Trinity Belief and Born Again?

[PinSeeker]

It is said that one must believe in the trinity to get born again.

I would say it's quite the other way around... :)

Should the church really build a doctrine on a man made creed along with the scriptures?

No, but again, the other way around. It's quite okay, and even commendable, that the church build doctrines and creeds based in the Scriptures ~ although the doctrines and creeds are not then they themselves Scriptures but merely summarizations in bite-sized chunks of Scriptures... the full counsel of God). I would think you agree with this.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Rich R]

is Paul you’re savior?

mk 16:16

so all you need is faith?
We’re you save the first moment you believed?

Eph 2:8,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
​

Maybe I misunderstand you, but I don't see anything in this verse that indicates we are saved by something more than grace through faith.

Also, it is important to realize tht Mark 16:16 was spoken by Jesus to Israel BEFORE his death, resurrection, ascension, and most importantly, before the day of Pentecost. Later Jesus indicated that something would change after he ascended.

Luke 24:49,

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
​

What is it to be endued with power from on high? He answered that the very day he ascended.

Acts 1:4-5,

4 And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
​

I'm not sure how this could say anything other than baptism with holy spirit replaced water baptism. That little word "but" in verse 5 has a lot of meaning. It sets water in contrast to holy spirit. Whereas holy spirit it said to endue the recipient with power from on high, the scriptures never equate water with power. Water is symbolic and never made anything truly clean as does holy spirit.

Nothing wrong with water baptism, but it's not the same as holy spirit baptism for sure.

 

[PinSeeker]

By scripture, we see there is more to it all than the doctrines of men propose. For instance, there is an outer darkness. They say this outer darkness is the lake of fire, but it does not read so that this assumption should be automatically made. Fire gives off light and darkness is no light. How is the assumption made that the outer darkness is the lake of fire? And we are told that, in the end, hell and it’s contents are thrown into the lake of fire but it never says outer darkness is thrown into the lake of fire. So at first glance, it appears that the outer darkness could possibly be a place where it’s human inhabitants live forever. Yet no human can live forever UNLESS they receive Gods Spirit. So it begins to look a bit terrifying and annihilation in the lake of fire begins to seem more merciful than outer darkness. At least the wailing and gnashing of teeth would end there for an uneternal human who never received the Spirit of God. It’s the second death for a human. Not sure about satan though, he appears to somehow be an eternal being. I don’t think the lake of fire would destroy him but…not sure.

I am hoping the outer darkness might actually be a purgatorial type place that lasts only for the one thousand years, but I don’t know for sure. There is the parable of the one who had his debt forgiven but then did not forgive someone else’s debt, so his own debt was reinstated. It ends by saying he will be thrown into prison and will not come out until he has paid the last cent. I think that prison could be the outer darkness. A place where stripes are received to varying degrees, more stripes for some and less stripes for some, as scripture says:
But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

In a great house there are both vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. So for us, a question comes up - saved/live eternally, yes, BUT - saved to WHAT? Honor? Or dishonor? Saved/live eternally with treasure stored up in heaven or saved/live eternally as if through fire, a pauper?

To the discussion about eternity, Jesus says:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on his glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will place the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed Me, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? And when did we see You a stranger and welcome You, or naked and clothe You? And when did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.’"

“Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
[Luke 25:31-46]

And:

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
[John 5:28-29]

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Rich R]

I would say it's quite the other way around... :)


No, but again, the other way around. It's quite okay, and even commendable, that the church build doctrines and creeds based in the Scriptures.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

I would agree with this so far as the church doctrines agree with the scriptures. I just don't think they always do as I aver in the OP where I'm saying there is nothing in the scriptures that says we must believe in the trinity to be saved, which is a clear requirement according to the Athenasian Creed. I suppose one could say the Creed didn't overtly contradict anything in the scriptures by saying that (given it says nothing about belief in the trinity as a requirement for anything), but, at best, it is an addition to the scriptures.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

is Paul you’re savior?

mk 16:16

so all you need is faith?
We’re you save the first moment you believed?

