Trinity?

[101G]

2 Episkopos, Greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.
true, is that one PERSON, or three PERSON?

Love and Peace
101G

 

[Episkopos]

2 Episkopos, Greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.
true, is that one PERSON, or three PERSON?

Love and Peace
101G

Bless you!!

 

[Guestman]

Guestman,

The Father is Spirit so no man has seen the Father, but Jesus is the exact representation of what the Father would be like for the Father Is exactly as His Word whom is Jesus. A body was prepared for Jesus to become flesh to experience and accomplish what no fallen man could. He had the Spirit of His Father which is the bloodline. He is the Seed of God which is to say the Word of God that impregnates our hearts to transform us into the children of God. The blood of a child comes only from the father of a child and had Jesus been born of Joseph's seed/bloodline he would have be born into sin just as we.
Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
KJV

The rendering of Acts 20:28 according to the King James Bible is inaccurate, and in which some have tried to use it in support of the trinity. The translators have rearranged the words, from the original reading of "Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit (not holy ghost) has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]", not with "his own blood."

The online interlinear Scripture4all, reads: "ho ekklesia ho theos hos peripoieo dia ho haima ho idios", which literally reads: "the out-called (congregation) of-the God which he-procures thru the blood of-the own (Greek haima ho idios )"

However, at Hebrews 9:12, the apostle Paul uses these Greek words in a different arrangement concerning Jesus, saying: " ho idios haima ", which literally means: " of-the own blood ". This scripture is rendered by the New World Translation as "he (Jesus) entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]." The King James Bible also says "by his own blood (Greek ho idios haima )" here also. The same arrangement of words are also found at Hebrew 13:12.

At both Hebrews 9:12 and 13:12, the King James Bible follows the correct arrangement of words but not at Acts 20:28. Why ? To provide support for the trinity, as if Jesus is God who gave "his own blood".(Acts 20:28, KJV)

to Guestman, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus the Christ.

"I and the Father are one?"
this scripture is true. the Father and the Son is ONE Spirit. to see it plainly, since you said that you're a Jehovah Witness? I ask you,

#1. Revelation 1:8 is this the Father or the Son?, your answer please.
#2. Revelation 1:17 & 18 is this the Father or the Son?, your answer please.

once you answer these question then one will know if the Father and the Son are ONE or not.

and to the trinitarians of this board. same greeting, true, God is with us, "Emmanuel". you say the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit is ONE God. if these three Person are one God, I ask, was it not the Holy Spirit who conceive the Child in Mary's womb. so by definition of the word Father, the Holy Spirit is the ONLY ONE who hold the title "Father" to the child that was conceive in the virgin Mary. question, since the Holy Spirit by definition is the Father to that child, then the title Father by definition is the Holy Spirit. with that (the title Father, belong to the Holy Spirit), this leave only two person, according to your doctrine of the trinity. for the title Father and Holy Spirit is one, and the SAME PERSON. I'll stop here for any responses to both question.

Love and Peace
101G.

Concerning John 10:30, whereby Jesus said that "I and the Father are one", he later clarified that in prayer to his Father: "Also, I have given them (his genuine disciples) the glory you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." He then says: "I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one."(John 17:22, 23)

Hence, Jesus was establishing that these would be in union with each other and with both Jesus and Jehovah God, that his faithful disciples would be as "one", not divided as the churches are. These would have the common goal of seeing to it that God's name of Jehovah is sanctified (Matt 6:9) or brought glory to by following Jesus words to "have love among yourselves".(John 13:34) All around the world, Jehovah's Witnesses are unified, receiving the same "spiritual food" that the "master" Jesus Christ is dispensing through a "faithful and discreet slave".(Matt 24:45)

At Revelation 1:8, it is Jehovah God speaking, for he alone is "Almighty" (Gen 17:1), and in which if a person were to carefully examine verse 8 in the Greek, it can be seen that God's name of Jehovah was supplanted with "Lord" or Greek kyrios, with the Greek reading "Lord the God" or more accurately Jehovah God. At Revelation 1:17, 18, it is Jesus speaking, for the context provides this at Revelation 1:13 as the "son of man" to whom this is applying.

