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Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I think we need to be careful how we use the words 'self' and 'person'. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are Divine Persons, and gloriously so.
     
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  2. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    You speak of the 'strong delusion' (#1444) and 'that trinity symbol is a part of the delusion' (#1459) that includes those of us who are orthodox Trinitarian in our beliefs. I'm seeing more in your posts that what you claim is not supported by Scripture and you're teaching falsehood. Take this post to which I reply:
    • 'I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter' (John 14:16). Jesus (the God-person) prays to the Father (God-person) that the Father will send another parakletos (Parakletos/Holy Spirit-person) who is an eternal person 'to be with you forever' (ESV). Thus,
    • This shatters your statement that 'God name is JESUS who is Spirit'. God's name is NOT Jesus. Jesus is NOT the Spirit.
    • John 14:18 states, 'I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you' (ESV). The ESV correctly translates the Greek orphanous as 'orphans'. It's an old word meaning 'bereft of parents, and of parents bereft of children. Common in papyri of orphan children' (A T Robertson).
    I found your comment to GodsGrace to be impudent:

    'John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".
    GG, did you not hear? read verse 18 again, how plain can one get'.​

    Bible interpreters down through the centuries have struggled with the mean of 'I will come to you', but you have such 'insight' that you can make this statement to be challenged, 'How plain can one get'.

    It is so ambiguous that scholars with a knowledge of the Greek and biblical interpretation have grappled with what coming Jesus is referring to. It is a futuristic present tense.

    1. Is it the coming at the Parousia (second coming) as is Jn 14:3?
    2. Jesus' resurrection (as in John 20:19, 26);
    3. The coming of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, 25-26)
    Until you've grappled with these 3 possible meanings of 'I will come to you', I will not fall for your claim: 'How plain can one get'.

    More and more I see you pushing your presuppositional agenda about your unorthodox view of the Trinity (and who is influencing you) without doing the hard yards of solid exegesis. Simply quoting verses without sound interpretation will lead to light views of the Godhead or even false teaching.

    1 John 4:1 (ESV) gives this warning to all Bible-believing Christians: 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world'.

    101G, on the basis of Scripture I need to test the spirits behind your interpretation of Scripture. I expect you to do the same for what I've written. With your interaction so far, I've not see the hard work of consistent Bible interpretation done.

    Oz
     
  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    I do wish you would do your homework on the difference between LORD and Lord in the OT. It's not as simple as you try to make it.

    Please show me where the supreme name for God in the OT, YHWH, means God the Father.

    Take a read of, 'LORD and Lord: What’s the Difference?' (Wayne Jackson, Christian Courier)

    Oz
     
  4. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    However, are your writings on this forum 'a Good source on the Godhead'? Or should we go to your uninterpreted KJV?
     
  5. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Well let us educate you. all trinity believer listen up. the Lord Jesus is the holy Spirit, the Comforter.
    "the Lord Jesus return is two fold"

    Foundation Scripture: John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever”.

    Teaching scripture: John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”.

    Revealing Scripture: Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Until now, there have been some puzzling scripture that the majority, if not all, christian in the body of Christ could not definitively explain completely. these key verses are Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27. but the next verse we will print complety for all to see.
    Matthew 16:28" Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”.

    These three verses of scriptures have puzzle a many of Christians for years. that puzzlement is now revealed, and put in place. here was the dilemma of theses verses are. a. if the Lord Jesus have not returned in power, even today, (because many are still waiting for his return). then there are some very, very old people walking around today. Well that idea is not biblical, because no where in the bible is it written after the Lord Jesus spoke theses word is it recorded that any natural man with blood lived at least 2,000 years after these saying. so this nullifies anyone still walking around as a human over 2,000 years old. even per-flood after the fall of Adan in sin no one made it to a thousand. so again that theory out.

    The second option, b. our Lord did return as he said he would, in his Kingdom, and in POWER before some of them standing, and in that generation tasted natural death. not spiritual death, but natural death. . knowing that our Lord, JESUS, who is God, cannot lie, HE MUST HAVE RETURN BEFORE SOME STANDING AT THAT TIME DIED. so I must accept his words as truth, and search his word out for the revelation. in doing so, we now have the revealing answer?. option a is out, that only leaves option b. option b holds the true answer, which we will revealed here. YES, he did return, and here’s that revelation.

