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Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, TO ALL.
    first thanks for the responses. second,
    it's not what you find, but what God says, and states in his word, and what we have been saying is in the scriptures.
    We're glad you said this. we're going to answer each and every one of your post and question one by one. I have made a copy of all your post, and will answer each and every one of them.

    #1. U said above, "Personhood refers to an “I,” a “who,” or a subject".
    based on what you just said,
    A. is this the same "person" in these two scriptures"
    Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
    "I" am the LORD. is a Perason, correct. and this person was alone, and by himself, correct. meaning no one else was there when "he" made all things. NOW THIS.
    John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God.
    John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".
    HIM HERE IS THE "SUBJECT, THE PERSON.

    now Oz, is the person, "I" the LORD, in Isaiah 44:24 is the same "person", "him", in John 1:3 who is God THAT MADE ALL THINGS, yes or no.
    no explination please, just a yes or no will do for right now. afterward we'll discuss. your answer please.

    PICJAG.

    ps, as said I made copies of your replies, and we will get to all of them but we want to go at these questions one question at a time without distractions.
     
  2. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I read th article. I DO like that shield because it shows the following,,,which was stated in the article:

    So the following twelve propositions can be read off the diagram:

    • "The Father is God"
    • "The Son is God"
    • "The Holy Spirit is God"
    • "God is the Father"
    • "God is the Son"
    • "God is the Holy Spirit"
    • "The Father is not the Son"
    • "The Father is not the Holy Spirit"
    • "The Son is not the Father"
    • "The Son is not the Holy Spirit"
    • "The Holy Spirit is not the Father"
    • "The Holy Spirit is not the Son"
    source: Shield of the Trinity - Wikipedia
     
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  3. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Oz. I knew what it means...I was trying to get the other member to THINK. Very rarely do I ever ask a real question (maybe to YOU).
     
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  4. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    @ GG, as you said, "Getting other members to think". that's good, for in the topic, "The Mystery of the Triune Godhead", we are going to touch on some topics that will get many to thinking. so peak in on some of the discussion. hope it will be a good one.

    and while I'm here as to touching on the Godhead. many who believe in the trinity, say oh it's a "MYSTERY". no, it's just a part of the strong delusion that God himself has already sent. supportive scripture, Isaiah 66:2 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
    Isaiah 66:3 "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
    Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not".
    you might want to make a cross of the above verse to 2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2 Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    2 Thessalonians 2:9 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    2 Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    2 Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    see that "s" on delusion in Isaiah 66:4 above, not just one but many at God's own choosing. yes, these false doctrine, which are many will cause many to fall. they will believe if it kills them.... (smile). and this is some of the things I hope we will bring out in the topic, "The Mystery of the Triune Godhead". so as said, peak in.

    PICJAG.
     
  5. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    So some don't love the truth and are being fed lies.

    You betta hurry up and tell us what these lies are...
    'cause I'm gettin' tireda waitin'.
     
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  6. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    BINGO,
    GG, did you not read our post above?

    PICJAG.

    Now the "MYSTERY" cleared up again.
    John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." hello... hello..... hello. "I WILL COME TO YOU". question, "When did the Lord Jesus came to them/his disciples?" .... welll......... NOW if he didn't come to them then he, Jesus lied, God forbid. and since he's the truth, he did come to them. so the question is ..... "WHEN". lets examine the scriptures futher.

    John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him". the Lord Jesus said, that he will MANIFEST himself to them, but Judas ask an IMPORTANT QUESTION, John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?". answer in the Spiritual Gifts, and that happen on the day of Pentecost.

    here clearly in John 14:18 the Lord Jesus told us who he is, the COMFORTER. for he is the " Advocate/Comforter" 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

    here the Greek term advocate is the same word for "Comforter".

    G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
    1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
    2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
    3. a comforter.
    [(not given)]
    KJV: advocate, comforter

    notice, this advocate, comforter is an intercessor, (see definition #2 above). and who is the intercessor? let's see. Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered". THERE HE IS, JESUS THE INTERCESSOR/the HOLY SPIRIT. for he, Jesus, our advocate/the Comforter, the Spirit, make intercession for us.

    now to my trinity Believers, you ask who is Jesus praying to, ok, well we ask who is the Spirit praying to? remember God is a Spirit, (per John 4:24a)..... (smile).

    PICJAG.

    PS, that should give someone something to THINK about.
     
  7. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    When on earth and in the Garden,
    Jesus was praying to God Father.
    He was not praying to Himself.

    I posted a link for you twice.
    Did you read it?
    What was in the article with which you did not agree?

    When I'm given links I REPLY TO THEM...
    I didn't post them for fun.

    If you want to discuss the link, fine.
    Otherwise, I can no longer speak to you about your fantasies
    about the Godhead/Trinity.
     
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  8. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    this is the delusion we're talking about. first, Wikipedia is not a Good source on the Godhead, but the bible is the final authority.

    and second, no problem, "you don't have longer speak to me"....... (smile). but the word of God is not changing for anyone.