You are confused I think between being "one" flesh" and one in essence. Jesus didn't marry His Father. He proceeds from Him...from His essence. Otherwise Jesus is just some created prophet like the Muslims believe He is.

A person cannot be Christian and deny the Son is part of God. It takes the blindness of an unbeliever to not see this.

Jesus and the Father are One.... a part of Elohim (plural). The Father is greater because He is MORE than Jesus Christ. He is bigger.... just like any Son compared to any Father. But He is the same as the Father in the way that a son is "a chip off the old block."

There are hundreds of verses that state that Jesus is Immanuel...GOD with us. Without the divinity of Christ, we would all be dead in our sins...just like those who deny Christ are to this point in time.


Jesus Christ is come from heaven to be joined to His own creation as a Mediator. One cannot be a Mediator if one comes from the people that need the mediation. Jesus fused Himself to His creation thereby making a NEW creation in Himself...thus becoming the firstborn of THAT creation.

You say that "there are hundreds of verses that state that Jesus is Immanuel". Where are all those "hundreds" at ? I am aware of one Scripture at Matthew 1:23, but if I may ask ? Who was the Immanuel spoken of at Isaiah 7:14 and 8:10 and from which Matthew quoted ?

Who was the one meant at Isaiah 7:14 during the days of Ahaz ? Who is the "boy" that "before he knows how to reject the good and the bad, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely" ? Apparently one of Isaiah's sons, with him being called Immanuel as a "sign".(Isa 7:14a) Was he God ? No. Rather, God would not allow Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah, king of the ten tribe kingdom of Israel to put an end to the Davidic line of kings, for Jesus must come through this lineage.(1 Sam 7:12) Hence, God was with the two tribe kingdom of Judah to ensure that the Davidic lineage remained intact.

So why was Jesus called "Immanuel" just as apparently Isaiah's son ? To show that through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God is with him as a "sign". Have you not read Acts 10, whereby it says that "namely, Jesus who was from Nazareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him."(Acts 10:38) Jesus had help from on high, from his Father, Jehovah God, being anointed "with holy spirit and power." Hence, through Jesus "God was with us".

 

[101G]

2 Guestman, GINOLJC

The Father is Spirit so no man has seen the Father, but Jesus is the exact representation of what the Father would be like for the Father Is exactly as His Word whom is Jesus. A body was prepared for Jesus to become flesh to experience and accomplish what no fallen man could. He had the Spirit of His Father which is the bloodline".

so Guestman, are you saying Revelation 1:8 is the Father, and Revelation 1:17:18 is the son?, a Yes or a No will do.

Love and Peace
101G

 

[Episkopos]

The rendering of Acts 20:28 according to the King James Bible is inaccurate, and in which some have tried to use it in support of the trinity. The translators have rearranged the words, from the original reading of "Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit (not holy ghost) has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]", not with "his own blood."

The online interlinear Scripture4all, reads: "ho ekklesia ho theos hos peripoieo dia ho haima ho idios", which literally reads: "the out-called (congregation) of-the God which he-procures thru the blood of-the own (Greek haima ho idios )"

However, at Hebrews 9:12, the apostle Paul uses these Greek words in a different arrangement concerning Jesus, saying: " ho idios haima ", which literally means: " of-the own blood ". This scripture is rendered by the New World Translation as "he (Jesus) entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]." The King James Bible also says "by his own blood (Greek ho idios haima )" here also. The same arrangement of words are also found at Hebrew 13:12.

