Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Hello @Dave L,

They may have been God fearing men, who acted in accordance with what you have said, but they are still MEN, and fallible. The Word of God is written by inspiration of God, and is therefore to be our yardstick by which we judge the words of man written concerning it, and not the other way around.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taken

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,488
31,647
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The debates were over what the bible says. They didn't add or take away from scripture. They stated clearly what scripture says about God, Christ, Sin, and Christ's humanity. If you study the "ecumenical creeds" you will see all that took place.
So then as certain traditions are held up very high by some, should we hold up these "ecumenical creeds" along side the written scriptures? The scriptures were written by inspiration as I believe, but should I believe these "creeds" also express clearly God's truth? Why? Will not the Comforter teach us all things without considering those "ecumenical creeds"?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taken
D

Dave L

Guest
Hello @Dave L,

They may have been God fearing men, who acted in accordance with what you have said, but they are still MEN, and fallible. The Word of God is written by inspiration of God, and is therefore to be our yardstick by which we judge the words of man written concerning it.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
So is your private interpretation of scripture more accurate by ignoring the teachers God placed in the Church?
 
D

Dave L

Guest
So then as certain traditions are held up very high by some, should we hold up these "ecumenical creeds" along side the written scriptures? The scriptures were written by inspiration as I believe, but should I believe these "creeds" also express clearly God's truth? Why? Will not the Comforter teach us all things without considering those "ecumenical creeds"?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
Are books good if meticulously written and proven accurate through extreme debate?
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,488
31,647
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are books good if meticulously written and proven accurate through extreme debate?
So then you are saying that two or more people debate hard enough and long enough to an extreme they will that way find God's truth? When my older brother was in college he was a debater and very good, winning a lot of debates, but he did not know God at the time. Do you suppose that his debating skills have made a positive difference for him with God?

Jesus is the Truth and no other according to the scriptures. Anyone who possesses any real truth must have something of what Jesus is. No man will obtain that by study alone, no matter how skilled he is or how diligently he studies or how hard he debates. That is not how God works. Something more is required.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
GINOLJC, to all.

JESUS, the Holy Spirit, is the Father diversified in flesh. Scripture,
Isaiah 22:20 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:

Isaiah 22:21 "And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

Isaiah 22:22 "And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

This is a direct reference to the "Son" who is Called “Father”.

Exhibit A. the Name “Eliakim” H471 אֶליָקִים 'Elyaqiym (el-yaw-keem') n/p.
1. (meaning) God of raising.
2. Eljakim, the name of four Israelites.
[from H410 and H6965]
KJV: Eliakim.

FROM: H410 אֵל 'el (ale) n-m.
1. firm strength, sturdiness.
2. (figuratively) a firm grip (of the hand).
3. (as adjective) sturdy (as indomitable, supreme durability).
4. (an abbreviated spelling, but especially) God, as the Superior or Indomitable Strength (but used also of any deity).
5. (hence) a god (as created or imagined).
{often used as a suffix in names, “-el”}
[shortened from H352]
KJV: God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong.

So the Name “Eliakim” give us a part of the meaning, but when the word is ROOTED out….. God.

knowing this, hold the name in mind.

Exhibit B. he is the Governor, “and I will commit thy government into his hand”. this from Isaiah 9:6 “and the government shall be upon his shoulder”. for the only Governor is God. Psalms 22:28 "For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations”.

So clearly we see the Christ as God who is the Governor. And this is supported and confirmed at Christ birth, Matthew 2:6 "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel”. which was foretold by the prophet Micah 5:2

Exhibit C. now, the other important part of the name, “Eliakim”, as used here. It mean “God rising”, and this is applicable to what the Unitarians state about the title “Everlasting Father”, as the “Son” WILL BE ….. The Everlasting Father. I must concur. God Rising is a good metaphor for this title of everlasting Father to come. For after his Resurrection….. “RISING”, he is Glorified with the Glory he had “BEFOR” the world was, supportive scripture, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.

