True meanings of: God's wrath; Not knowing the day or the hour;

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NewMusic

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Hello @NewMusic , welcome here.
Your post holds much good information, I am not a pre tribber either.
One thing you had written leads me to believe that you think there is only ONE man of sin coming, not the A.C. and his sidekick the F.P.
Correct me there if I misread.
This is of interest to me as, most Christians are looking for the two of them. Something I had read awhile back led me to believe it will be just ONE man who will come on the worlds stage and deceive many.
God bless

Correct, Nancy.

As I just proved to Curtis, and again, he does not supply scripture to show his position.

If the "antichrist" were one person, and the false prophet another (and now we're into a whole new novel that movies could be made from! LOL) show us from scripture. Because according to Curtis, there is 1) Satan, 2) a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, 3) an "antichrist", and 4) a false prophet.
 
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NewMusic

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I know that the mark is given for 42 months, 3.5 years, which is what makes that time period the great tribulation, and thus anyone seen by John in heaven who came out of the great tribulation are martyrs who had their heads cut off for refusing the mark.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And by the way Curtis, the noun marker "the" that they have translated into English from the Greek, is not in the Aramaic. And so the Greek to English verse reads thus:

Rev 7:14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But in the Aramaic manuscripts, this is what is written

Rev 7:14 ... "These are they who have come out of great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And it makes far more sense when you read the Aramaic/English because those standing before the throne would include all the saints throughout history who have suffered great tribulation.
 
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NewMusic

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Oh Curtis... another thing.

The Jews asked John the Baptist if he was "the prophet", meaning the Christ. John told them "no".

The reason you need to learn why this wording about "the prophet" is important stems from Moses who told Israel that God would raise up another prophet like himself (Deuteronomy 18:15, and identified as Jesus by the Apostles in Acts 3:22).

So the "false prophet" is the false messiah.

The true prophet was/is Jesus the Christ.
 

Curtis

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Not this thread, but a different one I will create later tonight, will outline clearly the true teaching of Christ regarding the TIMING of this thing called the "rapture". Look for it in a few hours from now.


So God's wrath and the devil's wrath at the same time?

Hmmmm... interesting.

Then we have

Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Now that is clear as day. We are told in no uncertain terms that the wrath of God is the lake of fire!

So what do we make of the 7 bowls of wrath during the Great Tribulation?

Well, we are also told to interpret those particular wraths as plagues. This from chapter 15 which precedes chapter 16, i.e. the bowls of wrath. Read:

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

So up to this point, it would
seem that there is conflicting evidence on the subject on the wrath of God. And how do we interpret the verses at the top of this page which says that the saved will escape the wrath of God, but the wicked will not be spared?

Easy. With more comprehensive bible knowledge now outlined on the subject (above), we can now use logic/deduction, along with a couple more verses to illustrate.

* Do you really think that all the evil and wicked men of the past 6000 years have escaped the wrath of God because they died before the Great Tribulation???

Please think on those words. Really. Read that point again and think about it.

The Great Tribulation only lasts a mere 3½ years. As a percentage of man's history, that is only 3.5 divided by 6000 which equals .0005833333, or .0583% of all history of man. So if you think the wrath of God is the Great Tribulation, then basically you believe that ALL THE WICKED MEN since Cain killed Abel and throughout all history (and let us not forget those who murdered the prophets, those who murdered Jesus and spit on Him, those who burned the Christians alive, or fed them to hungry lions, or the evil Spanish inquisition, Stalin, Mao, Castro, or just plain rapists, etc.),, get a free pass and do not suffer God's wrath. Because they died before the great tribulation. Is that what you really believe?

You can see immediately that such an interpretation is bogus.

No, all evil, unrepented men and women throughout history will indeed suffer the wrath of God, and since almost all men and women (in excess of 99% of all humanity since Adam) did not experience the near future Great Tribulation, we know that the true meaning of escaping the wrath of God (as the opening verses I pasted above) means the righteous escape the
Lake of Fire, not the plagues of Revelation 16.

