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True meanings of: God's wrath; Not knowing the day or the hour;

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by NewMusic, Sep 14, 2021 at 9:53 PM.

  1. NewMusic

    NewMusic New Member

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    Not this thread, but a different one I will create later tonight, will outline clearly the true teaching of Christ regarding the TIMING of this thing called the "rapture". Look for it in a few hours from now.

    Meanwhile, there are a couple of things that Pre-Trib believers hang a lot of their conclusions on based on a deduction that they misunderstand. I will post a couple of those now.

    First a sample of verses using the word wrath:

    John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

    Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

    1Thess 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    1Thess 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

    Now from those verses, and a few others that are similar, and the fact that there are 7 bowls of wrath identified in Revelation chapter 16, it's easy to conclude (if we had nothing else to go by) that somehow the saints must not be here on earth during the last 3½ years known as the Great Tribulation. And we know that those 7 bowls of wrath transpire during the last 3½ years because at the 1st bowl of wrath this is written:

    Revelation 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

    NOTE: Clearly, this first plague (or bowl of wrath) will not occur on the saints BECAUSE they obviously will refuse the mark of the beast. So the saints escape this first "wrath" or plague of God.

    That is obviously at the start of the last 3½ years because we are told in Revelation 13 that the false prophet (known as the 2nd beast of Revelation 13, also commonly called the anti-christ though that is not his proper title. His proper title is "the false prophet".) along with the 7-headed beast w/10 horns organization are granted full authority over the entire globe for 42 months and the mandate of the mark of the beast, too. Read:

    Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

    And regardless of your position on the timing of the rapture (pre, mid, post) everybody is in agreement that what brings an end to those 42 months of the Satanic system is the return of Jesus Christ.

    Now those deductions the pre-tribbers make are sensible, if there were not some other verses to help make better clarity of it all. So now we have these:

    Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

    This verse in 12:12 tells us that the devil's wrath will also be occurring on the earth in the end days.

    So God's wrath and the devil's wrath at the same time?

    Hmmmm... interesting.

    Then we have

    Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
    Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

    Now that is clear as day. We are told in no uncertain terms that the wrath of God is the lake of fire!

    So what do we make of the 7 bowls of wrath during the Great Tribulation?

    Well, we are also told to interpret those particular wraths as plagues. This from chapter 15 which precedes chapter 16, i.e. the bowls of wrath. Read:

    Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

    So up to this point, it would
    seem that there is conflicting evidence on the subject on the wrath of God. And how do we interpret the verses at the top of this page which says that the saved will escape the wrath of God, but the wicked will not be spared?

    Easy. With more comprehensive bible knowledge now outlined on the subject (above), we can now use logic/deduction, along with a couple more verses to illustrate.

    * Do you really think that all the evil and wicked men of the past 6000 years have escaped the wrath of God because they died before the Great Tribulation???

    Please think on those words. Really. Read that point again and think about it.

    The Great Tribulation only lasts a mere 3½ years. As a percentage of man's history, that is only 3.5 divided by 6000 which equals .0005833333, or .0583% of all history of man. So if you think the wrath of God is the Great Tribulation, then basically you believe that ALL THE WICKED MEN since Cain killed Abel and throughout all history (and let us not forget those who murdered the prophets, those who murdered Jesus and spit on Him, those who burned the Christians alive, or fed them to hungry lions, or the evil Spanish inquisition, Stalin, Mao, Castro, or just plain rapists, etc.),, get a free pass and do not suffer God's wrath. Because they died before the great tribulation. Is that what you really believe?

    You can see immediately that such an interpretation is bogus.

    No, all evil, unrepented men and women throughout history will indeed suffer the wrath of God, and since almost all men and women (in excess of 99% of all humanity since Adam) did not experience the near future Great Tribulation, we know that the true meaning of escaping the wrath of God (as the opening verses I pasted above) means the righteous escape the
    Lake of Fire, not the plagues of Revelation 16.

    = = = = = = =
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021 at 11:32 PM
  2. NewMusic

    NewMusic New Member

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    Now, what about this "Not knowing the day or the hour"?