At both Hebrews 9:12 and 13:12, the King James Bible follows the correct arrangement of words but not at Acts 20:28. Why ? To provide support for the trinity, as if Jesus is God who gave "his own blood".(Acts 20:28, KJV)


Concerning John 10:30, whereby Jesus said that "I and the Father are one", he later clarified that in prayer to his Father: "Also, I have given them (his genuine disciples) the glory you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." He then says: "I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one."(John 17:22, 23)

Hence, Jesus was establishing that these would be in union with each other and with both Jesus and Jehovah God, that his faithful disciples would be as "one", not divided as the churches are. These would have the common goal of seeing to it that God's name of Jehovah is sanctified (Matt 6:9) or brought glory to by following Jesus words to "have love among yourselves".(John 13:34) All around the world, Jehovah's Witnesses are unified, receiving the same "spiritual food" that the "master" Jesus Christ is dispensing through a "faithful and discreet slave".(Matt 24:45)

At Revelation 1:8, it is Jehovah God speaking, for he alone is "Almighty" (Gen 17:1), and in which if a person were to carefully examine verse 8 in the Greek, it can be seen that God's name of Jehovah was supplanted with "Lord" or Greek kyrios, with the Greek reading "Lord the God" or more accurately Jehovah God. At Revelation 1:17, 18, it is Jesus speaking, for the context provides this at Revelation 1:13 as the "son of man" to whom this is applying.

You say that "there are hundreds of verses that state that Jesus is Immanuel". Where are all those "hundreds" at ? I am aware of one Scripture at Matthew 1:23, but if I may ask ? Who was the Immanuel spoken of at Isaiah 7:14 and 8:10 and from which Matthew quoted ?

Who was the one meant at Isaiah 7:14 during the days of Ahaz ? Who is the "boy" that "before he knows how to reject the good and the bad, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely" ? Apparently one of Isaiah's sons, with him being called Immanuel as a "sign".(Isa 7:14a) Was he God ? No. Rather, God would not allow Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah, king of the ten tribe kingdom of Israel to put an end to the Davidic line of kings, for Jesus must come through this lineage.(1 Sam 7:12) Hence, God was with the two tribe kingdom of Judah to ensure that the Davidic lineage remained intact.

So why was Jesus called "Immanuel" just as apparently Isaiah's son ? To show that through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God is with him as a "sign". Have you not read Acts 10, whereby it says that "namely, Jesus who was from Nazareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him."(Acts 10:38) Jesus had help from on high, from his Father, Jehovah God, being anointed "with holy spirit and power." Hence, through Jesus "God was with us".

I don't deny that Jesus was fully human....but you deny He was also fully God. So your way of seeing Jesus is as any Muslim or unconverted person without the Spirit. A simple man cannot help you. Do you expect Moses to help you? What about John the Baptist whom Jesus said...no man more righteous ever lived?

Any old unconverted carnal man can study the bible and come up with a religion based on a flawed understanding. But to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

JW= a carnal every day human understanding + a natural interest in the study (and subversion) of words

 

[101G]

2 Guestman GINOLJC

thanks for your answer, I believe you said At Revelation 1:8, it is Jehovah God speaking, for he alone is "Almighty". and
At Revelation 1:17, 18, it is Jesus speaking, for the context provides this at Revelation 1:13 as the "son of man" to whom this is applying.

apparently Guestman you don't know who the son of man is.
you say Jesus is speaking in Revelation 1:17 & 18. Jesus said here that he is the First and the Last. correct.
Lets see who is the first and the Last. we will use your Bible, (NWT), as well as the KJV and compare them.
(KJV) Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he".
(NWT) Isaiah 41:4 has been active and has done [this], calling out the generations from the start? “I, Jehovah, the First One; and with the last ones I am the same.”
(KJV) Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God".
(NWT ) Isaiah 44:6 This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God"
(KJV) Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last".
(NWT) Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last".
I believe we have a problem Guestman. the one who you say is Jesus the First and the Last is the one who your own bible calls Jehovah. just as the KJV say LORD who is the Almighty. we need to correct this ERROR then.
I ask again, is Jesus the First and the Last or the one whom you call Jehovah.
I'll be waiting for your answer.

Love and Peace
101G

 

[IAmAWitness]

And we certainly have enough trinity deniers here as well. Also, historical creeds are a marvelous way of both affirming what is true of Christianity and making it easy for the most unlearned to recall.