= = = = = = =

The First Beast

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And by the way Curtis, the noun marker "the" that they have translated into English from the Greek, is not in the Aramaic. And so the Greek to English verse reads thus:

Rev 7:14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But in the Aramaic manuscripts, this is what is written

Rev 7:14 ... "These are they who have come out of great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And it makes far more sense when you read the Aramaic/English because those standing before the throne would include all the saints who have suffered great tribulation.

There’s only one great tribulation, and it’s 42 months long - whether it says they came out of the great tribulation or out of great tribulation.
 

NewMusic

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The First Beast

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

There’s only one great tribulation, and it’s 42 months long - whether it says they came out of the great tribulation or out of great tribulation.

Why is it you are having trouble over this?

Yes, that 1st beast you just quoted is an organization (having 7 heads and 10 horns). Ok. Yes, we all acknowledge that.

But the 2nd beast in that chapter.... is...... ?

You see, Curtis, if you want to call the 2nd beast the antichrist, it's okay. He is anti (against) Christ.

I was just helping people to understand that Hollywood and those who have not studied well, call the man of lawlessness the "antichrist", but the bible accurately identifies his title as the "false prophet" (who of course is ANTI Christ, along with all people in the world who deny Jesus and the Father, and that Jesus has come in the flesh, and the other verses I supplied in post #52). Read post #63 that I just wrote for you, above.
 
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Curtis

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Oh Curtis... another thing.

The Jews asked John the Baptist if he was "the prophet", meaning the Christ. John told them "no".

The reason you need to learn why this wording about "the prophet" is important stems from Moses who told Israel that God would raise up another prophet like himself (Deuteronomy 18:15, and identified as Jesus by the Apostles in Acts 3:22).

So the "false prophet" is the false messiah.

The true prophet was/is Jesus the Christ.

Try reading the text. They asked John if he was the prophet Elijah.

Moses is a type of Christ, which doesn’t change the fact that the false prophet is not the beast called the antichrist.

There are two beasts, to answer your prior claim - the first beast comes from the sea, the second beast out of the earth, out of the abyss:

The First Beast

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The Second Beast

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

More on the first beast, out of the sea:

And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea: From the place identified with evil and chaos and resisting God, a beast comes forth. The ancient Greek word translated beast here has the idea of a wild, dangerous animal. Because John calls him a beast and not a dragon (as in Rev 12:3), this creature represents someone distinct from Satan who was represented by the dragon (Rev 12:9).

Having seven heads and ten horns: Though this beast is distinct from the dragon of Revelation 12, he is still closely identified with him. He is not the dragon, but he is like him, because the dragon also had seven heads and ten horns (Rev 11:3).

All the indications in Revelation 13 are that the beast is a man, a human individual, though he is closely identified with his world-dominating government.

i. “The Beast is worshipped as a god; but people never worship an empire as such; neither do they make a succession of emperors into an object of religious devotion. The paying of divine homage to kings has been a common thing in the world’s history, but it has always been rendered to individuals.” (Seiss)

ii. An image is set up of the beast, and the whole world is commanded to worship it. How can one set up an image of an empire or a government? This hasn’t been done in the past, but men have often bowed down to an image of a political ruler.

iii. “This Beast also has a proper name - a name expressive of a particular number, and that number ‘a number of a man;’ which cannot be conceived except on the idea of an individual person.” (Seiss)

iv. “This beast is finally damned. He goes to perdition, into the lake of fire, where he continues to exist and suffer, after passing from this earthly scene (Rev 17:11; Rev 20:10), which cannot be true of systems of government.” (Seiss)

The antichrist is also called the son of perdition (2Th 2:3), as was Judas (Joh 17:12). Judas was a man, not a system or a government, so it follows that the antichrist will also be a man, not a system or a government. (Seiss)

More on the second beast:

Then I saw another beast: This creature represents someone like the beast rising from the sea, because the same word beast is used to describe them both. At the same time, this beast is different.