“before the world was?”, YES, hence the title “EVERLASTING” … “FATHER.” for while in flesh with blood, he’s the Son. But Glorified with, with, with, the Spirit he’s the Father. how? listen,
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". the Father is "Spirit". Boy Oh boy the bible is so TRUE, and so easy to understand.

So John chapter 17 proves that the Son GLORIFIED in the Father, is the Father, the Everlasting Father. Yes, the ONLY one who has IMMORALITY.


Exhibit C. Isaiah 22:22 above, open and shut the case on JESUS as Father, … Literally, listen, "And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open”. Supportive scripture,
Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:8 "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name”.

And this is the Lord Jesus .. right…......................... right.

Now, the icicing on the cake. let’s examine how each letter to each church that the Lord Jesus address, ends.
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”.

Hold it, “What the Spirit say to the churches?”. is this not the Lord Jesus speaking to the churches? Yes, he’s the Spirit, who is God, remember John 4:24a “God is a “Spirit”. and is not God the Father? John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”.

And, and, and, that’s that numerical difference that G243 allos express, which is the same sort.

Diversity, Diversity, Diversity, Diversity,

If one cannot see it now, either they are blind, dishonest, or just down right deceived to the truth.


maybe a re-read of this post is in order for edification and understanding.

PICJAG
 
D

Dave L

Guest
So then you are saying that two or more people debate hard enough and long enough to an extreme they will that way find God's truth? When my older brother was in college he was a debater and very good, winning a lot of debates, but he did not know God at the time. Do you suppose that his debating skills have made a positive difference for him with God?

Jesus is the Truth and no other according to the scriptures. Anyone who possesses any real truth must have something of what Jesus is. No man will obtain that by study alone, no matter how skilled he is or how diligently he studies or how hard he debates. That is not how God works. Something more is required.
God reveals the truth. But many believe God revealed the truth to them and it contradicts the "truth" others claim God revealed to them. So they set up challenges to pick each other apart and the truth prevailed by divine providence. God controls all things. You can read any of these and see if you can debunk them. Nobody has for the last nearly two millennia.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,488
31,647
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God reveals the truth. But many believe God revealed the truth to them and it contradicts the "truth" others claim God revealed to them. So they set up challenges to pick each other apart and the truth prevailed by divine providence. God controls all things. You can read any of these and see if you can debunk them. Nobody has for the last nearly two millennia.

If they were wrong someone has indeed debunked them even if it has not been written up in anyone's declaration of victory in a debate manuscript.

The truth, God's Truth, when it is really written [as the scriptures themselves], is written in a person's heart by God. Sometimes a man who has it so written in him is inspired to write down his testimony, but only someone else who has received the same message or understanding from God is able to see and understand it. Remember that Jesus walked alone in the truth, but sometimes there were those given eyes to see and/or ears to hear that understood Him... So it is now.

"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matt 13:12-13
 
D

Dave L

Guest
If they were wrong someone has indeed debunked them even if it has not been written up in anyone's declaration of victory in a debate manuscript.

The truth, God's Truth, when it is really written [as the scriptures themselves], is written in a person's heart by God. Sometimes a man who has it so written in him is inspired to write down his testimony, but only someone else who has received the same message or understanding from God is able to see and understand it. Remember that Jesus walked alone in the truth, but sometimes there were those given eyes to see and/or ears to hear that understood Him... So it is now.

"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matt 13:12-13
But we do not see them debunked in writing. We see them debunking others in writing.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
We do not "see" them one way or the other, if we are blind to the things of God.
But you don't know what the creeds say. So this tells me you've been trained to oppose them without giving much thought. Yikes if you are ever on a jury.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,488
31,647
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But you don't know what the creeds say. So this tells me you've been trained to oppose them without giving much thought. Yikes if you are ever on a jury.
If I were on a jury of men judging man, I would want to consider man's law and God's law as I considered the evidence presented. Do jurors have to be lawyers?

