Unsaved people can't possibly know that Jesus is God until after they are born again so that means it isn't vital to our salvation.
Trinity Belief and Born Again?
- Thread starter Rich R
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I sure did receive the down payment of Gods Spirit before I realized He was God. In fact, I told Jesus I would only talk to Him but not to God because I was angry with God at what He allowed to happen to Him and thought He could have found a better way. You can imagine my later surprise when I read John again at some point. I think it was some hours before I could even get up out of my chair. I just kept thinking, but how can this be?! I read the whole New Testament again and then plainly saw it everywhere.
I think if you are a new Christian and read the bible with an open and questing mind it would become clear but sadly many people do not get to discover for themselves but are taught wrongly by their leaders and elders which is a shame.
it is unlawful to reject a doctrine reveled by Christ and taught by holy mother church!
The divinity of Christ and the trinity are Christian doctrine!
to reject them is to reject the Christian faith is to reject Christ as scripture says!
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Well, it’s the nature of the leaven of men to…hold us back and keep us weak and quench Gods Spirit in us. It’s how we know it’s the design and influence of someone other than men.
I think there is some misunderstanding about "faith alone" (sola fide). It is not that we are "saved by faith alone," but rather that we are justified ~ declared righteous, imputed with the righteousness of Christ ~ by faith alone. Faith is defined for us in Hebrews 11:1 as...
This assurance is given to us, members of His elect, by the Father and worked in us by the Holy Spirit, who convicts. And because we are convicted, we then believe. The righteousness of Christ is credited to us because of the faith we have been given. As Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-9...
This is regeneration. There is no need to be regenerated again and again and again. It is a work of God, and it is once and for all.
Regarding baptism, it is not water baptism by men (or women) in a church or anywhere else that avails salvation, bur rather by the Spirit. Paul says...
Paul’s understanding here of baptism by the Spirit is the act by which the Spirit unites us to Jesus Christ and His body, the church. In other words, it’s conversion, it’s becoming a Christian, which, again is a work of God: the will of the Father, accomplished by the work of the Son on the cross, and worked in us individually by the Spirit, who, again, moves upon us each at our own Father-appointed time in such a way that we are brought to faith and united to Jesus. We serve a great and awesome God!
Grace and peace to all of you.
"...the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
This assurance is given to us, members of His elect, by the Father and worked in us by the Holy Spirit, who convicts. And because we are convicted, we then believe. The righteousness of Christ is credited to us because of the faith we have been given. As Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-9...
"...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus... For by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
This is regeneration. There is no need to be regenerated again and again and again. It is a work of God, and it is once and for all.
Regarding baptism, it is not water baptism by men (or women) in a church or anywhere else that avails salvation, bur rather by the Spirit. Paul says...
"Just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body ~ Jews or Greeks, slaves or free ~ and all were made to drink of one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:12–13)
Paul’s understanding here of baptism by the Spirit is the act by which the Spirit unites us to Jesus Christ and His body, the church. In other words, it’s conversion, it’s becoming a Christian, which, again is a work of God: the will of the Father, accomplished by the work of the Son on the cross, and worked in us individually by the Spirit, who, again, moves upon us each at our own Father-appointed time in such a way that we are brought to faith and united to Jesus. We serve a great and awesome God!
Grace and peace to all of you.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
John 8:24 and John 8:58 Jesus says otherwise as does Paul in Romans 10.
Joel 2:32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
Here we see Paul quote this OT passage about YHWH and apply it to Jesus who is the one and only Lord according to the N.T.
Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
So a person must confess Jesus is YHWH(Lord) to be saved. Confess means to agree with so the person confessing Jesus is Lord is in agreement that He is YHWH. Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord ( YHWH) will be saved.
hope this helps !!!
I disagree with your post if your main premise says there is not a point in time when the Spirit of God and his Son entered a person's heart/spirit as a permanent seal, change in state of human spirit. There's no 'one shot deal' as if you miss your target you start again, because you are not the elephant in the room at the time - God is the mover and shaker. That one shot deal mentality is human reasoning and non-scriptural. When God moves someone to salvation it's s sure thing. And the decision we make at a specific point in time is to agree and accept that God is providing us his gift, a bridging faith to show or expose the fragility of our heart and our true desperate need for a savior. Our heart seeks restoration and forgiveness. We make this decision willingly as if our life depends upon it.