i. They are different in origin, because one comes out of the sea, the other out of the earth.

ii. They are different in rank, because the second is subordinate to the first (causes the earth . . . to worship the first beast, Rev 13:12)

iii. They are different in appearance, because the second has a mild, “lamb-like” appearance.

b. And he had two horns like a lamb: The two horns may express the fact that this beast has authority in two realms, such as religious and political authority. Or, he may have two horns simply because that’s how many horns lambs have (two horns like a lamb).

c. Spoke like a dragon: Despite his lamb-like appearance, the message of the second beast is the same as the message of the first beast.

i. This second beast is called the false prophet (Rev 16:13; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10), as someone distinct from the first beast (the Antichrist) and the dragon (Satan).

ii. With the dragon, the beast rising from the sea, and the beast rising from the land we have an unholy trinity. The dragon is the anti-Father, the beast rising from the sea is the anti-Christ, and the beast rising from the land is the anti-Holy Spirit.

2. (Rev 13:12-15) The second beast’s “job description.”

And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

a. He exercises all the authority of the first beast: The beast rising from the earth is essentially a Satanic prophet, who leads the world to worship the beast and the dragon.

He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed: The beast rising from the earth will use a deceptive, animated image as the focus point of the worship of the beast.

There are two separate beasts.
 

NewMusic

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Try reading the text. They asked John if he was the prophet Elijah.

How about you try reading the text.

John 1:21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No."

I'm done corresponding with you. You are incapable of learning and this grieves me.
 

Curtis

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Yes, that 1st beast you just quoted is an organization (having 7 heads and 10 horns). Ok. Yes, we all acknowledge that.

The first beast is a man, not a system. He runs a system, he is not the system.

He arises out of the sea, which represents the sea of humanity.

All the indications in Revelation 13 are that the beast is a man, a human individual, though he is closely identified with his world-dominating government.

i. “The Beast is worshipped as a god; but people never worship an empire as such; neither do they make a succession of emperors into an object of religious devotion. The paying of divine homage to kings has been a common thing in the world’s history, but it has always been rendered to individuals.” (Seiss)

ii. An image is set up of the beast, and the whole world is commanded to worship it. How can one set up an image of an empire or a government? This hasn’t been done in the past, but men have often bowed down to an image of a political ruler.

iii. “This Beast also has a proper name - a name expressive of a particular number, and that number ‘a number of a man;’ 666 which cannot be conceived except on the idea of an individual person.” (Seiss)

iv. “This beast is finally damned. He goes to perdition, into the lake of fire, where he continues to exist and suffer, after passing from this earthly scene (Rev 17:11; Rev 20:10), which cannot be true of systems of government.” (Seiss)

v. The antichrist is also called the son of perdition (2Th 2:3), as was Judas (Joh 17:12). Judas was a man, not a system or a government, so it follows that the antichrist will also be a man, not a system or a government. (Seiss)

vi. With all this in mind, we agree with Seiss: “We would therefore greatly err from the Scriptures, as well as from the unanimous conviction and teaching of the early Church, were we to fail to recognize this Beast as a real person, though one in whom the political power of the world is finally concentrated and represented.”
 

Curtis

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How about you try reading the text.

John 1:21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No."

I'm done corresponding with you. You are incapable of learning and this grieves me.
The prophet Elijah - you claimed they asked him if he was Jesus.

Which is still irrelevant ton the fact there are two beasts that are two men, one of whom is possessed by Satan mid trib.
 

NewMusic

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The first beast is a man, not a system.

Curtis, why does the bible then say that this "man" has 7 heads and 10 horns?

iv. “This beast is finally damned. He goes to perdition, into the lake of fire, where he continues to exist and suffer, after passing from this earthly scene (Rev 17:11; Rev 20:10), which cannot be true of systems of government.” (Seiss)

Seiss is wrong. All those in the 1st beast (a great number) are in fact damned. Seiss does not provide a reason why it cannot be a large number of people. Seiss just proclaims that it cannot be as though his declaration cannot be wrong? Seiss is wrong.
 