    This verse, the pre-trib rapture thinkers deduce (and it's not easy to fault them. There seems to be a lot behind their reasoning!) means that the rapture must happen before all the hoopla of the Great Tribulation (be it at the beginning or the middle of the last 7-year week identified by Daniel 9:24-27) based on the following thought process:

    Since nobody will know the day or the hour, it has to be sudden and completely like a surprise since Jesus said He comes like a thief in the night. And since we know that it is Jesus whose 2nd Coming puts an end to lawlessness and destroys the False prophet and the 7-headed beast, if we knew when the details of Revelation 13 (when those 42-months that the 7-headed beast is allowed to rule the whole earth, and if we also deduce that the False prophet begins his reign at exactly that same time, can we actually know this?) well then we would know the day that Jesus comes back! He would come back 42 months from the revealing of the False prophet! And so that cannot reconcile with we "won't know the day or the hour." Finir! (French)

    Ok. But there is in fact faulty thinking going on there as well as lack of bible education. Two things:

    1) Actually, God tells us in the bible that we will know when Jesus returns! And it's plain as day. Read:


    1 Thess 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
    1 Thess 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
    1 Thess 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

    1 Thess 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
    1 Th 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.

    You see brethren, that Jesus comes like a thief in the night FOR THE LOST because they are in darkness! The Church is fully informed and knows full well how and when things unfold. He does not come like a thief in the night to the church! The church knows fully well and we are warning everybody. When Jesus said also that His coming would be like in the days of Noah, and the sinners were sinning and completely unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, the sinners were taken by surprise.

    2)
    "You do not know the day or the hour" ... does not only mean the 2nd Coming of the Lord. It also means the Grim Reaper -- you do not know what day you are going to die, and so Jesus comes unexpectedly on all the saints throughout history! Jesus Himself gave this example!:

    Luke 12:19
    "And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry." '
    Luke 12:20 But God said to him, You fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?'

    3) With regard to the exact day or hour (notice the 2nd time unit is smaller than a day), there are many reasons why we will not know the exact day, but we should easily be able to ascertain to the month or at least the season of His return! We are the saints and we know what is happening now and the bible tells us what to be on the lookout for. We are children of the day, not the night. Read that verse again!:

    1 Thess 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
    1 Th 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.

    Regarding not knowing the day or the hour, are those months Jewish months, Gregorian, or Chinese? :) And if they are Jewish months, do any of us live by that type of calendar? No.

    During the distressing times and fleeing and all the lies and propaganda that passes for "news", will any of the saints be able to identify the exact day of when the 7-headed beast assumes full control, from its partial control state? And what about these most difficult passages:

    Daniel 8:14 And he said to him, "For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."

    Is that 2,300 days, or 1150 days??? And how do either of these numbers reconcile with 3½ years????

    Or how about this? :

    Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (1290 days)
    Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. (1335 days)

    What do those verses even mean, and is there an interlude of 45 day difference between the two? What's its meaning? How does it figure into the week of years, if at all?

    So you see, some of these things are simply beyond us. I personally believe that when we get to heaven, Jesus will show us how all these things fit together and that the bible did all along contain the exact day and hour that Jesus is to return. But none of us will be able to figure it out, along with all the rest of the old testament scriptures which might be "hidden" to us, presently. But this statement is just my own personal belief. It's not important for everything else I wrote. Just my own sentiment.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM
  3. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with basically all your post except for that seen in bold red above, the "Sealed" church will be present on earth and protected from the plagues as seen below

    There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

    The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

    The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

    All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

    Ephesians 1:13KJV
    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30KJV
    30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

    Revelation 9:3-6KJV
    3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

    Revelation 11:3-6
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    Revelation 16:1-11KJV
    1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
    3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
    4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
    5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
    6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
    7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
    8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
    9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 12:52 AM
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  4. NewMusic

    NewMusic New Member

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    Hey Truth7t7,

    I looked carefully just now at what you posted, and I would love to believe that thought, that the church will be protected from these last plagues, but it's most difficult to reconcile with known facts about the end days, i.e. the beheadings of the saints, the imprisonment of the saints, brother delivering up brother to death, not being able to buy or sell, and with regard to the last plagues, how do the saints not get affected by the waters that have been ruined, and the famines, etc.?

    No, I've studied these things for decades, and thought and meditated on them, and I just can't see how the saints who are able to escape the imprisonments, and some who hide themselves well, will be able to not have to deal with these issues.