Simply dismissing a reference to a historical creed as "catholic" simply illustrates the speakers own ignorance/bias.

I wouldn't agree that it was an ignorant statement if Excubitor turned out to be Catholic. And I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Meshak got the idea from just one point in excubitor's post.

Post 33 and 37 are of interest to any concerned...

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17547-pleniary-indulgances-theyre-baaack/page-2

For someone who is not a Catholic, he is not doing much to dispel the notion by posting in this manner.

If excubitor is a Catholic he would be doing a service by identifying as such. It's unfair to attack Meshak when it is apparently true to say he is Catholic.

 

[justaname]

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


It seems some here do not know Jesus, unfortunate how they bow to the doctrines of men as opposed to the One Lord and Savior, our Triune God, Jesus Christ. None can come to the Father except through the Son, and if you do not accept the Son as God then you have not received Him.

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Only God is worshipped. Jesus is worshipped. There is no such thing as a "little g." If you hold to that belief, the "little g" theory, then you are a pagan.

All persons of the Trinity are involved in this one passage, Father (voice from heavens,) Son (Jesus) Holy Spirit (dove).

Matthew 3:16-17
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

 

[101G]

Ephesians 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD". but ONE.

is not the Lord that Spirit?, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". and the "S" in Spirit is capitalized.

Love and Peace
101G

 

[williemac]

Hi, everyone: Allow me to share an insight I received in my studies and meditations on this subject.(some years ago)

If you will notice, Jesus while on the earth, talked frequently about His Father. He showed that He and the Father were in a deep and profound relationship. But then, when He prayed that He would be restored to the glory He had with the Father, He was thus restored and is now seated at the right hand of His Father. So we see two beings, in relationship, both eternal and both separately identifiable in scripture. It occurred to me that we do not see the Holy Spirit in this light....or do we?

We are told that the invisible attributes of God can be clearly seen in His creation. I suggest that the first and foremost attribute is that of relationship. God is love.

I feel that He has shown me a dynamic of relationship in nature, that expresses the dynamic of what we have termed the trinity, a man made term that is really not self explanatory at all. But it does present a picture for us.
The dynamic I am referring to is seen in the mixing of the elements. For example: water. It is made from hydrogen and oxygen. These two are separately identifiable, have their own unique properties by themselves, but when combined in relationship in just the right way, become a third and unique thing: water.. that displays properties that neither of the two by themselves have. I could expand on that, but I think it would be unnecessary.

In the same way, when a man and woman join together, it is said that they become one flesh. Here is the dynamic of relationship. Two unique and separate beings, who by themselves have their own set of skills, mindsets, and attributes, combine together in a partnership. This partnership takes on all the advantages of both parties, increasing the potential and as well, is able to bear fruit that neither can do by themselves. Thus a marriage partnership is a separately identifiable dynamic than what either party is by themselves. Hope this is a clear enough picture.

Back to God. It would stand to reason that the creator of all things would exist in a way that expresses the completeness of His nature. He is complete. But being a relationship being, how would this be possible if He was all by Himself? Exactly! the father and Son are both said to be eternal. But what about the Holy Spirit?
I noticed that when Jesus first mentioned the sending of the Holy Spirit, He said something rather curious. John 14:23.."If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him". " We" , being the Father and the Son. But this is fulfilled by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as following verses in context reveal.

What I see is a partnership between two co eternal beings. But the dynamic of relationship is that a third and separately identifiable entity is expressed in this partnership. The lowest number that accurately expresses relationship is not two, but three. Two together becoming a third thing, as it were. Therefore God is the most accurately expressed and known by His creation in the form of three beings, not just one. When we see the Father and Son on the throne, we see the (invisible) Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit dwells in us, the Father and Son dwell in us. This was not taught to me by man. Take it or leave it. It is the way I see it. Blessings, Howie

 

[excubitor]

Obviously this is heresy.
God is one being which is the most fundamental belief of Judaism and Christianity.
All your points about relationship etc. are all valid but are properly expressed in pointing out that God is in 3 persons.
So, one being expressed in 3 persons is correct. The person of the Son proceeding from the person of the Father and the person of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and from the Son.
Unless you believe this Trinitarian expression of the Godhead you are just not a Christian, it is as simple as that.