This is the quintessential hallmark of human rebirth, the spirit infusion of the new Spirit as some point in time as a seal in the heart of a reborn person. And yes, the journey then begins as a process of holiness and sanctification on the narrow path home until death.
And so 'being saved' is accurate after the initial rebirth stage of salvation. And all the truly reborn never completely lose faith, they always keep the faith because they have Yahshua's spirit, the ace card. The good shepherd will never abandon his sheep. Can get low in the 'faith' tank at times, although they will never be 'out.' And only another being saved person knows these words as being true.
And then folks will even complicate things even further by adding in 'willful' sin into mix with faith/belief and not being saved, or lost and need to attempt to reacquire...more dribble. I would wager those that usually focus on these ideas are not reborn, and are still in a daze or a state of spiritual fog.
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It's quite the other way around. We will not accept Him as our Lord unless we are born again of the Spirit. It's a matter of the heart.
Right, but at the point of being born of the Spirit, our hearts are changed from stone to flesh. As God says:
"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." (Ezekiel 36:26-27)
And Paul:
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)
This is why Paul says:
"Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:14-18)
Grace and peace to you.
first you must believe then baptism to be born again
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Since you seem to actually like being in bondage, I’ve never had any clue how to talk with you, which is why I so rarely do. I read a lot of your posts but there’s just this big blank in my head as to how to speak with you and possibly no actual desire to do so either.
Did you offer up all the required daily animal sacrifices today? Assuming you didn't, why not? Is Leviticus not important?
But if you do happen to offer the daily animal sacrifices, then you might actually pay the invoice addressed to your next door neighbor just because you happen to see it on his kitchen table.
What did I say that makes you think I think some parts of the Bible are more important than others? I already pointed out Peter said we can learn from the revelation God gave to Israel, but it is still not addressed to us. From reading what God wrote to Israel, I learned that Israel made daily animal sacrifices, but I also know that Jesus was the true and final sacrifice, and I know that because of the letters God wrote to the church. He told Israel one thing and the church an entirely different thing. If you don't see that I'm afraid I'm going to have to conclude you are just being plain stubborn. I know it's not your intelligence level. You seem pretty smart and discerning to me.
Check out how many times God said something to the effect of, "speak to the children of Israel." Sorry, but I'm not descended from Isaac, so God wasn't talking to me. That's why I don't observe any of the ordained feasts God gave Israel, nor the daily animal sacrifices. You can read it in the scriptures that God told Moses to, "speak to the children of Israel" when He outlined the feasts and sacrifices.
1Cor 10:32,
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
A jew is not a Gentile, nor is he the church of God. A Gentile is not a Jew, nor is a Gentile the church of God. The Church of God is not a Jew, nor is the Church of God a Gentile. We must keep them straight. God often says one thing to one people at one time and another thing altogether to another people in a different time.
I can't imagine how confusing the scriptures must be to anyone who fails to discern the people to whom God wrote and when He wrote to them. I believe that is a major reason so many consider the Bible a mixed up jumble of seemingly unrelated people, places, wild stories, and events. They just end up believing whatever they hear from the pulpit on Sunday morning while having no idea that they ought to be like the noble Bereans and verify if what they hear is true or not. That is precisely why think so many believe that there is a God the Father, a God the Son, and a God the Holy Ghost, and yet there are not three Gods, but one God. Of the three monikers, the only one actually found in the scriptures is God the Father (1 Cor 8:6, et. al.). But way to many people are not taught how to read the scriptures. It's pretty basic that the student of God's Words understands the different people and different times to whom and when God speaks to them.
Lev 20:24,
But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.
Israel are the people descended from Isaac, a very distinct group. Gentiles are those who did not belong to that group. A Gentile could convert, but that's another story and doesn't negate 1 Cor 10:32.
The church of God is composed of both Jews and Gentiles.
Eph 2:11-16,
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The Church of God is a new creation composed of both Jew and Gentile.13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
It is clear. Over and over in John 14 we see Jesus talking about his Father. A son and a father are two people in anyone's book.
Verse 23, talking about himself and his Father, said, "We will come unto him..."