    Good day

    PICJAG.
     
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I didn't post wikipedia.!
    You never read the article...it's the perfect explanation for the Godhead/Trinity.

    I'll post it again..
    Any other explanation of the Godhead/Trinity is of your own doing and does not correspond to the Christian belief of what the Trinity is.

    Trinity | Truth Challenge
     
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  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    I can agree with you on this basis but your definition doesn't go far enough. How a person understands and relates to another person contributes to the maintenance of personhood.

    I agree with you that being an actual 'I', which I stated in my post, is important in determining personhood. But we don't know what 'I' looks like until boundaries of behaviour are set around the 'I'.

    Where you set those boundaries will determine the person who possesses defined capacities. For example, does a person promote goodness with those living with dementia in a nursing home? Does personhood place a limit on crime and violence perpetrators. Although all of these people can be defined by 'I', don't they need further explanations of the boundaries? Do Hitler and the current terrorists exhibit the behaviour of persons? Yes, they do but their behaviour needs to be judged by the laws of the land in which they live.

    Does the person who is an 'I' need to communicate with others in the native language to be considered a person? Yes, indeed!

    Where someone falls in relation to those boundaries will determine whether s/he is considered a person or a “non-person”.

    Quite simply, the definition of personhood is the quality or condition of being an individual person. At the core of personhood is the self - who we are are, our values and beliefs. It’s who makes us who we are. Being able to recognize the “self” of personhood is key to understanding and practicing person-centered care for persons living with dementia (Personhood and its Value in Dementia Care).​

    So who interprets what God gives us in Scripture? You, me or somebody else? No writing is without interpretation. You seem to be saying that what 'God says' and has been 'saying in the scriptures' is a blank slate that God interprets for everyone. You know that is not the case.

    You miss something critical and that is interpreting all Scripture by Scripture. Gen 1:1-2 (ESV) states: 'In the beginning, God [Heb plural] created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters'. This is the first indication of plurality in the Godhead. So, Father, Son and Holy Spirit were involved in creation.

    The Holy Spirit was active with the Father and the Word in creation. He is the active power of God present within creation.

    The Holy Spirit is involved in creative activity
    Ge 1:2 See also Job 26:13; Ps 33:6 The word translated “breath” is the same word that is used for “Spirit”.

    The Holy Spirit is the breath of life throughout creation
    Ge 2:7 See also Job 12:10; Job 32:8; Job 33:4; Job 34:14-15; Ps 104:30

    The Holy Spirit is present everywhere in creation
    Ps 139:7-8
    Therefore, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit were in action at the beginning of creation. Your acrobatics with Isa 44 and John1 do not work with me (Source: Dictionary of Bible themes).

    Is this a person? If not why not?

    [​IMG]

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101,

    Are you continuing to promote this view that nobody needs to interpret Scripture 'but the word of God is not changing for anyone'. Which word of God? The one interpreted by you or somebody else? An unbiased view of Scripture doesn't exist, although you speak as though it does.

    Oz
     
  12. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.
    I read the paper, nothing new, and all those points we answered in "Jesus is the Holy Spirit". but we notice that none of the questions we have asked right here on this forum was never addressesd. so that article is incomplete.

    thanks,
    PICJAG.
     
  13. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Good that we agree on something. now, did not the "I" create all things?, which nullify your other questions, listen to what you said,
    did you really notice what you said, "This is the first indication of plurality in the Godhead. So, Father, Son and Holy Spirit were involved in creation".
    ERROR, and a BIG ERROR, and here's why. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;". do you see your ERROR now? if not here it is. the LORD the Spirit was "ALONE" and "by himself" when he created all things, no three person in creation, only one. so in Genesis 1:1 the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') is a plurality of himsel that is to come and was not yet MANIFESTED, or made visable. lets understand, Isaiah 44:24 just keep on shooting your trinity in the foot. he was alone and by himself. the scriptures are plain.
    now let's see the Son to cone in Genesis 1:26, which is God himself, listen. Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth". do you see the "US" and the "OUR" here in verse 26. now verse 27, the very next verse, listen. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". did you see it? if not, here it is. this same "GOD", H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') who is in Genesis 1:1 the plurality, is the same God who said "US" and "OUR" in verse 26 is saying "HIS" and "HE" which are single designations in verse 27 are declaring HIMSELF a plurality of his OWNself. that's why God said, "his" image. STOP, and THINK. how can God have an IMAGE, if he's invisible. to have an IMAGE one must first have a SOURCE. I cannot take a picture of 101G if 101G is invisible, KNOCK, KNOCK.
    so what is the ANSWER, here it is. the IMAGE of God "man" was to come. listen, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come". was to come, was to come, to come? FIGURE here is "IMAGE", it's the Greek word,
    G5179 τύπος tupos (tï '-pos) n.
    1. a die (as struck).
    2. (by implication) a stamp or scar.
    3. (by analogy) a shape, i.e. a statue.
    4. (figuratively) style or resemblance.
    5. (specially) a sampler (“type”), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning).
    [from G5180]
    KJV: en-(ex-)ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print
    notice definition #2, keep it in mind. now this,
    Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".
    express image:
    G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
    1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
    2. (by implication) an engraving.
    3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
    4. (by extension) an exact copy.
    5. (figuratively) a representation.
    [from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
    KJV: express image

    now, analyze or compare Definition #2 in G5179 τύπος tupos (tï '-pos) FIGURE above with definition #3 in G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') EXPRESS IMAGE. "the STAMP" or IMAGE of his, his, his, "PERSON. see Hebrews said, "the express image of his person". not someone else who is a separate PERSON, no HIS, HIS, HIS, person. meaning the same one PERSON.
    THAT'S THE TRINITARIANS MISTAKE. it's the same person "SHARED" in flesh which is to come, hence the "US" and the "OUR" the TRUE IMAGE TO COME. and this "SHARING" of oneself in flesh is confirm by the Greek word "ANOTHER" which Adam is, "ANOTHER" of himself. listen, G243 Allos, "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort". the numerical difference is God's plurality. BINGO, and the same "sort" is as hebrews states , "HIS PERSON", meaning the same ONE PERSON. BINGO again.

    this is too easy, so simple to understand, are our definitions going to far? understand "sharing" of ONEself in flesh to come. EVE is the equal share of the man, hence she is an ADAM, which means "ANOTHER, easy. and all these scriptures support this, Genesis 1:1, 1:26, 11:7, and all through out the OT. and the NT. John 1:1, and Matthews 3:16 & 17 are clear example of God coming, and "sharing" himself in flesh. this is all through out the NT.

    Conclusion: God's plurality is identified in his despenstations. "I AM THAT I AM, or as Revelation says, "which is, and which was, and which is to come". the three despenstations of God are.
    Old Testament. Despenstation #1. "I AM"/"Which is". God, Spirit, the Holy Spirit without flesh, invisible, Title "FATHER", LORD, ROOT, FIRST, BEGINNING.

    New Testament. Despenstation #2. "THAT"/"which was". God, Spirit, diversified/shared, the Holy Spirit, with flesh, VISBLE, title Son, Lord, OFFSPRING, LAST, END.

    Grace, the End. Despenstation #3. "I AM"/which is to come". God, Spirit, diversified/shared, the Holy Spirit, GLORIFIED, VISBLE, and INVISBLE, title, Lord and LORD, ROOT and OFFSPRING, FIRST and LAST, BEGINNING and END.

    this answeres all the bible from Genesis to Revelation. it answers the "US", the "OUR", and "I", and the "He", all of it.

    we suggest you re-read this post again. if you cannot get or understand what we have said, we leave you with Revelation 22:11

    PICJAG.

    RE-READ this POST. you might want to copy this to your computer for futher study at your leisure.
     
  14. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Well-Known Member

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    This is all confusing, I believe in God the father, creator of heaven and earth, and our Lord Savior, God’s only begotten son, and the Holy Spirit, what we get fro the father and son.

    So what do I believe in?
     
  15. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    What you understand is sufficient. God will reveal more to you if necessary all in good time. Be content with what you have, but be willing to accept more when it is offered. Don't fret it.
     
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  16. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Brakelite, I will.
     
  17. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Let's clear up some things, ONE at a TIME. Father is "LORD" all cap, and the Son, "Lord". same person, let's see.
    well let the bible answer this question ONE "Lord" and ONE "LORD". scripture, Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward". HERE CLEAR WITHOUT ANY DOUBT "GOD" IS LORD AND Lord. case closed.
    believe this John 14:1.

    PICJAG.
     
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  18. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    How could Jesus be the Holy Spirit if He is JESUS?

    Let me post that image for you again.
    You should study it carefully.


    [​IMG]


    As you can see,
    THE SON IS NOT the Holy Spirit
    THE SON IS NOT the Father

    He IS the 2nd person of the Trinity,,,,THE SON.

    Each person has their very own personality.
    And their very own work to do.
    But they are all of the same substance...and in one God.
     
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  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    First thanks for the reply. second, we know the the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit because he told us so himself. listen, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".
    GG, did you not hear? read verse 18 again, how plain can one get.

    that trinity symbol is a part of the delusion. God name is JESUS who is Spirit, the creator, LORD who came in flesh Lord. for Jesus is both "LORD" and "Lord". once more, Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward"
    understand, God is "LORD", and "Lord". LORD in Spirit, and Lord in flesh.

    understand GG, you have been blinded. your mind has blinders on it. you must re-new your mind.

    so until you read the bible yourself there is nothing I can do.

    PICJAG.
     
  20. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    If 'Jesus is the Holy Spirit', does that mean the Holy Spirit does not exist in the Godhead as a separate person?

    Oz
     
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