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101G said:2 Episkopos, Greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.
true, is that one PERSON, or three PERSON?
Love and Peace
101G
The rendering of Acts 20:28 according to the King James Bible is inaccurate, and in which some have tried to use it in support of the trinity. The translators have rearranged the words, from the original reading of "Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit (not holy ghost) has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]", not with "his own blood."afaithfulone4u said:Guestman,
The Father is Spirit so no man has seen the Father, but Jesus is the exact representation of what the Father would be like for the Father Is exactly as His Word whom is Jesus. A body was prepared for Jesus to become flesh to experience and accomplish what no fallen man could. He had the Spirit of His Father which is the bloodline. He is the Seed of God which is to say the Word of God that impregnates our hearts to transform us into the children of God. The blood of a child comes only from the father of a child and had Jesus been born of Joseph's seed/bloodline he would have be born into sin just as we.
Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
KJV
Concerning John 10:30, whereby Jesus said that "I and the Father are one", he later clarified that in prayer to his Father: "Also, I have given them (his genuine disciples) the glory you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." He then says: "I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one."(John 17:22, 23)101G said:to Guestman, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus the Christ.
"I and the Father are one?"
this scripture is true. the Father and the Son is ONE Spirit. to see it plainly, since you said that you're a Jehovah Witness? I ask you,
#1. Revelation 1:8 is this the Father or the Son?, your answer please.
#2. Revelation 1:17 & 18 is this the Father or the Son?, your answer please.
once you answer these question then one will know if the Father and the Son are ONE or not.
and to the trinitarians of this board. same greeting, true, God is with us, "Emmanuel". you say the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit is ONE God. if these three Person are one God, I ask, was it not the Holy Spirit who conceive the Child in Mary's womb. so by definition of the word Father, the Holy Spirit is the ONLY ONE who hold the title "Father" to the child that was conceive in the virgin Mary. question, since the Holy Spirit by definition is the Father to that child, then the title Father by definition is the Holy Spirit. with that (the title Father, belong to the Holy Spirit), this leave only two person, according to your doctrine of the trinity. for the title Father and Holy Spirit is one, and the SAME PERSON. I'll stop here for any responses to both question.
Love and Peace
101G.
You say that "there are hundreds of verses that state that Jesus is Immanuel". Where are all those "hundreds" at ? I am aware of one Scripture at Matthew 1:23, but if I may ask ? Who was the Immanuel spoken of at Isaiah 7:14 and 8:10 and from which Matthew quoted ?Episkopos said:You are confused I think between being "one" flesh" and one in essence. Jesus didn't marry His Father. He proceeds from Him...from His essence. Otherwise Jesus is just some created prophet like the Muslims believe He is.
A person cannot be Christian and deny the Son is part of God. It takes the blindness of an unbeliever to not see this.
Jesus and the Father are One.... a part of Elohim (plural). The Father is greater because He is MORE than Jesus Christ. He is bigger.... just like any Son compared to any Father. But He is the same as the Father in the way that a son is "a chip off the old block."
There are hundreds of verses that state that Jesus is Immanuel...GOD with us. Without the divinity of Christ, we would all be dead in our sins...just like those who deny Christ are to this point in time.
Jesus Christ is come from heaven to be joined to His own creation as a Mediator. One cannot be a Mediator if one comes from the people that need the mediation. Jesus fused Himself to His creation thereby making a NEW creation in Himself...thus becoming the firstborn of THAT creation.
Guestman said:The rendering of Acts 20:28 according to the King James Bible is inaccurate, and in which some have tried to use it in support of the trinity. The translators have rearranged the words, from the original reading of "Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit (not holy ghost) has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]", not with "his own blood."
The online interlinear Scripture4all, reads: "ho ekklesia ho theos hos peripoieo dia ho haima ho idios", which literally reads: "the out-called (congregation) of-the God which he-procures thru the blood of-the own (Greek haima ho idios )"
However, at Hebrews 9:12, the apostle Paul uses these Greek words in a different arrangement concerning Jesus, saying: " ho idios haima ", which literally means: " of-the own blood ". This scripture is rendered by the New World Translation as "he (Jesus) entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]." The King James Bible also says "by his own blood (Greek ho idios haima )" here also. The same arrangement of words are also found at Hebrew 13:12.