Hi, everyone: Allow me to share an insight I received in my studies and meditations on this subject.(some years ago)

If you will notice, Jesus while on the earth, talked frequently about His Father. He showed that He and the Father were in a deep and profound relationship. But then, when He prayed that He would be restored to the glory He had with the Father, He was thus restored and is now seated at the right hand of His Father. So we see two beings, in relationship, both eternal and both separately identifiable in scripture. It occurred to me that we do not see the Holy Spirit in this light....or do we?

We are told that the invisible attributes of God can be clearly seen in His creation. I suggest that the first and foremost attribute is that of relationship. God is love.

I feel that He has shown me a dynamic of relationship in nature, that expresses the dynamic of what we have termed the trinity, a man made term that is really not self explanatory at all. But it does present a picture for us.
The dynamic I am referring to is seen in the mixing of the elements. For example: water. It is made from hydrogen and oxygen. These two are separately identifiable, have their own unique properties by themselves, but when combined in relationship in just the right way, become a third and unique thing: water.. that displays properties that neither of the two by themselves have. I could expand on that, but I think it would be unnecessary.

In the same way, when a man and woman join together, it is said that they become one flesh. Here is the dynamic of relationship. Two unique and separate beings, who by themselves have their own set of skills, mindsets, and attributes, combine together in a partnership. This partnership takes on all the advantages of both parties, increasing the potential and as well, is able to bear fruit that neither can do by themselves. Thus a marriage partnership is a separately identifiable dynamic than what either party is by themselves. Hope this is a clear enough picture.

Back to God. It would stand to reason that the creator of all things would exist in a way that expresses the completeness of His nature. He is complete. But being a relationship being, how would this be possible if He was all by Himself? Exactly! the father and Son are both said to be eternal. But what about the Holy Spirit?
I noticed that when Jesus first mentioned the sending of the Holy Spirit, He said something rather curious. John 14:23.."If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him". " We" , being the Father and the Son. But this is fulfilled by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as following verses in context reveal.

What I see is a partnership between two co eternal beings. But the dynamic of relationship is that a third and separately identifiable entity is expressed in this partnership. The lowest number that accurately expresses relationship is not two, but three. Two together becoming a third thing, as it were. Therefore God is the most accurately expressed and known by His creation in the form of three beings, not just one. When we see the Father and Son on the throne, we see the (invisible) Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit dwells in us, the Father and Son dwell in us. This was not taught to me by man. Take it or leave it. It is the way I see it. Blessings, Howie

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Obviously this is heresy.
God is one being which is the most fundamental belief of Judaism and Christianity.
All your points about relationship etc. are all valid but are properly expressed in pointing out that God is in 3 persons.
So, one being expressed in 3 persons is correct. The person of the Son proceeding from the person of the Father and the person of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and from the Son.
Unless you believe this Trinitarian expression of the Godhead you are just not a Christian, it is as simple as that.

Preposterous. Unmitigated arrogance and a stumbling block to the brethren.

 

[Episkopos]

Those who have no spiritual experience and have never walked in Christ in the power of the Spirit have nothing to contribute to the understanding of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Gathering these ignorant ones into one church does not signify anything except that these have chosen a common darkness of understanding.

All this wrangling over (and ignoring of) texts...

The NT in not according to words but it is in power...the power to walk as Jesus walked. Anything else is a subversion of the truth.

 

[101G]

2 Episkopos, GINOLJC

The NT in not according to words but it is in power...the power to walk as Jesus walked. Anything else is a subversion of the truth.

100% on point, Philippians 3:9 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Love and Peace
101G

 

[williemac]

Obviously this is heresy.
God is one being which is the most fundamental belief of Judaism and Christianity.
All your points about relationship etc. are all valid but are properly expressed in pointing out that God is in 3 persons.
So, one being expressed in 3 persons is correct. The person of the Son proceeding from the person of the Father and the person of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and from the Son.
Unless you believe this Trinitarian expression of the Godhead you are just not a Christian, it is as simple as that.