Mark 16:16 says that a person must believe, which is what saves them. it is only after they are saved, that they need to get baptised in water.

You cannot escape the fact, that the major Apostle chosen by God Himself, to go to the Gentile world, Paul, did not consider water baptism as part of a sinners salvation.

This is what the Bible says, and you are free to igore God's Word, or accept and follow it.

The Bible is also clear, that forgiveness of our sins is ONLY in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, nothing added! Hebrews 9:22, "without shedding of blood is no remission". NO mention of any water!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Good points. Technically, whether or not we judge is really not the issue. It's how we are to judge that matters.

John 7:24,

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
​

Of course this verse, like all verses, has a context which must be considered. In John it is talking about Jesus healing on the Sabbath. That was a big problem for the Pharisees. They simply judged by what they saw without regard to Jesus' heart and purpose in healing on the Sabbath. The fact he told them to judge righteously indicates they can judge. They just have to do it the right way.

However, as you said, when it comes to judging who is righteous, i.e., who will inhabit the new earth to come, and who doesn't will be Jesus' call, not ours. That's another matter altogether than judging things in this present life.

ah…it’s a bit more complex than meets our human eyes, right? And I haven’t officially said hello to you brother but have enjoyed reading your posts. So hello!
Righteous judgement as concerns humans is a can of worms! Because we see some things others can’t see.
Like, we see, by the grace of God, what is in us. When we are able to bear it, He shows us. It’s a moment of horror at first. I’m a believer, I’ve eaten meals with my Lord, I have great joy, and yet I’ve just seen I’m every bit as bad as an unbeliever as to what ugly things roil around inside me. I get mad at others for doing outwardly what I do too, but inwardly. They shoot and kill someone? I do it in my heart where it’s hidden from men. We must see what an abject mess we are. He saves us WHILE we are. Then begins our tearing down so He can raise us up.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm not sure how this could say anything other than baptism with holy spirit replaced water baptism.

Water baptism is a sacrament given to us by God and thus is an outward sign and seal of the covenant that we administer. It is not what saves. Baptism by the Holy Spirit is inward, and synonymous with being cleansed by and given new life in the Holy Spirit. Only God Himself can "sprinkle clean water on us, cleanse us from all our uncleannesses and idols, give us a new heart, put within us a new spirit, remove the heart of stone from our flesh and give us a heart of flesh, put His Spirit with us and cause us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Water is symbolic and never made anything truly clean as does holy spirit.

Absolutely agreed. Only the Holy Spirit Himself can do this. Only God can open the eyes of the blind, unstop the ears of the deaf, enable the lame to leap like a deer and the mute tongue to sing for joy (Isaiah 35:5-6)

Nothing wrong with water baptism, but it's not the same as holy spirit baptism for sure.

Yes, baptism by the Holy Spirit by fire. Absolutely agreed.

Grace and peace!

 

[Rich R]

To the discussion about eternity, Jesus says:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on his glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will place the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed Me, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? And when did we see You a stranger and welcome You, or naked and clothe You? And when did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.’"

“Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
[Luke 25:31-46]

And:

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
[John 5:28-29]

Grace and peace to all.

All good verses. However they were said to Israel (Matt 15:24) BEFORE Jesus died, resurrected, ascended, and sent the gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. A lot changed with those events (major understatement :)). Whereas the law made nothing perfect, the new creation God put in our hearts made us as righteous as God Himself. It's all there in Ephesians which was written AFTER Pentecost when God made a new creation form both Jew and Gentile. The Gospels were addressed to the Jews before Pentecost. Paul wrote to the church after Pentecost. Different time, different people. It makes a difference.

We must be careful about how we read other people's mail. If I go to my neighbor Bob's house and happen to see an invoice on his coffee table addressed to Bob in the amount of $5,000 I'm not going to write a check our of my account and send it in. I learned Bod owed $5,000, but it's his responsibility to act on it, not mine.

