jesus is God!

You can easily find scriptures that reasonably prove that Jesus is not God.

Do not belabor something that the Bible itself does not belabor.

 

[theefaith]

You can easily find scriptures that reasonably prove that Jesus is not God.

Do not belabor something that the Bible itself does not belabor.

pray tell?

make your list!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

pray tell?

make your list!

I haven’t compiled a list because this topic is not important to me either way. But here’s one (of many):

“…God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.” (Acts 10:38)

This would have been a good opportunity to elevate such a doctrine of the “trinity” if it were as vital as many make it out to be. Why didn’t God inspire the writer to say “for he was God” in closing instead of “for God was with him”?

 

[theefaith]

I haven’t compiled a list because this topic is not important to me either way. But here’s one (of many):

“…God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.” (Acts 10:38)

This would have been a good opportunity to elevate such a doctrine of the “trinity” if it were as vital as many make it out to be. Why didn’t God inspire the writer to say “for he was God” in closing instead of “for God was with him”?

Cos it refers to his human nature!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Cos it refers to his human nature!

Nope.

Because Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15)

Not he that believes that Jesus is God.