    Regarding the verses you posted in Ephesians, the sealing by the Holy Spirit (is obviously different from the angels sealing the 144,000) the Holy Spirit's sealing and the entire context of that has to do with belonging to Christ. It's quite a stretch to see that as some sort of immunity from the horrors of the last days. If there's a clear connection from the Holy Spirit's sealing to the preserving the saints somehow in the End Days, by all means, show me. But it needs to be better than posting those 2 verses in Ephesians. I'm totally open to learning something new, if you can do it.

    Regarding the 144,000, nobody knows what to make of that. We have all pondered it, read countless commentaries, and we don't truly know its meaning. I know what the dispensationalists think, but I'm not on board with that at all. There may be some overlap (all false teachings do have some elements of truth in them), but as I'm sure you realize, the 12 tribes listed are completely wrong to any orthodox Hebrew. Dan is not mentioned, and the more important tribe, Ephraim, is not listed and instead the lesser important tribe Manasseh is. And these 144,000 cannot possibly be what we know as the church for the simple reason that the 144,000 are male virgins. No females in that lot.

    I throw my hands up on this. I have no idea how that plays out. And if these are indeed Hebrews (Jews by blood), and it may very well be, their sealing does not help you and me.

    Lastly, and if you care to find the thread where I tried to help Jessiblues on this subject, the 2 prophets do not do their ministry during the last 3½ years, but the first half. It's easily proven, but I've got a check in my spirit about unveiling all that Christ has taught me about all this, at this time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 1:26 AM
  5. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not denying that saints will be killed in the future tribulation,those who God prepares, 1 Corinthians 10:13

    The propaganda presented by many, teaching that the beast has full control is "deception"

    The two Witnesses will rule the 3.5 year tribulation through plagues and wrath "God Rules"

    A complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the Hebrews weren't running scared "God Rules"

    Revelation 9:3-6 men tormented for 5 months, desiring to die as death flees, as the sealed church is protected "God Rules"

    All plagues come upon the Beast and his kingdom as you were shown in Revelation 16:1-11 "God Rules"

    Those who kill will be killed, those who desire to imprison will be imprisoned, Gods divine protection of the Church, he who has an ear let him hear! Revelation 13:9-10 "God Rules"

    God feeds the Remnant Church in the wilderness, manna from heaven as in the days of coming out of Egypt, as the world watches in fear Revelation 12:6, Micah 7:11-17 "God Rules"

    The church on earth is instructed to enter their dwellings until Gods wrath in indignation is past, just like the passover in Egypt Isaiah 26:20-21"God Rules"

    And many suggest the Beast is ruling the tribulation, not a chance! "God Rules"
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 1:41 AM
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  6. NewMusic

    NewMusic New Member

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    The majority of your quotes above to do not support your premise - the saints not experiencing the horrors of the End Days. They just don't.

    You're quoting verses out of context, or verses that have no bearing on the end days.

    I like the Isaiah 26:20-21 verses, but when I read the whole chapter, it does not connect to a concept of God protecting the saints during the last days. In fact, in that passage, God tells His people to enter into their chambers (hide themselves, or do not go out in public) until His fury passes. This is not protection, but counsel.

    And the Revelation 12 passage about the woman fleeing into the wilderness -- I had hoped for a long time that that was connected to another passage in Revelation for the church, but then I read somebody on the web who gave an explanation that was most difficult to reject, as much as I wanted his explanation to not be true. That explanation seems very solid. And it's this:

    The male child born from the woman is none other than Christ. We are agreed on that? I cannot see it any other way. And so then who is the woman? The man's explanation was that the woman is Judaism, which gave birth to Christ. And that makes total sense, and Jesus said this to the woman at the well:

    John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

    That's like another way of saying, Christ came forth out of the Jews. The woman gave birth to Christ. The woman is the Jews, and those Jews fleeing into the wilderness. And it could also be in agreement with the 144,000. I don't know, but I do know that the woman is not the church. There's even a further distinction at the end of that chapter that reads:

    Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    See? There again, the offspring of the woman is the church having the testimony of Jesus. The woman is not the church, but Judaism.

    Those arguments are quite formidable. There's no way God is sparing the church of suffering during the end days. Jesus actually promised the exact opposite of what you are wishing to believe.