This is not to say Christians should ignore what God said to Israel before Pentecost. Quite the contrary;

Rom 15:4,

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
​

While we can learn much from the OT (another major understatement), we are held to a completely different standard. We are saved by what Jesus did. They were saved (or not) by what they themselves did. Their judgment is future. We have already passed judgment and found to be righteous. Israel is waiting for judgment as outlined in Revelation. We are just waiting for Jesus to come in the air and gather us together as outlined in Thessalonians.

 

[Rich R]

ah…it’s a bit more complex than meets our human eyes, right? And I haven’t officially said hello to you brother but have enjoyed reading your posts. So hello!
Righteous judgement as concerns humans is a can of worms! Because we see some things others can’t see.
Like, we see, by the grace of God, what is in us. When we are able to bear it, He shows us. It’s a moment of horror at first. I’m a believer, I’ve eaten meals with my Lord, I have great joy, and yet I’ve just seen I’m every bit as bad as an unbeliever as to what ugly things roil around inside me. I get mad at others for doing outwardly what I do too, but inwardly. They shoot and kill someone? I do it in my heart where it’s hidden from men. We must see what an abject mess we are. He saves us WHILE we are. Then begins our tearing down so He can raise us up.

And hello to you! :)

I think you just gave a good summary of Romans 7. John also has something to say along these lines:

1 John 1:8-9,

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
​

The amazing thing about this is that I don't see any limit. We can sin once or a million times and so long as we confess it, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. The thing I really like about verse 9 is that is says God is "just" in doing so. How many would consider it just to forgive the murderer of a loved one. A few I suppose, but most probably not. Well, they killed Jesus whom God certainly loved, and Jesus, who always spoke what the Father wanted him to speak, forgave them.

Far from a license to sin, this kind of grace does nothing but make me love God more and more. I just naturally want to do His will. I see no need for resolutions, promises, or directives to do so. It's a beautiful way to live. It's so unlike man's ways. What a privilege we have to be so loved by the creator of the universe!

 

[Rich R]

Water baptism is a sacrament given to us by God and thus is an outward sign and seal of the covenant that we administer. It is not what saves. Baptism by the Holy Spirit is inward, and synonymous with being cleansed by and given new life in the Holy Spirit. Only God Himself can "sprinkle clean water on us, cleanse us from all our uncleannesses and idols, give us a new heart, put within us a new spirit, remove the heart of stone from our flesh and give us a heart of flesh, put His Spirit with us and cause us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

I love it! Thanks for the reminder brother. :)

 

[Earburner]

members of Christ and his church thru faith and baptism
But that’s justification not salvation

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Correct, but do not forget that for one who HAS received Christ, by being Born Again of His Spirit, if any shall wilfully fall away from faith, due to unbelief, then that would be the act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, of which there is never forgiveness again.

Heb.3 Verses 12 to 14[12] Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence [of belief and hope] stedfast unto the end;

 

[PinSeeker]

I would agree with this so far as the church doctrines agree with the scriptures.

Sure.

I just don't think they always do...

Man is certainly fallible.

...there is nothing in the scriptures that says we must believe in the trinity to be saved...

Not directly, maybe, but it is clear that belief in God and truly confessing God is a work of man only made possible by the working of God, because, it is God Who, because of His mercy and the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. By God's grace we have been saved through faith.

The requirement is belief in the one true God, all three Persons of Him. Whether one acknowledges His triune nature is really optional... but kind of unavoidable... :) ...at least eventually.

I suppose one could say the Creed didn't overtly contradict anything in the scriptures by saying that...

Agree...

(given it says nothing about belief in the trinity as a requirement for anything), but, at best, it is an addition to the scriptures.

Disagree. No trinitarian is adding anything to the Scriptures. What Jesus said of Himself and especially in John 14 is abundantly clear.