    Lets carefully, and fully explain this two fold return. what do we mean by the two fold?, his return is in two parts. the first of his two fold return is in Spirit, and this return happen on the day of Pentecost. this first of his two fold return happen before some of them standing there died. (so that answered those three verses above). this return was in power, meaning in Spirit, (the Holy Spirit). this is the Lord Jesus “first” of his two fold return, and yes the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, for he is the truth, the light and the way. supportive scripture, John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. this was directed to his disciples, and he came to them. he came in Spirit. so how do we know this?. John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (that's the key) 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him”. (another key). the Lord Jesus said that he will “manifest himself”. but how is he manifesting himself to them, his disciple? this is the same question Judas asked, not Iscariot, listen, John 14:22" Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?”. this is the key question in understanding our Lord's return. this is another eureka moment in history, as with Moses asking God what is his name. the Lord Jesus said that he will manifest himself to them. here is how he manifested himself, in (POWER). Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”. this is the manifestation that Judas asked about in John 14, and the Lord himself said that he would. notice, Judas asked, “Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?”. again, notice Judas said, “unto us (them, the disciples). here’s how the Lord Jesus manifested himself to his disciples and not the world. the manifestation of Christ is in the Spiritual “GIFTS” of the Holy Spirit. these Spiritual gifts was given on the day of Pentecost, and are listed in the scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:7" But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal”. there’s that manifestation that Judas asked about, and what the Lord said that he would do. the full list of “GIFTS”, read as follows,1 Corinthians 12:8-11. and the one that was "MANIFESTED" on Pentecost is 1 Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues". BINGO again.
    This pouring out of these gifts happen on the day of Pentecost, just as the prophet Joel spoke by the Word of God. Joel 2:28" And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit”.

    The second of his two fold return will be in bodily form, and for all eyes to see him. the first return was not visually observed by all eyes, (the world). for he returned in spirit, (abstract). his next, or the second of his two fold return will be visually seen by everyone in concrete form, all the world, or every eyes will see him. scripture, Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen”. this is the return everyone knows about and is waiting for. understand, this return is yet to happen. most christians calls this the Parousia (second coming) . 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words”. another supporting scripture of the Lord’s two fold return, which is our Revealing Scripture, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation". this is the second scripture confirming the second two fold coming of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ. these are the two fold returns of our Lord Jesus the Christ.

    Conclusion: with this first of his two fold returns, which the first return happen on Pentecost in the MANIFESTATION of the Spiritual gifts. we who are alive look for his coming in glorified flesh and bone, but no blood. we know that the Lord JESUS is the Spirit, the comforter, the Holy Spirit, here's our knowledge. as a man, (which is his own image that was to come, he sits in heaven as our high priest, making intersession on our behalf, as mediator. scripture, 1Ti 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". is this one God, diversified, the man JESUS?, Gal 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one". so this first of his two fold return is fulfilled without doubt, he JESUS came unto them, by manifesting himself in the Spiritual Gifts. now we look for his second fold coming, or return, amen

    we will end it here, too much info you might not graps. but share this with those scholars with a knowledge of the Greek and biblical interpretation who have grappled with this. now they will see clearly.

    understand something, let the Holy Spirit, JESUS, teach you, GOD and you want struggle to understand.

    now if you still are struggling, just ask... ok.

    PICJAG.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Three Gods.
     
  7. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    @JohnPaul all the above long detailed drawn out posts are complicated and yes, utterly confusing. Ignore them. Keep it simple. Father. Son. The spirit of God. Now the confusion status when we, as finite ignorant beings, attempt to understand and define the infinite. What God has clearly revealed is... There is the Father, the Almighty. He has a Son. His name we call Jesus/Jehoshua/Jesus... All of which I think acceptable. Both are clearly defined individual beings... Literal separate personalities, both by their very nature, God. Them we have the holy Spirit . We know God is spirit. The Bible speaks of the spirit of God, or the spirit of Christ. Not two spirits. Not three. One Spirit. The spirit that belongs to God. Therefore the Father and the Son share the same spirit. A third individual being? In some sense it appears that way. The Spirit can be grieved. Offended. We speak of it as a 'he' sometimes, but also as 'it'. A third person of the Godhead, maybe, but not in the same sense as we understand the Father and Son as persons . The thing is, we are simply not told. All of our surmisings on how the Godhead is comprised (3in1) etc and all the other theories and definitions and formulas are in reality assumptions . And can only be assumptions because bottom line is, we do not know... It is holy ground and for men to speculate on the nature of the Godhead is dangerous... And unnecessary.
    As I have been saying to Enoch, and saying elsewhere on this forum, the only essential we need to believe and accept is that Jesus is the Son of God. Now if by being the Son that makes Him divine, so be it.
     
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  8. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for taking the time to explain @brakelite.
     
  9. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    You took zero interest in the exegesis and exposition I provided of what you stated here.

    The Lord Jesus CANNOT be the Holy Spirit because John 14:16 describes the Holy Spirit as 'another Comforter'. He is NOT 'the same Comforter'. We know another parakletos is different from Jesus the Son because the next verse, John 14:17, states he is 'the Spirit of truth'.

    Another Comforter = the Spirit of truth.

    Nowhere in these verses does it state anything like what you claim: 'The Lord Jesus is the holy Spirit'. That is an heretical, nontrinitarian view that should be discussed in the Unorthodox Forum.

    Oz
     
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus is the Holy Spirit, isn't he promoting the unorthodox doctrine of 2 persons or 2 Gods?
     
  11. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    The Bible tells us that there is one God. The Bible also tells us there is one spirit. Now God is spirit. Yet the Bible also speaks of the Spirit of God, and the spirit of Christ. Do they have a spirit each? So if God is spirit, and the father and son both have spirits...
     