As to the creeds, I have read them. I take them as Abraham Lincoln did... or as I understand that he did as per Mario M Cuomo in "Why Lincoln Matters Today More Than Ever"

[from Francis B. Carpenter, "Six Months at the White House with Abraham Lincoln" (Hurd and Houghton, 1866)]

Lincoln told Harry C Deming, a congressman from Connecticut why he had never joined any church and why his fundamental spiritual disposition was profound:

"I have never united myself to any church, because i have found difficulty in giving my assent, without mental reservation, to the long, complicated statements of Christian doctrine which characterize their Articles of Belief and Confessions of Faith. When any church will inscribe over its altar, as its sole qualification for membership...the Savior's condensed statement of both Law and Gospel, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbor as thyself," that church will I join with all my heart and all my soul"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Heart2Soul
D

Dave L

Guest
If I were on a jury of men judging man, I would want to consider man's law and God's law as I considered the evidence presented. Do jurors have to be lawyers?

As to the creeds, I have read them. I take them as Abraham Lincoln did... or as I understand that he did as per Mario M Cuomo in "Why Lincoln Matters Today More Than Ever"

[from Francis B. Carpenter, "Six Months at the White House with Abraham Lincoln" (Hurd and Houghton, 1866)]

Lincoln told Harry C Deming, a congressman from Connecticut why he had never joined any church and why his fundamental spiritual disposition was profound:

"I have never united myself to any church, because i have found difficulty in giving my assent, without mental reservation, to the long, complicated statements of Christian doctrine which characterize their Articles of Belief and Confessions of Faith. When any church will inscribe over its altar, as its sole qualification for membership...the Savior's condensed statement of both Law and Gospel, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbor as thyself," that church will I join with all my heart and all my soul"
If you will not judge the creeds fairly, condemning them without reading them. And then embrace your church (former church) dogma, it shows extreme bias and prejudice toward the teachers God placed in the church.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,488
31,647
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you will not judge the creeds fairly, condemning them without reading them. And then embrace your church (former church) dogma, it shows extreme bias and prejudice toward the teachers God placed in the church.
Did you not read where I said that I had read them? But... that is NOT where we receive truth anyway. Solomon wrote what we would receive through a whole lot of reading and study as a chosen means of approach:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Yet you would have me or anyone follow the ways of the flesh to supposedly encounter truth! It does NOT work that way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You redefine the trinity according to your heretical views, and then insist you believe it. But your view of the trinity is as false as the idol you claim to worship in Christ's name.

I would simply refer you to my opening statement in post #1. Trinity II

Just stating a fact that Christianity is the only religion that is trinitarian in the worship of God. This is the result of several debates in the early church where the final outcomes proved beyond challenge that (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

If it can be shown from scripture that (8) The Son is the Holy Spirit, (being the 2nd and 3rd Persons of the Trinity,) (9) although the Son is primarily come in the flesh; and (10) The Holy Spirit is the Father; then we can conclude that the debates were not complete in the day that they were accomplished. They did not utilize access to all of the information. They did not examine every scripture on the subject in the day that they were debated.

post #3 (Trinity II)

Did you not read where I said that I had read them?

@Dave L has the tendency to ignore things like that so that he can make blanket condemning statements to people over things that he doesn't understand.
 
Last edited:

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
If it can be shown from scripture that (8) The Son is the Holy Spirit, (being the 2nd and 3rd Persons of the Trinity,) (9) although the Son is primarily come in the flesh; and (10) The Holy Spirit is the Father; then we can conclude that the debates were not complete in the day that they were accomplished.
Looks like you are cooking up your own theology. None of the above can be shown from Scripture, so I wonder who is feeding you this nonsense.

The Father is the Father
The Son is the Son
The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit

But they are one God, the triune Godhead, consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Period.

As to *the Son is primarily come in the flesh*, that is clearly a false statement. God the Word was incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth (see John 1), but before He took human form He was already the eternally existent the Son of God (see Micah 5). And now He is seated at the right hand of the Father in His resurrected and glorified body.