 

[PinSeeker]

All good verses. However they were said to Israel (Matt 15:24) BEFORE Jesus died, resurrected, ascended, and sent the gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. A lot changed with those events (major understatement :)). Whereas the law made nothing perfect, the new creation God put in our hearts made us as righteous as God Himself. It's all there in Ephesians which was written AFTER Pentecost when God made a new creation form both Jew and Gentile. The Gospels were addressed to the Jews before Pentecost. Paul wrote to the church after Pentecost. Different time, different people. It makes a difference.

I'm not even sure what your point is, here, Rich. Let's see:

Who do you think Israel is, Rich?

Do you think what Jesus said before He died and was resurrected and ascended is any less important in any way merely because it was while He was still here on earth?

Ah, "whereas the law made nothing perfect..." Hebrews 7:19. So, yes, Rich, continuing there, "a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God." Who ~ Who ~ is this better hope, Rich? Jesus the Guarantor of a better covenant (verse 27). He Himself is the Better Hope.

We must be careful about how we read other people's mail.

LOL! This goes back to the first question above. Who is Israel? I think we can see that very clearly in Hebrews 1:1... "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

While we can learn much from the OT (another major understatement), we are held to a completely different standard.

The Standard was always the same. The Israelites of old were given "training wheels," a guardian, which they knew pointed forward to the Real Thing to come. Now we have no need of this guardian, because we have the Real Thing to look back on ~ and are able look forward to His return, and to live now in this certainty:

"So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." (Galatians 3:24-25)

And no, that's not "somebody else's mail." :)

We are saved by what Jesus did.

Well, yes, we are saved by God through faith, which is all a work of God, which is made possible because of what Jesus did.

Israel is waiting for judgment as outlined in Revelation.

See, this seems to answer incorrectly my very first question to you above (who is Israel). Who is of God's true Israel, Rich? We see it again in Romans 11:25-26 (or should), when Paul says, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

And that's not really "somebody else's mail" either. :)

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[theefaith]

Because if you cannot find it there, then it is the leaven of men or even of demons. Some of it seems to not do such great harm, but some of it grows into a hideous thing that does great harm.

why are men endowed with the office of apostle and the witnesses of Jesus Christ?

 

[Bob Estey]

I never heard any Christian believe any but the Trinity, Father Son and Holy spirit. until I came on this site. But as there are people who are of other persuasions on here i suppose it is inevitable. I will stick to what the bible teaches me and continue to stand on the Rock who is Jesus - God the Son.

Do you believe there are three beings up there ruling the universe, or just one?

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you believe there are three beings up there ruling the universe, or just one?

Yes. :) I mean, hey, Pearl can speak for herself, but... Yes. :)

Grace and peace to you, Bob.

 

[Pearl]

Does one have to believe in the deity of God to be saved? I asked God this question and he showed me that our Salvation does not depend on believing in the deity of Jesus.

How can I be so sure? It’s probably a fact that most non-Christians do not believe Jesus is God. I know I didn’t. But I asked Jesus into my life and was spiritually re-born and saved in that instant. But it was only later I really learned of the Trinity and the deity of Jesus. And I dare say that this is true for most of us. Q.E.D.

 

[Pearl]

Do you believe there are three beings up there ruling the universe, or just one?

One with three equal parts.

 

[Triumph1300]

who is this "Christ"? a "Man", or, as Paul says, "God manifested in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16), and therefore Yahweh. There are many "christs" who are false, and then there is Jesus THE Christ, the God-Man. the Bible is very clear

Yes, but your reply has nothing to do with what I posted.
Why did you post this as a response after you quoted my post?

 

[PinSeeker]

Does one have to believe in the deity of God to be saved?

Well, it certainly is necessary to believe God is Who He says He is... :) But the saving ~ the mercy of God and the changing of one's heart ~ happens before this point.

But still I asked Jesus into my life and was spiritually re-born and saved in that instant.

I would say, Pearl, that like all truly heart-regenerate elect of God, you were spiritually reborn ~ because prior to that you were spiritually dead in your sin ~ and then at some point you asked Jesus into your life, and... He was actually already there. :)

Bless you, sister! Grace and peace to you.