    Lastly, whenever you try to reconcile specific prophecies about the Jewish people in the Old Testament with the Gentile church (if I may say it that way), you get into all types of problems and confusion. Is the church the true Israel? Is there any hope remaining for "Old Israel Jews", i.e. the original branches that were broken off? Of course there is.. but how to reconcile the specific Old testament prophecies about the Jews with the church... is no easy task. Best left alone unless you have God's true revelation on the subject.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 2:44 AM
  7. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    We will strongly disagree, the two witnesses will rule the future tribulation through plagues and wrath, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, Gods divine protection will be with the Church on earth as shown

    We Will Disagree

    In Love, Jesus Is The Lord
     
  8. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    There is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

    All covenants and promises were fulfilled in Jesus Christ Galatians 3:16

    The church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed, the children of the flesh Ethnic Israel, these are not the children of God,its that simple Roman's 9:6-8

    The Church is the Israel of God, the 12 tribes scattered abroad James 1:1

    Learn the parable, and focus your attention on verse 16?

    Luke 20:1-20KJV
    1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
    2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
    3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:
    4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
    5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?
    6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.
    7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.
    8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
    9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
    10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
    11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
    12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
    13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
    14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
    15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
    16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
    17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
    18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
    20 And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 3:00 AM
  9. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles Active Member

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    @NewMusic IMO the reason there is so much confusion about this is firstly because many saints don't understand the difference between tribulation and wrath.

    WRATH & JUDGMENT vs TRIBULATION ACCORDING TO THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS

    WRATH
    God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

    JUDGMENT
    God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement. A final judgement came upon Babylon when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city (in the day Jerusalem was destroyed by the the armies of Babylon): Jeremiah 50:13

    FINAL JUDGMENT
    The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved. The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

    TRIBULATION
    (i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and there is no "once-off" experience of tribulation.

    (ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

    but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's wrath, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image"

    TRIBULATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
    With the exception of Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6,
    every single reference to tribulation in the New Testament is talking about tribulation as the experience of the saints, i.e of those who believe in Christ (unless Matthew 24:21, which talks about great tribulation, is a third exception to the rule and is speaking about the great tribulation which was faced by the Jews in A.D 70).

    GREAT TRIBULATION
    There are three times (only three times) in the New Testament where the Greek word mégas (great) is used as an adjective to describe the intensity of the thlîpsis (tribulation): Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22; and Revelation 7:14.

    Two of them are OBVIOUSLY talking about great tribulation as the experience of the saints (Revelation 2:22 and Revelation 7:14).

    SAVED FROM WRATH, NOT FROM THE TRIBULATION OF THE SAINTS
    The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

    1 Thessalonians 5
    9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Romans 5
    8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
    10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
    35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Revelation 3 The wrath of God is being called "the hour of temptation" in this verse
    10 Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

    It's talking about being saved from God's wrath, not from tribulation. The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

    Note: The entire "Pre-tribulation rapture" idea is based on conflating tribulation and great tribulation with God's wrath. "The great tribulation" that the New Testament is talking about in the Revelation is a prophesied experience of saints at the hand of the beast in the day he makes war against them and overcomes them, which will not be a tribulation being experienced by the saints as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, because the saints are saved from God's wrath.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 7:29 AM
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  10. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles Active Member

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    @NewMusic Secondly they don't understand that the sentence has already been decreed.

    JUDGEMENT DAY AND THE LAST DAYS

    120 years before the flood, God judged the world, and the world was found guilty:

    Genesis 6:5-7
    "And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them."

    Genesis 6:13-14a
    "And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make an ark of Cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark..."

    Genesis 6:3
    "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

    The world, in the days of Noah, was not judged on the day the floods came. The flood was just the carrying out of the decreed sentence which had already been passed when the world was judged 120 years earlier. God had already judged the world, and the world had already been found guilty. The sentence had been decreed, but not carried out yet. There was still a chance to get into the ark, and many were no doubt called into the ark, but few (8 souls) were chosen.

    THE ARK IS A PICTURE OF CHRIST:

    John 12:31-32
    "Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

    Revelation 12:9-11
    "And the great dragon was cast out,
    the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven,

    Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

    John 3:17
    "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

    Hebrews 11:7
    "By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

    2 Peter 3:9
    "The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance."

    It's the carrying out of the decreed sentence that is still coming: John saw death and hades delivering up all the dead in them at the end of time in the current heavens and earth. The books were opened and all whose names were not written in the book of Life were cast into the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15), but the Great White Throne is not the judgement - it's the carrying out of the sentence.

    When the world was judged, the judgement fell on Christ, and just as the floods came upon the ark, but the ark was lifted up (and out of the destruction) while those in the ark were saved (but only those in the ark), so Christ bore the judgement of the world, was lifted up from the earth, and He is our ark, the ark of those who are IN HIM through faith in Him.

    So if we believe the words of Jesus and the Revelation Jesus has given us, then we will understand that God’s judgement has already come, but the decreed sentence is yet to be carried out. What will occur at the time of the return of Christ is not "the" judgement (because the judgement of this world came when Christ died on the cross), but it will be a judgement, because whenever the wrath of God is poured out upon people or nations, it’s a judgement.

    What will occur at the time all souls appear before the Great White Throne is the carrying out of the decreed sentence; and Jesus is our Ark.

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    "God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds."

    "The last days" in Noah's day was the 120 years before the flood came.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 7:29 AM
  11. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles Active Member

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    Isn't the above the same church Paul was writing to when he said,

    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
    2 that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.

    3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
    4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.
    5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you?

    Which Temple? This temple:

    The son of perdition and the Tabernacle of God
     
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  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    So in essence you are saying, don't expect pre-trib rapture because the wrath you are promised to be spared is the wrath of final judgment, not the wrath of the 70th week. Is that correct?

    Much love!
     
  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 7:9-17 KJV
    9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    The church in heaven, before the trumpets, before the two witnesses, before the beast, before the war in heaven, before the devil is cast to the earth having great wrath.

    Much love!
     
  14. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    No man knows the day or hour (Second Coming) future unfulfilled
     
  15. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

    Luke 21:25-28KJV
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
     
  16. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    All men who died without faith will spend eternity in the lake of fire! However the lake is not the wrath of God!

    Revelation 15:1
    And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

    context is key and the word in greek is also key. there are several words translated in English as wrath. Only two things in the NT are called wrath (coming from God) HIs anger with the lost asnd the tribulation period!
     
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  17. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles Active Member

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    Copy @Truth7t7 God's people were suffering tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt while the plagues were coming upon Egypt. There were two witnesses whom God gave power to bring plagues upon Egypt (turning the waters into blood etc): Moses & Aaron.

    The destruction of Pharaoh (the beast's) armies = the deliverance of the saints. Same hour. Two witnesses rise from the dead and the beast is destroyed. Same hour (Revelation 11:13).

    So did the plagues that were coming upon Egypt affect God's people in Egypt?
     
  18. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles Active Member

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    I agree. But Luke 21:25-28 and Matthew 24:39-31 seem to be talking only about the return of Christ, which makes those verses stand out like a sore thumb in each gospel against the context of all the surrounding verses before and after them, because Luke 21:20-24 is clearly talking about A.D 70, and likewise with Matthew 24:15-21.

    SO the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse can't be an either/or thing. It precludes neither A.D 70, nor the end of our Age, but includes both.

    Truth7t7, just in case you've run out out of opening words for your reply, I'll lend you some (you've handed enough of them to me already):

    You are in error ..
     
  19. jessiblue

    jessiblue Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

    If you think the woman [Israel] are the Jews, It will be almost impossible for you to understand many things, for "Israel" is the offspring also of the ten tribes that were scattered. Yet today they exist in large part as the Christian nations of the world. The prophet Hosea identified them:

    Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured not numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not My People,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living
    God.'
    "

    Hosea is calling attention to the time of the end, to the house of Israel in the end times and how they will be remembered in Europe, America or where ever those nations are established. There this house of “Israel” will not consider themselves as Israel, but as Gentile nations, and they will call themselves "sons of the living God.” Jesus Christ is the "living God" and those that are sons of God are called Christians. This could not be the Jews under any condition for they do not consider Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

    The race "Caucasian" are the peoples of the old "House of Israel" who went over the Caucasus Mountains and settled throughout western Europe, and colonized elsewhere around the world. They are the Christian nations. These are people who represent the “woman” who brought forth the manchild, Jesus Christ, and Satan is after us Christians. So the “woman” is me and you and anyone who professes to be a Christian. Remember that Gentiles who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ have been grafted in and are part of the tree of Israel. And so, we Christians will be the target of this flood of lies and deception that will be coming from Satan and his locust army.

    jb
     
  20. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 21:9KJV
    9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.


    Zechariah 14:12KJV
    And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


    2 Peter 3:10KJV
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
     
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