Curtis

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Simple.

Is Satan a fallen archangel or is Satan a political or military system?

After all he has multiple heads, horns, and crowns, so he can’t possibly be a being, using your same logic about the beast:

Revelation 12:3 (KJV)

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

In Biblical imagery horns express strength and power. A bull with two horns is powerful creature, but a beast with ten horns has that much more power - just like the dragon of Rev 12:3. Is

And on his horns ten crowns: There is something different about the beast compared to the dragon of Rev 12:3, who had seven diadems on his heads. The seven crowns of the dragon expressed his strength and power, because seven is a number associated with strength and completeness. The ten crowns of the beast express his rule over a group of ten nations.

It’s very clear that beast is a ruler over political and military systems, as I already proved earlier.
 

NewMusic

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Simple.

Is Satan a fallen archangel or is Satan a political or military system?

After all he has multiple heads, horns, and crowns, so he can’t possibly be a being, using your same logic about the beast:

Revelation 12:3 (KJV)

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

In Biblical imagery horns express strength and power. A bull with two horns is powerful creature, but a beast with ten horns has that much more power - just like the dragon of Rev 12:3. Is

And on his horns ten crowns: There is something different about the beast compared to the dragon of Rev 12:3, who had seven diadems on his heads. The seven crowns of the dragon expressed his strength and power, because seven is a number associated with strength and completeness. The ten crowns of the beast express his rule over a group of ten nations.

It’s very clear that beast is a ruler over political and military systems, as I already proved earlier.


Let's see. So you are on record as having said that the 7-headed beast w/10 horns is NOT a system or organization, but a man, and now you are contradicting yourself saying that it is a man AND a political and military system.

I guess you and your commentaries (Seiss is it?) cannot make up your minds.

And so when the beast is thrown alive into the lake of fire (You remember! This very one with the 7 heads and 10 horns that you now say represents a political and military system), your point iv. remember? The one you and Seiss declared could not be a system of governments:

iv. “This beast is finally damned. He goes to perdition, into the lake of fire, where he continues to exist and suffer, after passing from this earthly scene (Rev 17:11; Rev 20:10), which cannot be true of systems of government.” (Seiss)


Which leg do you wish to stand on, Curtis? Cuz it's painfully obvious you cannot make up your mind.

I said the 1st beast of Revelation 13 is NOT the "antichrist", but an organization. You refused that, but now you are contradicting yourself (and Seiss!).
 
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Truth7t7

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So those of the 'seed' of Israel of Jacob's offspring were NOT... of just one race???

You might want to back off on this one, as political correctness is the attitude of the day with wanting to make the original seed of Jacob's children as if they were made up of all the races of man.


The meaning of the word "bastard" in the Hebrew actually means one of mixed race (mamzer)...

Deut 23:2
2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
KJV
You speak as if your ignorant of the teachings found in Anglo/British Israelism

Perhaps a little study will do you good?
 

Stumpmaster

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The Seven Headed Beast Metaphor depicts the accumulated imperial state of unregenerate humanity which has opposed God's People through history.

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Davy

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You speak as if your ignorant of the teachings found in Anglo/British Israelism

Perhaps a little study will do you good?

Oh, I well know what that's about, and I also know about those who try to smear any history about the migrations of the ten northern tribes with their propaganda. The fact of the matter is they don't know what they're talking about. And those of them that do know, try to act like it's a taboo subject like UFO's or something. Really stupid.

Translation From The Latin on the National Records of Scotland website. Declaration of Arbroath (Scottish declaration in 1300's):

"Most Holy Father, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find
that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread
renown. It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the
Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage
peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence
it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its
home in the west where it still lives today.
The Britons it first drove out, the Picts it
utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes
and the English, it took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts;
and, as the histories of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all servitude
ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of
their own royal stock, the line unbroken by a single foreigner.

