Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

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101G

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" The Father cannot be the same Person as the Son; for the Father (the One who inhabiteth eternity) does not dwell in flesh."
this is what you posted from post #1798. if it was a mistake on your part no problem.
BUT THE TERMS "FATHER" AND "SON" ARE ONLY TITLES OF THE SAME ONE PERSON. so your argument is nullified.

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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" The Father cannot be the same Person as the Son; for the Father (the One who inhabiteth eternity) does not dwell in flesh."
this is what you posted from post #1798. if it was a mistake on your part no problem.
BUT THE TERMS "FATHER" AND "SON" ARE ONLY TITLES OF THE SAME ONE PERSON. so your argument is nullified.

PICJAG.
There are two distinct Persons that we are here speaking of (who are, in fact, one Person): the Father as He inhabits eternity; and the Father as He dwells in human flesh.

Both Persons are equally the Father: but one dwells in human flesh and the other inhabits eternity.
 
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101G

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GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, U said,
There are two distinct Persons that we are here speaking of (who are, in fact, one Person): the Father as He inhabits eternity; and the Father as He dwells in human flesh.

Both Persons are equally the Father: but one dwells in human flesh and the other inhabits eternity.
ok, if it's one person, how did it get to be two? see your dilemma now? well we been telling you this all along. it is his EQUAL "SHARE" by sharing he's the same but is as the "another" of himself he's the G243c allos of himself in flesh. and you know G243 allos express a numerical difference, of the same sort, BINGO, there's your two of the same one.
see, JESUS, God, the Father, is the equal share of himself in flesh, God who is the Son. see how easy this is to understand. we been saying this all along.

now let's see if you can absorb this.

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, U said,

ok, if it's one person, how did it get to be two? see your dilemma now? well we been telling you this all along. it is his EQUAL "SHARE" by sharing he's the same but is as the "another" of himself he's the G243c allos of himself in flesh. and you know G243 allos express a numerical difference, of the same sort, BINGO, there's your two of the same one.
see, JESUS, God, the Father, is the equal share of himself in flesh, God who is the Son. see how easy this is to understand. we been saying this all along.

now let's see if you can absorb this.

PICJAG.
I think that we have been in agreement all along; but that you have stumbled at my use of terminology.
 

101G

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first thanks for the reply, second, you said,
I think that we have been in agreement all along; but that you have stumbled at my use of terminology.
I don't believe so. we been saying that the Father and Son are the titles of the same one person, only shared, or diversified in flesh. we been saying that the Father is the Son, meaning that the Son is the Father in flesh, in a shared state. and to make that point home, it is the same one and only person who created and made all things. meaning he was in an none diversified state as creator, and maker. see it was JESUS who made Adam..... hence the title Father, and when he came in flesh, (his diversified states, meaning he took on flesh and blood), as Son, this is what died, that flesh with blood, that body. that's why the Jews could not understand that Christ abide for ever, yet he died. yes he died to a NATURAL STATE, so that we can be partakers of his, GOD, divine nature. hence God is our REDEEMER, the Son. yes, now in a glorified state, with a glorified body.
so our terminology haven't change. now if your terminology states this also, please excuse me, because you have a right to the way you used the language, and it's my ignorance that I missed this, if so, forgive me, and charge it to my head, and not my heart. ok.
so if we agree, then we can compare notes, and walk as ONE. we are stronger together, than apart.
PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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Does the One who inhabits eternity dwell in flesh?

The answer is, that He does not (for He dwells in eternity), except in the Person of the Son. In that the Father descended and took on human flesh.
 

101G

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Does the One who inhabits eternity dwell in flesh?

The answer is, that He does not (for He dwells in eternity), except in the Person of the Son. In that the Father descended and took on human flesh.
is this verse correct? Colossians 2:9: "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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is this verse correct? Colossians 2:9: "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

PICJAG.
Yes, it is correct.

I'm not sure what it is that I am saying that you are disagreeing with. Because I agree with your assessment that the one Spirit is shared in flesh; and have integrated that idea into what I believe.
 

101G

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Yes, it is correct.

I'm not sure what it is that I am saying that you are disagreeing with. Because I agree with your assessment that the one Spirit is shared in flesh; and have integrated that idea into what I believe.
GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply. second, I believe where we still differ is in the titles, "Father", and "Son". these are the titles of the ONE true God. same one Spirit, same one Person, only diversified. the one Spirit holds two titles, not that the Spirit when diversified are two persons, no, but the same person, only as the Greeks say, G243 allos of oneself. and that diversity which is the offspring as the G2758 kenoo is in that state while in flesh, with blood redeemed us, (by the death of the flesh). but afterward, glorified, without blood, now the filling of all thing, yet diversified, and as our High Priest, mediates for us. if you are in agreement with this as the bible states, then we do walk together with Christ, and you can ignore this post.
PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply. second, I believe where we still differ is in the titles, "Father", and "Son". these are the titles of the ONE true God. same one Spirit, same one Person, only diversified. the one Spirit holds two titles, not that the Spirit when diversified are two persons, no, but the same person, only as the Greeks say, G243 allos of oneself. and that diversity which is the offspring as the G2758 kenoo is in that state while in flesh, with blood redeemed us, (by the death of the flesh). but afterward, glorified, without blood, now the filling of all thing, yet diversified, and as our High Priest, mediates for us. if you are in agreement with this as the bible states, then we do walk together with Christ, and you can ignore this post.
PICJAG.
Yes I am in agreement.

I didn't want to ignore the post however because I want you to know positively that we are in agreement concerning these things.

I will say that the Person who holds the title "Father" is slightly different from the Person who holds the title "Son", in that the "Father" inhabits eternity, and the "Son" dwells in human flesh.

But yes, they are the same, One Spirit.

I say that the Son is the Father, but that the Father is not the Son, in that the Father does not dwell in human flesh; but that the Son is the same Spirit as the Father.

Please think about what I am saying before you answer.
 

justbyfaith

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As one who has been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, but who did not (physically) continue with the Oneness Pentecostals to be indoctrinated by them, I nevertheless hold to a view of the Godhead that emphasizes His Oneness (although I do not deny the plurality within the Godhead).

I believe that, according to Isaiah 9:6-7, the son that was given shall be given the name of the everlasting Father; and that it is the zeal of the LORD of hosts that shall do this at a specific moment in history; which I believe is yet future.

The Father did not vacate eternity when He descended to become the Son,

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

And thus, while the Father in flesh (Jesus Christ of Nazareth the Son of God) was on earth, He also remained behind in eternity and answered all of Jesus' prayers from that standpoint.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

This would tell us that the Father dwells outside of time. He lived one eternal "moment" and then descended to become the Son.

Since One who dwells in eternity cannot vacate eternity (because He is not subject to time and therefore His existence in eternity cannot be spatially removed); therefore, when He descended to become the Son, the imprint of His nature remained behind in eternity; and this imprint is actually the Person of the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Father); while He also descended to take on human flesh; and that this Person in flesh, being the same Spirit and therefore the same Person, nevertheless assumed upon Himself human flesh which by necessity makes Him a different Person. Thus I speak forth the words of truth and soberness, that the Father is not the Son; but that the Son is the Father.

The one Spirit (see Ephesians 4:4) that dwells in the Son is the same Spirit (see 1 Corinthians 12:4-6) that inhabiteth eternity; even the Father.

Now comes the test...of whether you are willing to look at the scriptures that back up my pov.

Consider that John 4:23-24 tells us that the Father is a Spirit; that Ephesians 4:4 tells us that there is one Spirit; and that John 14:7-11 tells us that the Spirit that dwelt/dwelleth in Jesus Christ is the Father.

Therefore, it is clear to me from the holy scriptures, that Jesus Christ, in His Spirit, is the Father; but that He also left behind in eternity the distinct imprint of Himself (who is the Father, even a Person who is not only an imprint but the Person of the Father).

This is the One that Jesus prayed to. I have used terminology that is inadequate to explain my position; in all reality God the Father is not an imprint of God's nature but is God Himself. He both went forward to become the Son; and also stayed behind as the One who inhabiteth eternity. In this, the Father exists in eternity while the Son simultaneously exists on earth.

Now when Jesus rose from the dead, He rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); while He continued to exist in a finite human body, which I believe is not subject to time. He ascended to exist outside of time, side-by-side with his pre-incarnate self. Thus, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1).

The Holy Ghost, who is also that one Spirit who dwelt/dwelleth in Christ, was also released by Christ back to the Father (Luke 23:46) into eternity. He is the same Spirit as the Father, and also has the experience behind Him of living the life of Jesus; and therefore He is the perfect One to come and dwell within us and to make intercession for the saints according to the will of God. He understands humanity; for He has been human.

Now there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). That Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24). But that Spirit is also the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39).

The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father (John 15:26); but He is also the same Spirit as the Father (1 Corinthians 12:4-6; also consider that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) and that this Spirit is both the Father (John 4:23-24) and the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39).

All of this is in no way saying that God puts on hats or masks and puts on a different hat or mask for any occasion.

It is saying, however, that there is one God; even as the scripture teaches we would do well to believe (James 2:19).

The opposing viewpoint has the problem of being Tritheistic to a certain degree; in other words, you cannot get around the fact that they are preaching three Gods rather than the same God being all three members of the Trinity.

Why should it be surprising to you that I would make the statement that God is a Person?

The doctrine of the Trinity preaches that He is three-in-one; and the concepts that I place before you do not contradict this understanding.

Therefore, if you have a problem with what I am saying, go to the Lord about it. Seek Him. Ask Him if what I am saying is the case or not. And by all means, be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11).



More accurately, the Son was the Father before He became the Son.
 

101G

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Yes I am in agreement.

I didn't want to ignore the post however because I want you to know positively that we are in agreement concerning these things.

I will say that the Person who holds the title "Father" is slightly different from the Person who holds the title "Son", in that the "Father" inhabits eternity, and the "Son" dwells in human flesh.,
GINOLJC, to all.
you're not really understanding what we nor the bible is saying. listen to yourself, "the Person who holds the title "Father" is slightly different from the Person who holds the title Son". if that's true, then answer this 1 Timothy 6:16: "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen."
now think Justbyfaith, if the Lord JESUS is the only one who has immortality where do that leaves the one whom you calls "Father" .... well?
understand, the one who dwells in or inhabits eternity is the same one who dwelt in flesh in linear time at the same time.
lets read so that you can understand, listen, John 14:17: "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
is not God a Spirit? and there are not two Spirit, now this. John 14:23: "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my wor. ds: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." here "abode" means to dwell. so the one whom you calls the Father dwells in us, as well as in eternity, understand now?

Revelation time. the one whom you calls Father and Son is JESUS the COMFORTER, the same one person. listen,
John 14:18: "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." JESUS is the comforter, the only true GOD. he said, "I and my Father will come and dwell with and in you". there's that diversity, the Root, (Father), and the Offspring, (Son). it's by only one Spirit, him, JESUS.
so until you understand that, then we walk together.

I pray God gives you this understanding.
PICJAG
 

justbyfaith

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Yes, I already have this understanding. I pray that you would go back and read some of my posts. In doing so you will be able to understand the revelation that the Lord has given me. May the Lord give you understanding as you read: I pray that He will help you to understand the reality of what I am saying. In order to understand fully, you need to see all of my statements in a post in context of each other, rather than picking out certain statements and disagreeing with them because they don't fit your pattern of theology. I believe that if you do this, you will see that we are essentially saying the same thing.
 

101G

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Yes, I already have this understanding. I pray that you would go back and read some of my posts. In doing so you will be able to understand the revelation that the Lord has given me. May the Lord give you understanding as you read: I pray that He will help you to understand the reality of what I am saying. In order to understand fully, you need to see all of my statements in a post in context of each other, rather than picking out certain statements and disagreeing with them because they don't fit your pattern of theology. I believe that if you do this, you will see that we are essentially saying the same thing.
first thanks for the reply, second, I have been reading your posts the latter and the first. and three, no way the Lord Jesus revealed something to you and to me and it's not the SAME THING about the same thing. WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU IN THAT THE FATHER DON'T DWELL IN FLESH, AS WELL AS ETERNITY, so do the Son. we have shown that by scriptures. only one have "immortality" and this is JESUS, who is Father and Son. and this is true. if the Father inhabits eternity so do the Son for he is the SAME ONE PERSON. there is no separation of the Father and the Son. he is a "diversity" of his ownself in flesh, that I have not read in your posts.

if you think the Father is not the Son or the Son is not the Father we cannot agree. lets give an example of what we're speaking of. you said, "The Father did not vacate eternity when He descended to become the Son", STOP, it is the Spirit, not the Father, nor the Son. it's the Spirit, and yes, the Spirit vacate as the share, as the share, as the share, eternity. here's why. Isaiah 53:1-2: "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
ok, do God "grow?" in eternity?...... no. that's why he, the Spirit, JESUS, God, in flesh as the share, G2758 kenoo himself. this we see you don't understand.
PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU IN THAT THE FATHER DON'T DWELL IN FLESH, AS WELL AS ETERNITY,

Can you reiterate this a little more clearly? Your statement is too vague for me to grasp.

if the Father inhabits eternity so do the Son

Yes, the Son inhabits eternity with the Father (John 1:1); after He descended and then ascended to again be outside of time.

you said, "The Father did not vacate eternity when He descended to become the Son", STOP, it is the Spirit, not the Father, nor the Son.

The Father is that Spirit. Have you never read John 4:23-24? There is one Spirit; and that Spirit is the Father. The same Spirit took on human flesh and dwelt among us. What is so hard about that for you to understand? Are you not baptized in Jesus' Name?
 

101G

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first thanks for the reply,
WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU IN THAT THE FATHER DON'T DWELL IN FLESH, AS WELL AS ETERNITY,
U said, "Can you reiterate this a little more clearly? Your statement is too vague for me to grasp"
it's not vague, do not God dwell in you and I? yes, are you still in flesh?. and in that resurrected, glorified body is it not flesh and bone? yes. so God dwells in a flesh and bone body.

then you said,
Yes, the Son inhabits eternity with the Father (John 1:1); after He descended and then ascended to again be outside of time.
with the Father, he is the Father. see the error. the Father us not a separate person from the Son.
listen John 1:1 read Isaiah 41:4: "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the First (Father) is "WITH" the Last (Son). is this two separate persons? no, and here's why. listen, Isaiah 48:12: "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." see, it's the same one person. "WITH" IN JOHN 1:1 IS SHOWING THE DIVERSITY NOW WITHIN GOD AS THE EQUAL SHARE. that's why John 1:1c state he, is GOD.
see there is no "with" someone else, it's with himself as the share, the same one person.
dwelling "with" is he himself.

and it's the one Spirit who hold the titles "Father" and "Son", in and out of flesh.
see, justbyfaith, you're seeing two separate person, no it's only one person shared equally in and out of flesh. again study G243 allos. used vines dictionary, which gives a good definition.

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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Actually I am in agreement with you.

The one Spirit, both inhabits eternity and also dwells in the human flesh of Him who holds the title "the Son of God."

Now consider the doctrine of the hypostatic union. In it, the humanity of Christ and His Deity are intertwined. He is both 100% God and 100% Man.

In this, Christ, who has the added nature of humanity, has also added to Him the personality of humanity (whereas He who holds the title "Father" does not have this personality in Him).

It says that He partook of flesh and blood so that He could partake of death on behalf of every man.

As such, He was subject to death as a human being. He considered, as a human being, and while He walked the earth, what it might mean for Him to die. It was a major part of His purpose in life that He would go to the Cross and effectively understand humanity, in that every human being fears death.

Jesus feared death Himself. He sweat great droplets of blood at the prospect of going to the Cross.

Therefore, it was a major part of what He came to do, that He came to determine why men do what they do. He came in order to gain experiential understanding of how in our lifetime we are subject to bondage because of the fear of death.

Once He came to this experiential understanding (in dying) He released His Spirit back to the Father (Luke 23:46). Now His Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11, Ephesians 4:4). So you have God the Father (the Spirit) dwelling in eternity and God who holds the title Holy Ghost (who is also the Father) dwelling side-by-side (next to Him) in eternity. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father (John 15:26).
 

101G

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first thanks for the reply, second, hate to keep on disagreeing with you, but when you said,
Now consider the doctrine of the hypostatic union. In it, the humanity of Christ and His Deity are intertwined. He is both 100% God and 100% Man.
there is no hypostatic union, our God took part, or took on our humanity of flesh and blood. he "took part" in our humanity, and not a "Partaker" in it, he has no biological father nor mother., without father, without mother. we suggest you study the difference between "took part" and "Partake".
PICJAG.

PICJAG.