At both Hebrews 9:12 and 13:12, the King James Bible follows the correct arrangement of words but not at Acts 20:28. Why ? To provide support for the trinity, as if Jesus is God who gave "his own blood".(Acts 20:28, KJV)
Concerning John 10:30, whereby Jesus said that "I and the Father are one", he later clarified that in prayer to his Father: "Also, I have given them (his genuine disciples) the glory you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." He then says: "I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one."(John 17:22, 23)
Hence, Jesus was establishing that these would be in union with each other and with both Jesus and Jehovah God, that his faithful disciples would be as "one", not divided as the churches are. These would have the common goal of seeing to it that God's name of Jehovah is sanctified (Matt 6:9) or brought glory to by following Jesus words to "have love among yourselves".(John 13:34) All around the world, Jehovah's Witnesses are unified, receiving the same "spiritual food" that the "master" Jesus Christ is dispensing through a "faithful and discreet slave".(Matt 24:45)
At Revelation 1:8, it is Jehovah God speaking, for he alone is "Almighty" (Gen 17:1), and in which if a person were to carefully examine verse 8 in the Greek, it can be seen that God's name of Jehovah was supplanted with "Lord" or Greek kyrios, with the Greek reading "Lord the God" or more accurately Jehovah God. At Revelation 1:17, 18, it is Jesus speaking, for the context provides this at Revelation 1:13 as the "son of man" to whom this is applying.
You say that "there are hundreds of verses that state that Jesus is Immanuel". Where are all those "hundreds" at ? I am aware of one Scripture at Matthew 1:23, but if I may ask ? Who was the Immanuel spoken of at Isaiah 7:14 and 8:10 and from which Matthew quoted ?
Who was the one meant at Isaiah 7:14 during the days of Ahaz ? Who is the "boy" that "before he knows how to reject the good and the bad, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely" ? Apparently one of Isaiah's sons, with him being called Immanuel as a "sign".(Isa 7:14a) Was he God ? No. Rather, God would not allow Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah, king of the ten tribe kingdom of Israel to put an end to the Davidic line of kings, for Jesus must come through this lineage.(1 Sam 7:12) Hence, God was with the two tribe kingdom of Judah to ensure that the Davidic lineage remained intact.
So why was Jesus called "Immanuel" just as apparently Isaiah's son ? To show that through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God is with him as a "sign". Have you not read Acts 10, whereby it says that "namely, Jesus who was from Nazareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him."(Acts 10:38) Jesus had help from on high, from his Father, Jehovah God, being anointed "with holy spirit and power." Hence, through Jesus "God was with us".
I wouldn't agree that it was an ignorant statement if Excubitor turned out to be Catholic. And I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Meshak got the idea from just one point in excubitor's post.BiggAndyy said:And we certainly have enough trinity deniers here as well. Also, historical creeds are a marvelous way of both affirming what is true of Christianity and making it easy for the most unlearned to recall.
Simply dismissing a reference to a historical creed as "catholic" simply illustrates the speakers own ignorance/bias.
williemac said:Hi, everyone: Allow me to share an insight I received in my studies and meditations on this subject.(some years ago)
If you will notice, Jesus while on the earth, talked frequently about His Father. He showed that He and the Father were in a deep and profound relationship. But then, when He prayed that He would be restored to the glory He had with the Father, He was thus restored and is now seated at the right hand of His Father. So we see two beings, in relationship, both eternal and both separately identifiable in scripture. It occurred to me that we do not see the Holy Spirit in this light....or do we?
We are told that the invisible attributes of God can be clearly seen in His creation. I suggest that the first and foremost attribute is that of relationship. God is love.
I feel that He has shown me a dynamic of relationship in nature, that expresses the dynamic of what we have termed the trinity, a man made term that is really not self explanatory at all. But it does present a picture for us.
The dynamic I am referring to is seen in the mixing of the elements. For example: water. It is made from hydrogen and oxygen. These two are separately identifiable, have their own unique properties by themselves, but when combined in relationship in just the right way, become a third and unique thing: water.. that displays properties that neither of the two by themselves have. I could expand on that, but I think it would be unnecessary.
In the same way, when a man and woman join together, it is said that they become one flesh. Here is the dynamic of relationship. Two unique and separate beings, who by themselves have their own set of skills, mindsets, and attributes, combine together in a partnership. This partnership takes on all the advantages of both parties, increasing the potential and as well, is able to bear fruit that neither can do by themselves. Thus a marriage partnership is a separately identifiable dynamic than what either party is by themselves. Hope this is a clear enough picture.