The high qualities and merits of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, shine forth clearly enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith. Nor did He wish them to be confirmed in that faith by merely anyone but by the first of His Apostles - by calling, though second or third in rank - the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter’s brother, and desired him to keep them under his protection as their patron for ever."
(from The Declaration of Arbroath | National Records of Scotland)
 

Truth7t7

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Oh, I well know what that's about, and I also know about those who try to smear any history about the migrations of the ten northern tribes with their propaganda. The fact of the matter is they don't know what they're talking about. And those of them that do know, try to act like it's a taboo subject like UFO's or something. Really stupid.

Translation From The Latin on the National Records of Scotland website. Declaration of Arbroath (Scottish declaration in 1300's):

"Most Holy Father, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find
that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread
renown. It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the
Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage
peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence
it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its
home in the west where it still lives today.
The Britons it first drove out, the Picts it
utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes
and the English, it took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts;
and, as the histories of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all servitude
ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of
their own royal stock, the line unbroken by a single foreigner.

The high qualities and merits of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, shine forth clearly enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith. Nor did He wish them to be confirmed in that faith by merely anyone but by the first of His Apostles - by calling, though second or third in rank - the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter’s brother, and desired him to keep them under his protection as their patron for ever."
(from The Declaration of Arbroath | National Records of Scotland)
Sounds like your closely related?
 

Davy

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Oh, I well know what that's about, and I also know about those who try to smear any history about the migrations of the ten northern tribes with their propaganda. The fact of the matter is they don't know what they're talking about. And those of them that do know, try to act like it's a taboo subject like UFO's or something. Really stupid.

Translation From The Latin on the National Records of Scotland website. Declaration of Arbroath (Scottish declaration in 1300's):

"Most Holy Father, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find
that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread
renown. It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the
Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage
peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence
it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its
home in the west where it still lives today.
The Britons it first drove out, the Picts it
utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes
and the English, it took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts;
and, as the histories of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all servitude
ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of
their own royal stock, the line unbroken by a single foreigner.

The high qualities and merits of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, shine forth clearly enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith. Nor did He wish them to be confirmed in that faith by merely anyone but by the first of His Apostles - by calling, though second or third in rank - the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter’s brother, and desired him to keep them under his protection as their patron for ever."
(from The Declaration of Arbroath | National Records of Scotland)

A pastor in Scotland once sent me a news article from an Scottish newspaper about a DNA study done. One of the things the Anglo-Saxons claim is that they are a different race of people than the Celts. What was discovered though, was that their DNA was of the same root stock as the Welsh, Danes, Celts, etc. This fits secular history too, because the field of Anthropology knows much history about the Celtic and Scythian tribes. They sprang from the Cimmerians ('C' pronounced like a 'K', just like the word Celt). What Anthropologists can't figure out though is, they don't know the point of origin where the Cimmerian and Scythian tribes migrated into Asia Minor and Europe from. They just know they migrated from the East.
 

Truth7t7

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A pastor in Scotland once sent me a news article from an Scottish newspaper about a DNA study done. One of the things the Anglo-Saxons claim is that they are a different race of people than the Celts. What was discovered though, was that their DNA was of the same root stock as the Welsh, Danes, Celts, etc. This fits secular history too, because the field of Anthropology knows much history about the Celtic and Scythian tribes. They sprang from the Cimmerians ('C' pronounced like a 'K', just like the word Celt). What Anthropologists can't figure out though is, they don't know the point of origin where the Cimmerian and Scythian tribes migrated into Asia Minor and Europe from. They just know they migrated from the East.
Gods not into the race of a person, but the faith of a person, and that being in the shed blood upon calvary, from all nations and races
 

Davy

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Feb 11, 2018
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Gods not into the race of a person, but the faith of a person, and that being in the shed blood upon calvary, from all nations and races

So why did Lord Jesus promise to His 12 Apostles to sit upon 12 thrones judging over the 12 tribes in His future Kingdom? (Matthew 19:27-28)

Careful who you listen to. God's choosing and election is without repentance, like Apostle Paul said in Romans 11.