"We: The plural nominative case of the pronoun of the first
person; the word with which a person in speaking or writing
denotes a number or company of which he is one, as the
subject of an action expressed by a verb." ~ The Collaborative International Dictionary of English ~
"We" means at least two people.person; the word with which a person in speaking or writing
denotes a number or company of which he is one, as the
subject of an action expressed by a verb." ~ The Collaborative International Dictionary of English ~
Perhaps you see the trinity in John 14 because we see Jesus, Yahweh, and the comforter spoken about. So what? Daniel 3 talks about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Are they also somehow one person?
Verse 12 tells us we will do greater works than Jesus. While I have observed many miracles and new births (the "greater works" which were not available when Jesus spoke these words), I've yet to see anyone create another heaven and earth, let alone something even greater than that. If we supposedly can do greater works than God, why don't we see something better than what He did?
John is a staple of Trinitarians. Well, most of it anyway. They do have to ignore a few verses. For example:
John 17:3,
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
No comment required when read as written
John 14:28,Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
One part of God is greater than another part? That's not in accord with the Athenasian Creed. Not even close! But the real kicker is that Trinitarians don't think John even knew what he was writing about.
John 20:31,
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Apparently, had John understood the truth, he would have said, "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
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the same John who said, and He WAS God.
New International Version
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
Exactly. John also said, "the word was with God."
A couple of points here;
1) Verse one talks about the "logos" ("word" in English). It is not good to change that word to "Jesus." Better to see what the logos actually is. Unlike the recent past when anything trinity was suppressed, it is incredible easy to do one's own research today, thanks to the internet. There is no shortage of scholarly work that covers John 1 that shows it in a decidedly not-trinitarian way.
As a long time former trinitarian, I understand the utter revulsion at the very thought of even reading such "heretical" material. Nonetheless, the information is there for anyone who wants to verify Orthodox doctrine, to see if it is true or not, ala the noble Bereans.
2) Virtually all trinitarian scholars understand that, as written in most Bible translations, there is a glaring contradiction in John 1:1, namely, how can something be "with" something else and "be" that something else at the same time? Again, a ton of material on that very idea can be found on the internet.
Bottom line, there is more to John 1 than Christians are usually taught by the orthodox church. John used the word "logos" to refute how the Greeks thought of the logos. With Greek understanding of logos, there is nothing at all amiss about saying something like, "There is a God the Father, There is a God the Son, and there is a God the Holy Ghost, but there are not three Gods but One God." (Athenasian Creed). John actually went to great lengths to dismiss such a thing as totally meaningless. Such an idea is the opposite of logos (logic). It is mythos (a myth). John revealed the true logos, and it's not Jesus. It's certainly related to Jesus, but it's not actually him. Just look up "word" in Strong's concordance. There you will see it deals with what is in someone's mind. It is God's plan of redemption which He had in mind from the beginning. Have you ever heard that in your church?
Regarding that word "with;" it is the Greek word "pros" and out of more than 700 usages in the Bible it is translated as "with" only 17 times and those are questionable. The normal meaning of "pros" is "with reference to" or "points to" or "towards." Look it up. Don't just buy what I say. Suffice it to say, by translating "pros" as it is normally used, the aforementioned contradiction vanishes.
John stated his purpose in John 20:31.
John 20:31,
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
I believe Jesus is the Christ, the anointed Messiah. A also believe he is the son of God. What John did not say, and what I do not believe, is that Jesus is God.
Regarding scholars, I know the churches have besmirched scholarship to a large degree. But the main difference between scholars and many Christians is that a scholar actually digs into the scriptures instead of simply parroting what they hear from the pulpits on Sunday morning. I suppose the reason scholars are poo-pooed by the church is that they may become a threat to the traditional church teachings.
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Oh boy, not again…
I cannot hear another days long explanation of all the mistranslations in every verse that goes against your indoctrination. First satan wanted to kill Jesus and now we are to suppose he wants to elevate Jesus far above where He should be elevated to.
I can’t sit through it again. I will just barf if I have to.
And stop insisting that if someone has received the revelation that Jesus is God they must be a trinitarian because I assure you, it’s not always so.
I cannot hear another days long explanation of all the mistranslations in every verse that goes against your indoctrination. First satan wanted to kill Jesus and now we are to suppose he wants to elevate Jesus far above where He should be elevated to.
I can’t sit through it again. I will just barf if I have to.
And stop insisting that if someone has received the revelation that Jesus is God they must be a trinitarian because I assure you, it’s not always so.
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This is a tactic of the world and of satan, to tear down your adversary so when the time comes, they will vote for you and follow you!
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