Back to God. It would stand to reason that the creator of all things would exist in a way that expresses the completeness of His nature. He is complete. But being a relationship being, how would this be possible if He was all by Himself? Exactly! the father and Son are both said to be eternal. But what about the Holy Spirit?
I noticed that when Jesus first mentioned the sending of the Holy Spirit, He said something rather curious. John 14:23.."If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him". " We" , being the Father and the Son. But this is fulfilled by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as following verses in context reveal.
What I see is a partnership between two co eternal beings. But the dynamic of relationship is that a third and separately identifiable entity is expressed in this partnership. The lowest number that accurately expresses relationship is not two, but three. Two together becoming a third thing, as it were. Therefore God is the most accurately expressed and known by His creation in the form of three beings, not just one. When we see the Father and Son on the throne, we see the (invisible) Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit dwells in us, the Father and Son dwell in us. This was not taught to me by man. Take it or leave it. It is the way I see it. Blessings, Howie
Preposterous. Unmitigated arrogance and a stumbling block to the brethren.excubitor said:Obviously this is heresy.
God is one being which is the most fundamental belief of Judaism and Christianity.
All your points about relationship etc. are all valid but are properly expressed in pointing out that God is in 3 persons.
So, one being expressed in 3 persons is correct. The person of the Son proceeding from the person of the Father and the person of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and from the Son.
Unless you believe this Trinitarian expression of the Godhead you are just not a Christian, it is as simple as that.
I'm not sure what to make of this reply. I don't personally believe that understanding the trinity is essential for salvation. One can apprehend a relationship in the three persons in scripture, but not necessarily comprehend it. My post was a commentary on the logic of God existing in three persons. Nature shows us how many birds can fly in one flock, many fish in one school, three or more bananas can also be one bunch, etc. A plural of things can also be one of something else. Three persons can be one God. It is not illogical when understood in its dynamic. However, as I said, I don't think understanding it is what God requires in a person for salvation. That is another subject. Blessings, Howieexcubitor said:Obviously this is heresy.
God is one being which is the most fundamental belief of Judaism and Christianity.
All your points about relationship etc. are all valid but are properly expressed in pointing out that God is in 3 persons.
So, one being expressed in 3 persons is correct. The person of the Son proceeding from the person of the Father and the person of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and from the Son.
Unless you believe this Trinitarian expression of the Godhead you are just not a Christian, it is as simple as that.
You claimed in your previous post that God was not one entity or being but that he was three beings. That is heresy and anyone who believes this is not a Christian.williemac said:I'm not sure what to make of this reply. I don't personally believe that understanding the trinity is essential for salvation. One can apprehend a relationship in the three persons in scripture, but not necessarily comprehend it. My post was a commentary on the logic of God existing in three persons. Nature shows us how many birds can fly in one flock, many fish in one school, three or more bananas can also be one bunch, etc. A plural of things can also be one of something else. Three persons can be one God. It is not illogical when understood in its dynamic. However, as I said, I don't think understanding it is what God requires in a person for salvation. That is another subject. Blessings, Howie
Which brethren? Any who disagrees with me on this point are not my brethren. Anyone associated with any doctrine that disputes the doctrine of the Trinity are heretics and are to be avoided as a plague and scourge of the brethren. It's incredible how we dance around heresies in these last days as if they were harmless little playthings. The Christians of the first centuries knew what they were striving for as they combatted Arianism and Nestorianism and all the other ism's that assualted the church in those early centuries. Our church and our gospel survived because of their mighty defence of the faith. Many even paying with their lives to defend the truth of the gospel. Shall we undo all of their good work by allowing the devil back in to our church to spread about his lies and deceits. God forbid.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:Preposterous. Unmitigated arrogance and a stumbling block to the brethren.
The Nicene creed was a reactionary response to a perceived threat that served a purpose for a specific time. But the trinity defined therein is by no means the most accurate depiction of GOD. I find it mind-bogglingly funny that people can take offense at GOD being called 3 beings, while insisting that GOD is 3 persons.excubitor said:You claimed in your previous post that God was not one entity or being but that he was three beings. That is heresy and anyone who believes this is not a Christian.