I'm not sure what to make of this reply. I don't personally believe that understanding the trinity is essential for salvation. One can apprehend a relationship in the three persons in scripture, but not necessarily comprehend it. My post was a commentary on the logic of God existing in three persons. Nature shows us how many birds can fly in one flock, many fish in one school, three or more bananas can also be one bunch, etc. A plural of things can also be one of something else. Three persons can be one God. It is not illogical when understood in its dynamic. However, as I said, I don't think understanding it is what God requires in a person for salvation. That is another subject. Blessings, Howie

 

[excubitor]

I'm not sure what to make of this reply. I don't personally believe that understanding the trinity is essential for salvation. One can apprehend a relationship in the three persons in scripture, but not necessarily comprehend it. My post was a commentary on the logic of God existing in three persons. Nature shows us how many birds can fly in one flock, many fish in one school, three or more bananas can also be one bunch, etc. A plural of things can also be one of something else. Three persons can be one God. It is not illogical when understood in its dynamic. However, as I said, I don't think understanding it is what God requires in a person for salvation. That is another subject. Blessings, Howie

You claimed in your previous post that God was not one entity or being but that he was three beings. That is heresy and anyone who believes this is not a Christian.
If your post here is a recanting of your previous post then you have moved from death towards light and life.

I never stated that we had to understand the Trinity. Please show where I said that. I said that we must believe the doctrine of the Trinity. Belief requires an assent to the teaching of the church. To believe we must have a certain rudimentary understanding of what is being taught but we cannot understand fully the vast depths of the mysteries of the Trinity.

Truth 1. God is one
Truth 2. The Word (God) was made flesh by becoming a Son of God called Jesus
Truth 3. In having a Son God is the Father
Truth 4. Christ and the Father have a Spirit. When Christ died he sent his Spirit to dwell with us.
Truth 5. The Father is a person of one substance being God
Truth 6. The Son is a person of the same substance as the Father being God
Truth 7. The Holy Spirit has all the qualities of a person and is therefore a person every bit as much as the Father is a person and the Son is a person and being of the same substance as the Father and the Son being himself also the one God.

Heresy 1. God is three beings or entities
Heresy 2. There are two or three thrones in heaven with two or three gods sitting on them.
Heresy 3. Jesus was just a man or only partly God
Heresy 4. Jesus was a created being
Heresy 5. The Holy Spirit is an impersonal spirit like the New Age life spirit, or an impersonal force like the force in Star Wars.

Call this understanding of the Trinity. No. How can this be understood with the intellect as if we can grasp God. But this is what we believe in the spirit of faith, accepting with simplicity of heart and assenting to the teaching of the church, and adopting the witness of the apostles and the patristic fathers.
And he who willfully disagrees with any of these points is not a Christian but a heretic and to be regarded as anathema

Preposterous. Unmitigated arrogance and a stumbling block to the brethren.

Which brethren? Any who disagrees with me on this point are not my brethren. Anyone associated with any doctrine that disputes the doctrine of the Trinity are heretics and are to be avoided as a plague and scourge of the brethren. It's incredible how we dance around heresies in these last days as if they were harmless little playthings. The Christians of the first centuries knew what they were striving for as they combatted Arianism and Nestorianism and all the other ism's that assualted the church in those early centuries. Our church and our gospel survived because of their mighty defence of the faith. Many even paying with their lives to defend the truth of the gospel. Shall we undo all of their good work by allowing the devil back in to our church to spread about his lies and deceits. God forbid.

My words are not my own but are expressions of church doctrine found in the Apostles creed, the Nicene Creed. I suggest that everbody read the Athanasius creed which is without doubt the clearest and most correct and glorious expression of the Trinity that can be found in any church writing. Endorsed by the church in the west for 1500 years this creed excludes completely all the ancient heresies, many of which are making a comeback in most modern christian churches.