  12. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all. first thanks for the reply. second, I cain't believe you don't understand, U said, "The Lord Jesus CANNOT be the Holy Spirit because John 14:16 describes the Holy Spirit as 'another Comforter'. He is NOT 'the same Comforter'. We know another parakletos is different from Jesus the Son because the next verse, John 14:17, states he is 'the Spirit of truth'."
    have you not read anything we have said? the Greek term "ANOTHER" in John 14:17 is G243 Allos. "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort". just what is it you're not understanding? see Jesus is the "TRUTH" and the WAY.... the Comforter is the truth. we're going to break it down after this we will STOP, because we know you're collecting information to understand, but you have enough, especially after what we will tell you now.

    Another COMFORTER. so when was the FIRST COMFORTER? you said, "We know another parakletos is different from Jesus the Son because the next verse, John 14:17, states he is 'the Spirit of truth'.". our answer, the first Comforter,
    Luke 2:25 "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
    Luke 2:26 "And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ".

    the word "consolation" here is the Greek word, G3874 παράκλησις paraklesis (pa-ra'-klee-sis) n......... (smile)
    1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)).
    2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
    3. a comfort, solace.
    [from G3870]
    KJV: comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty
    Root(s): G3870

    Oz, get your Greek scholars on this word. one who gives "help" is a ... yes, "HELPER". One who gives counsel is a "Counsellor", or the "advocate" for someone. and lastely, one who gives comfort is a ....... yes, "COMFORTER". are you getting this, dose any of these title ring a bell?

    this is the FIRST "COMFORTER" Jesus Christ, God Diversified in Flesh, the Offspring, the Son. so get your scholars on that word ok.
    which bring us to John 14:17. the "TRUTH" the comforter came first in flesh as the Son, now the same person who is the Son is coming in POWER as the "COMFORTER" in Spirit. while we're in John 14, examine first, verse 16. "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you". well now did not the Lord Jesus promise that he will be with us until the end of the world? let's see. Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen".
    HOLD IT, how in the world is Jesus is going to be with us even untill the end of the WORLD? well, in Spirit, John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
    now the question, "when did JESUS come?", remember my last post #1465.
    you are not reading oz. you should have never even asked that question which was already answered.

    well as said, you're trying to learn, but to no avail. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". 2 Timothy 3:7

    so learn as what is given, and when you understand, answer the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 question, is this the same person, then we will know if you understand.... (smile).

    PICJAG.
     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I would say, don't ignore them. Take in all the information that you can; and seek the Holy Ghost for what He has to say about it all. You can gains added insight by looking at what people have to say, scripturally, about any doctrine. Just be sure to draw your conclusions from the holy scripture and only subscribe to an opinion if it makes sense according to the holy scriptures.

    In the immediate context, Jesus says, I will come to you. which indicates that that other Comforter is to a certain extent the Lord Jesus Christ.

    There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and His name is Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3). Nevertheless it is written that the Lord is that Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17). What Spirit? There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

    In Luke 23:46, Jesus said to the Father, Into thy hands I commend my spirit; and then gave up the Ghost. Jesus' body was separated from His Spirit; and in this the Holy Ghost became another Comforter; because Jesus continued to be a Person all His own. But this Holy Ghost is "the Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8:9); and is in a very strong sense Jesus Christ as a Person, in Spirit.

    brakelite, this is subtle and appears to be an introduction to false theology. There is one Spirit according to Ephesians 4:4. So then, the Father and the Son do not have "spirits" they have a Spirit...I would go so far as to say that they are a Spirit (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Did you just discover that 101G has been promoting his heresies for quite some time? He's just sowing seeds of spiritual confusion, hoping that someone will believe his nonsense.
     
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    No that is NOT what it means. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. But so does Christ ("Christ in you the hope of glory). But so does the Godhead. There are three distinct divine Persons, and yet there are people here who simply REFUSE TO BELIEVE this fundamental doctrine.
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    So then, there are two Spirits dwelling within me?

    My Bible tells me that there is only one (Ephesians 4:4).

    Romans 8:9 might tell you something about who the Spirit of Christ is, that He is the Spirit of the Lord God. And that He is Jesus Christ.

    Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    Rom 8:10, And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    Here, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and Christ are said to dwell within the believer. And if you look at it with Holy Ghost illumination, you will understand that it is saying that the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ. One Spirit, Ephesians 4:4.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    If you want to get technical the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all dwell within the believer. Now take careful note of these verses:

    THE FATHER (WHOM NO MAN HAS SEEN)
    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us... Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.(1 John 4:12,15)
    And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (2 Cor 6:16)

    THE SON (THE LORD JESUS CHRIST)
    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:11,12)
    And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom 8:10)

    THE HOLY SPIRIT

    But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.(John 7:39)
    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:16,17)

    So there is no need to say "There are two Spirits dwelling within me". Understand clearly that the Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and they are not to be confused or confounded with each other. They all come to indwell the believer.
     
  18. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Do you see that One God right there in the center of the image?
    You might be experiencing some difficulty.
    THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.

    Are you a son?
    Are you a cousin?
    Are you an uncle?

    Are you three people?
     
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  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    So,
    God is one Person in your estimation (with different relationships to different people)?
     
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  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Right. There is one Spirit dwelling within me: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

    The three amount to being one Person/Spirit/Lord/God.
     
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