As to the debates being incomplete, that too is false, since a great deal of time and effort went into gaining a proper understanding of the Trinity. And the Athanasian Creed is devoted to this subject.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
I would simply refer you to my opening statement in post #1. Trinity II



If it can be shown from scripture that (8) The Son is the Holy Spirit, (being the 2nd and 3rd Persons of the Trinity,) (9) although the Son is primarily come in the flesh; and (10) The Holy Spirit is the Father; then we can conclude that the debates were not complete in the day that they were accomplished. They did not utilize access to all of the information. They did not examine every scripture on the subject in the day that they were debated.

post #3 (Trinity II)



@Dave L has the tendency to ignore things like that so that he can make blanket condemning statements to people over things that he doesn't understand.
You have not read the historic creeds. And only believe what you've been trained by false teachers to believe. Did you know it was your false belief about God that rallied the early church to define God according to the scriptures. And they solidly refuted your position at that time, called Sabellianism and modalistic monarchianism.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Did you not read where I said that I had read them? But... that is NOT where we receive truth anyway. Solomon wrote what we would receive through a whole lot of reading and study as a chosen means of approach:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Yet you would have me or anyone follow the ways of the flesh to supposedly encounter truth! It does NOT work that way.
Why are you more like Islam in your idea about God than Christianity?
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,597
13,000
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Just stating a fact that Christianity is the only religion that is trinitarian in the worship of God.

What about Messianic Jews?

This is the result of several debates in the early church where the final outcomes proved beyond challenge that (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God.

Father God ~
Son God ~
Holy Spirit God ~

Pss 33:
[6] By the word (SON) of the LORD (FATHER) were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (SPIRIT) of his mouth.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit....ONE God.

Tri - Three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Unity - One

Trinity - Lord God Almighty


(5) The Father is not the Son.
(6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit.
(7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

And WHO exactly of WHAT exactly early Church "decided" and supposedly "proved"
not, not, not ?

They also proved in the final outcome in the debates, Jesus Christ is God "as far as his Spirit," with a "fully human nature" and a fully divine nature. If you couple this to the trinity doctrine, Jesus is the triune God, speaking in the second person of the trinity as the Son of God. But at times he spoke through his "human limitations" as the Son of man.[/QUOTE]

"Jesus Christ is God" as far as his Spirit"

THAT ^^ statement JUST contradicted --->

"The Son is NOT the Holy Spirit"

"Jesus is the triune God"

THAT ^^ statement JUST contradicted --->

"Jesus Christ...with " a fully human nature"

Father, Son, Holy Spirit....ONE God.

Tri - Three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Unity - One

Trinity - Lord God Almighty

YES, YES, YES.

(5) The Father is not the Son.
(6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit.
(7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

NO, NO, NO.

Glory to thee Lord God Almighty,
Taken
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,597
13,000
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why are you more like Islam in your idea about God than Christianity?

Did you know you are teaching to follow CREEDS before CHRIST ?

Did you know you comparing a persons BELIEF to Follow CHRIST "over" your following of a "CREED", has nothing to do with "ISLAM" ?

Did you know accusing a person to being a follower of "ISLAM", because they do not follow a "CREED" as you do, is simply you making a false "accusation" in an ATTEMPT to DEFLECT from YOUR own "lack" of defense of following a "CREED" over "CHRIST" ?
(It is called "trickery", also known as, a "crafty tool" that is "favored" and "perpetuated" by Satan, WHO stands AGAINST CHRIST.)

If you CHOOSE to "stand with a CREED", that "some unidentifed early Church stood with" written by "some unidentified" men...
THAT is YOUR CHOICE.

And other men have the SAME FREEWILL Choices to elect to STAND with the WORD OF GOD as "THEIR" Choice....
It has NOThING WHATSOEVER to do with the ISLAMIC Reliegion...<--->

Try to stay on point without the deflections and "false allegations".

Glory to God,
Taken
 
Last edited: