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Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.
    first, no, not just because he's a Spirit, (which he is), but we believe this because God said so in his word. Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star". this word "Offspring" is the Greek word,
    G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
    1. kin.
    {abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
    [from G1096]
    KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock

    understand this definition? 1. kin, here is where, as you said, God put some skin on ... as a man, the KINSman Redeemer. but Revelation 22:16 says he's also the ROOT, meaning without skin, (Spirit), and he's Holy, ... Holy Spirit ... (smile). see it it now. the Spirit, God, the Holy Spirit, the ROOT without skin in heaven is running the universe, while at the same time, as John 3:13 states, the Holy Spirit as the Offspring, WITH skin on earth talking to Nicodemus. see it now. this is all done by God "sharing himself" in flesh in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state. and this sharing of ONEself is accomplish by G243 allos, which is the NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE of of the same SORT, or of ONEself. supportive scripture, Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man". if he was MADE lower than, then he had to be higher than the angels before. for he never stop being God, the Spirit with all his attributes as Spirit, (without skin). only that when he shared himself in the G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state, (with skin), as the diversity of HIMself, or as the Son without his attributes or abilities. he's the same PERSON only now shared in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state as a man, per (Phil2:6-8). understand now?

    so yes, as the Offspring, which means "diversity", hence the term we use "diversified Oneness". because it was God, his OWNself who came in flesh as the equal "share" of his OWNself. listen, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. see it now? his OWN, OWN, OWN ARM, meaning it's him in skin. it don't get any plainer that that, excuse my english.

    I believe we answered both of your questions at the time.

    PICJAG.
     
  2. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    @GodsGrace ..here's a commentary of John 3:13 I did before. I started at verse 11 and ended with verse 15 to capture the context.

    It is a little meaty and you might want to take a bit of time to digest it...maybe days or weeks...?

    Jesus, the son of man was born of heaven by his Father and he was in heaven figuratively by his Father’s Spirit dwelling within him since his conception and whilst on earth. And he literally went to heaven where his Father lives, after is ascension. The symbology that Moses used for salvation was the desert serpent, raised high on a pole as Jesus on the cross, resurrected from the dead, to eternal life, in heaven.

    See also John 6:33 as one example of the use of the idiom ,‘…that which comes down out of heaven…’ used here in verse 13 ‘…he that descended from heaven..’ as the sole source of heavenly things and who provides them to his people. Whether it is physical food or spiritual food or in the birth of his last Adam, in the birth of his Son. They all came down from heaven!

    Verse 13 is a figurative description of Jesus’ view of redemption and his Father’s plan of salvation. Whilst on earth, Jesus was in constant contact with his Father; he was actually in his mind and spirit. Therefore, the idiom ‘who is in heaven’ written in Greek, Latin and Syriac manuscripts, reflects this constant contact he had ‘in heaven’ with his Father.

    Similarly, all believers are made to sit or are seated with Christ in heavens or heavenly places today. See Ephesians 2:6. Jesus figuratively ‘ascended to heaven’ whilst on earth with his close fellowship with his Father.

    The context of John 3:13 shows Jesus in conversation with Nicodemus about the secrets of immortality. Jesus is talking about what we ‘know’ (John 3:11). In contrast to Nicodemus’ unfamiliarity with the keys to entering the Kingdom and the necessity of being born again, Jesus says, ‘Truly I tell you, we are testifying to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony’ (John 3:11).

    Jesus doubts Nicodemus’ capacity to receive ‘heavenly things.’ It is these heavenly secrets which Jesus is able to reveal because he ‘has ascended to heaven’ and ‘is in heaven.’

    In Proverbs 30:3 and 4 the words of Agur contain a similar reference to ascension to heaven. The object of such an ‘ascent’ is to gain understanding and divine revelation. ‘Surely I am more stupid than any man. I do not have the understanding of a man. Neither have I learned wisdom. Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy One. Who has ascended to heaven and come down?’

    Similarly, in Deuteronomy 30:12, it asks: ‘Who has gone up to heaven and obtained her (Wisdom) and brought her down from the clouds?’

    In the case of Jesus, the supreme and final messenger and revealer of God’s purposes, a bridge from heaven to earth has been built. The Son has ‘exegeted’ or explained the Father (see John 1:18), in many ways and in his words in scripture. No one but the Son of Man has received such a measure of divine wisdom. At the same time the Son of Man — the Human Being — has descended from heaven, a Jewish expression meaning not that Jesus was alive before his birth, but that he is God’s gift to the world (see James 1:17; 3:15).


    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    are you kidding, Jesus was "BORN" in Heaven, my God he made heaven.

    this is the strong delusion we're speaking of. I'm out outta here on this post.

    PICJAG.
     
  4. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    It's great Apak!
    I'm saving it...it's chock full of information.
    Great job.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    What is the delusion?
     
  6. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Jesus born in heaven.
    PICJAG.
     
  7. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    So you're getting your information from Revelation?


    Jesus is the root, He's the Kinsman redeemer, He's the "Son of David". These are all foreshadows of who Jesus IS. He's much more than all this...He's God. In the Davidic Covenant ...David's SON would be the King of all....these are titles. Jesus is not REALLY the Son of David...He's the Son of God Father.

    You're also stating that the Holy Spirit is an offspring?
    Of who?
    The 2nd person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit ALWAYS existed...they are not the offspring of anyone or any God.

    And no, I don't understand...what do you mean by HE SHARED HIMSELF?
    Highlighted above.

    Yes...God said He Himself with rescue His sheep ( Ezekiel) and so He did by dying on the cross. But it's Jesus that died on the cross, not God Father. There is a distinction between them. They are the same in substance but each has their particular attributes and works to be done.

    So, exactly WHO is it in skin?
     
  8. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was not born.
    He was begotten.
    One in being with the Father...
    of the same substance.

    Did I miss that in the other post?
    Maybe.

    Jesus always was.
    He was always part of the Father...
    the 2nd person of the Trinity.
     
  9. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    that is the delusion, Jesus is GOD, the only person. he's not a second person, he's his OWN share in flesh.
    once more, just think for a second. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".
    Think GG, is your ARM a separate person from you? of course not. now watch who the ARM of the Lord is. Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him".
    understand now GG. the ARM of God is "he"... him God almighty himself. remember, "therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me". he, he, he, came in flesh. do you see it now?

    PICJAG.
     
  10. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I thought I've always seen it.
    Saying that Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity does NOT mean He is less.
    Jesus is God...just like you said.

    I don't quite understand where we separate on this.
    I agree that God will save us with HIS OWN ARM.
    God died on the cross. But God the Son....NOT God the Father. *****
    He came HIMSELF to save us.
    Since the injustice was done to God by Adam's sin....
    God is so mad at humanity that a MAN could not satisfy Him...
    To satisfy God's wrath, took God.

    There is only ONE GOD.
    God is a spirit.
    He's made up of the WORD.....HIS WORD is JESUS. John 1
    He's made up of His breath.....HIS BREATH is the Holy Spirit in a "person" form.

    So we have 3
    GOD FATHER the spirit
    GOD SON the Word....become Jesus
    GOD Holy Spirit the Breath...become Holy Spirit to be our comforter, paraclete

    ****God is 3 distinct persons IN ONE GOD.

    Now what's the difference between that and what you say above...
    because it seems pretty close to me.


    DISCLAIMER: I USED THE PENAL SUBSTITUTION THEORY OF ATONEMENT FOR EXPLANATION PURPOSES...I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH THIS THEORY.
     
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    I find this very confusing language.
    • If 'Jesus is GOD, the only person' what doe that make the Father and the Holy Spirit? Are they inferior to and hold functions under Jesus, the Son?
    • What do you mean by Jesus is 'his OWN share in flesh'? God the Father is spirit. God the Holy Spirit is spirit. Jesus while on earth was the God-man. Now he has ascended He is God in spirit.
    • Where was Jesus before he became flesh?
    Your discussion about Isa 63:5 and 53:2 is confusing to me. l don't know what you are trying to prove by this interaction.

    What is your understanding of the Trinity, stated in simple terms?

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  12. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I kind of doubt @101G can post anything in simple terms!!
    But he's a good guy and I'm sure he'll do his best.

    I also will be on the lookout for his response.
     
  13. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GG, think, if God own ARM saved us then it's God himself who saved us. think about it.

    the only thing God did was "share" himself in flesh. in flesh God title is Son. bingo, that simple.

    PICJAG.
     
  14. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    first thanks for the reply, second, it's not confusing language, maybe to you, because you haven't heard this truth before.
    #1. U asked, "If 'Jesus is GOD, the only person' what doe that make the Father and the Holy Spirit? Are they inferior to and hold functions under Jesus, the Son?".
    This is why you cannot understand my Language. understand JESUS is the Holy Spirit. without Flesh, Spirit, he's Father. with flesh and blood, he's Son. second, Jesus is no God man, he's God that took on flesh and was not a partaker in it. he "TOOK PART" in it. learn what PARTAKE and TOOK PART means. it's not the same.

    #2. U asked, "What do you mean by Jesus is 'his OWN share in flesh'? God the Father is spirit. God the Holy Spirit is spirit. Jesus while on earth was the God-man. Now he has ascended He is God in spirit".
    Again this is why you cannot understanf our Language. Jesus is the Spirit in flesh that was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō'), hence spirit, small case. the SHARE of oneself is G243 allos, a numerical difference of the same sort, this is what Adam and Eve are.

    #3. U asked, "Where was Jesus before he became flesh?"
    Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". God is a "Spirit", John 4:24a. there he is. Jesus is God the Spirit whom you mistakenly calls God right here in Genesis 1:1.

    understand the Name of GOD is "JESUS", who is the Holy Spirit.
    Just reconcile John 1:3 with Isaiah 44:24 and tell us who "Made all things". it's that easy.

    PICJAG.
     
  15. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    That is not what I find supported by Scripture:

    Personhood normally has the attributes of

    intellect, feeling, and will. All three of these characteristics are attributed to all three members of the Trinity in Scripture [which I’ll discuss below]. Essentially, personhood refers to an “I,” a “who,” or a subject. Each “I” in the Trinity possesses (by virtue of its common nature) the power to think, feel, and choose. Personhood itself is its I-ness or who-ness (Geisler 2003:379).​

    4.1 God the Father is a person
    Which biblical evidence verifies the Father’s activities as that of a person (acting as ‘You’ or ‘He’):

    The Father is a person who has attributes of personhood:
    [​IMG]
    Intellect: According to Matt 6:32, ‘For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them’ (NIV);

    [​IMG]
    Emotional attribute to feel: Gen 6:6 (NIV), ‘The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled‘.

    [​IMG]
    The will. The Father has power to choose. See Matt 6:9-10 (NIV), ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven’.

    [​IMG]
    The ability to communicate: Matt 11:25, ‘At that time Jesus said, ‘I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children‘.
    [​IMG]
    Teach: “Jesus answered, ‘My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own'” (John 7:16).

    4.2 Jesus the God-man is a person
    He demonstrates the attributes of personhood as demonstrated in Scripture:

    [​IMG]
    He has the power of intellect according to John 2:25 (NLT), ‘No one needed to tell him about human nature, for he knew what was in each person’s heart’.
    [​IMG]
    He had feelings for people: ‘Jesus wept’ (John 11:35). ‘But as he came closer to Jerusalem and saw the city ahead, he began to weep’ (Luke 19:41). Luke 10:21 exposes another side of Jesus’ emotions:

    ‘At that same time Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and he said, “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way”’ (Luke 10:21).

    You may disagree that joy is a feeling or an emotion. What then is it? This article from God Questions supports what I understand is the biblical view that joy is an emotion: Is there a difference between joy and happiness?
    [​IMG]
    The will of Jesus: In John 6:38 Jesus declared, ‘For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will’. These three verses indicate Jesus had the power of the will:

    Just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep….

    “The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded” (John 10:15, 17-18).
    [​IMG]
    Jesus taught (attribute of a person): ‘Anyone who wants to do the will of God will know whether my teaching is from God or is merely my own.

    As the God-man, Jesus had the characteristics of a physical being – a person: He became tired (John 4:6), got thirsty (John 19:28) and hungry (Matthew 4:2). He developed physical weakness (Matthew 4:11; Luke 23:26). He died (Luke 23:46). He had a real human body after his resurrection (Luke 24:39; John 20:20, 27).

    (continued)

    Oz
     
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  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    (continued)

    4.3 God the Holy Spirit is a person
    Like the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit had attributes of personhood. ‘He’ was not an impersonal ‘it’.
    [​IMG]
    John 14:26 demonstrates the Holy Spirit ‘reminds’ and teaches: ‘But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you’.
    [​IMG]
    Ephesians 4:30 expresses the feelings of the Holy Spirit: ‘And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption’. Also, ‘and so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven’ (Matt 12:31). The Spirit can be insulted: ‘So think how much more punishment people deserve who show their hate for the Son of God—people who show they have no respect for the blood sacrifice that began the new agreement and once made them holy or who insult the Spirit of God’s grace’ (Heb 11:29 ERV).
    [​IMG]
    This is another dimension of the Holy Spirit’s feelings: ‘Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers’ (Acts 9:31).

    1 Corinthians 12:11 demonstrates that the Holy Spirit has a will to dispense the gifts: ‘It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have’ (NLT).
    [​IMG]
    John 16:13 refers to the ‘Spirit of truth’ with the Greek masculine, ekeinos, i.e. ‘He’ and not ‘it’, although pneuma (Spirit) is neuter gender: ‘But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come’ (NIV)

    The Person of the Holy Spirit has the attributes of being a ‘he’ who guides, speaks and hears.
    [​IMG]
    There is more NT evidence that the Spirit ‘searches, knows, speaks, testifies, reveals, convinces, commands, strives, moves, helps, guides, creates, recreates, sanctifies, inspires, intercedes, orders the affairs of the church, and performs miracles (see Gen 6:3; Luke 12:12; John 3:8; 16:7-8; Acts 8:29; Rom 8:26; 1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30; 2 Peter 1:21, etc’ (from my article, How to understand three persons in the Trinity).

    Oz
     
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  17. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    That is not what Scripture teaches. You have made the Father and the Son an 'I am', Jesus and the Spirit an 'I am' and the Spirit and the Father an 'I am'.

    There is a functional hierarchy in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit is not at the top of the triangle. Your view of the Trinity drives your agenda.

    This verse states: ‘You heard me say to you, “I am going away, and I will come to you.” If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28 ESV).

    This verse leads us to a very important dimension of the Trinity:

    [​IMG]
    Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal in the Trinitarian godhead. Each member of the Trinity has an identical essence. By essence I mean nature. Therefore, God has one nature but Scripture confirms there are three distinct persons who are God. All are called God so are co-equal and are eternal, i.e. co-eternal.

    BUT

    [​IMG]
    This does not exclude a purposeful (functional) order in the Trinity. This perfect design or focus can be explained as a ‘functional subordination’ among the persons and not a subordination of being (i.e. ontological subordination). If the being of the Father were superior to the being of the Son who is superior to the Holy Spirit, the three persons in the Godhead could not each be God in nature – which is not the case. For an examination of these details, see my article, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?

    R C Sproul explained this functional subordination (technically labelled in theology by a misleading title, ‘the economic Trinity’):

    What are the individual, personal qualities that belong to the three persons of the Godhead? From all eternity, the Father begets[11] the Son [Heb 1:5-6, 8]; the Son is begotten by the Father [Jn 1:14, 18], and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son [Jn 15:26, Gal 4:6]” (WLC 10).[12] With regard to the economic Trinity, we distinguish among the three persons of the Godhead in terms of their roles in creation and redemption. It is the Father who sends the Son into the world for our redemption. It is the Son who acquires our redemption for us. It is the Spirit who applies that redemption to us. We do not have three gods. We have one God in three persons, and the three persons are distinguished in the economy of redemption in terms of what they do (Sproul 2014).​

    This functional subordination can be summarised:

    ‘The Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers. The Father is the Source, the Son is the Means, and the Holy Spirit is the Effector of salvation—it is He who convicts, convinces, and converts…. [The nature and duration of this subordination] is not just temporal and economical: it is essential and eternal…. Paul wrote:

    After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power…. Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere (1 Cor 15:24, 28 NLT)’ (Geisler 2003:291) [from my article, How to understand three persons in the Trinity]

    From your description here, you are not proclaiming an orthodox Trinitarian teaching.

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    GodsGrace

    The history of this 'Shield of the Trinity' and its development is not known but it turned up in the 13th century. See: 'Shield of the Trinity'.

    Oz
     
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  19. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    GodsGrace,

    This verse states (ESV): 'No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man [footnote, 'Some manuscripts add who is in heaven']
    • 'he who descended from heaven' refers to the pre-existent Son of God and the birth of Jesus at the Incarnation. He was in heaven before he came to earth to reveal 'heavenly things' (John 3:12).
    • 'Who is in heaven' is added in some later MSS. Even if it is genuine, it emphasises the timeless existence of God's Son. It is probably a scribal gloss.
    • 'the Son of man' is genuine in most MSS, indicating the Son came down from heaven (see A T Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, vol 5, John 3:13, p. 49)
    I hope that helps a little.

    Oz
     
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  20. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    Please tell me where in Scripture you get the info that the Holy Spirit had flesh?

    Oz
     
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