This creed was endorsed in all the early protestant churches and found their expression in the various protestant confessions including including the Augsburg Confession, the Formula of Concord, the Second Helvetic Confession, the Belgic Confession, the Bohemian Confession and the Thirty-nine Articles.

To see so many protestants falling away from this teaching that was once the bedrock of their faith is distressing almost beyond compare and shows how far many protestants have slid from the beliefs they once held. So when I say "Unless you believe this Trinitarian expression of the Godhead you are just not a Christian, it is as simple as that." it is not me speaking but all of those early confessions and in particular the Athanasius creed which states in conclusion.
"This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

 

[101G]

2 excubitor. GINOLJC

I was reading your list, and a couple of them left questions. maybe I'm reading the list wrong on a few. but please clarify. not for an argument, but for clarity
Truth 1. God is one. [true, if one person]
Truth 2. The Word (God) was made flesh by becoming a Son of God called Jesus [true]

Truth 3. In having a Son God is the Father [I have a question on this one. if the Holy Spirit conceive the flesh in Mary, technically, according to the definition of a father is not the one called the Holy Spirit is the Father?]

Truth 4. Christ and the Father have a Spirit. When Christ died he sent his Spirit to dwell with us. [ I have a question on this one also, is not the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God the same Spirits, see Roman 8:9, or is there two Spirits]

Truth 5. The Father is a person of one substance being God
Truth 6. The Son is a person of the same substance as the Father being God
[are you saying that this is two separate person?]

Truth 7. The Holy Spirit has all the qualities of a person and is therefore a person every bit as much as the Father is a person and the Son is a person and being of the same substance as the Father and the Son being himself also the one God. {I thought the Holy Spirit is God?}

Heresy 1. God is three beings or entities [wait a minute, don't this conflict 5,6,& 7 above?] or is the definition of a person differ from a being or entities.]
Heresy 2. There are two or three thrones in heaven with two or three gods sitting on them. [true]
Heresy 3. Jesus was just a man or only partly God [true]
Heresy 4. Jesus was a created being [true 2X] now that is surely Heresy
Heresy 5. The Holy Spirit is an impersonal spirit like the New Age life spirit, or an impersonal force like the force in Star Wars.[true 2X]

thanks in advance,

Love and Peace
101G

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You claimed in your previous post that God was not one entity or being but that he was three beings. That is heresy and anyone who believes this is not a Christian.

The Nicene creed was a reactionary response to a perceived threat that served a purpose for a specific time. But the trinity defined therein is by no means the most accurate depiction of GOD. I find it mind-bogglingly funny that people can take offense at GOD being called 3 beings, while insisting that GOD is 3 persons.

 

[williemac]

Excubitor: It is never advisable to announce the perdition of someone. That is not our place, and certainly not your mandate from the Lord to announce that a perfect stranger to you is not a Christian.

That being said, I also would like to know the answer to what 101g asked you in reply #57. You seem to have a bit of confusion. You say one God is also three persons. That is precisely what I have been saying. As well, the remark in reply #58 is also well said. I had a chuckle from it, myself. You call it heresy to say that one God is three beings, but insist that one God is three persons. ...huh? Stephen saw heaven opened up and saw the Son standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:56). Would you have stoned him also?

 

[Harry3142]

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Colossians 1:15-20,NIV)

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 1:5-11,NIV)

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Do you want to approach the throne of God and survive? If so, then you must approach it having been cleansed of your sins by the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, our Lord and saviour. He is our high priest (Hebrews 9:1-10:14), and it is only through accepting his atoning sacrifice as the supreme atonement for our sins that any of us has assurance of those sins no longer condemning us. Through his suffering and death he cleansed all of us of our sins through the shedding of his blood, and removed all of our sins from us through accepting them on his own head. And then by his bodily resurrection he destroyed the supreme consequence of sin, namely, death itself. So through Christ's actions, rather than our own, God has seen fit to give us the righteousness as a gift which we could never earn as a salary (Romans 3:19-5:10).