Not this thread, but a different one I will create later tonight, will outline clearly the true teaching of Christ regarding the TIMING of this thing called the "rapture". Look for it in a few hours from now.
Meanwhile, there are a couple of things that Pre-Trib believers hang a lot of their conclusions on based on a deduction that they misunderstand. I will post a couple of those now.
First a sample of verses using the word wrath:
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
1Thess 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thess 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
Now from those verses, and a few others that are similar, and the fact that there are 7 bowls of wrath identified in Revelation chapter 16, it's easy to conclude (if we had nothing else to go by) that somehow the saints must not be here on earth during the last 3½ years known as the Great Tribulation. And we know that those 7 bowls of wrath transpire during the last 3½ years because at the 1st bowl of wrath this is written:
Revelation 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
NOTE: Clearly, this first plague (or bowl of wrath) will not occur on the saints BECAUSE they obviously will refuse the mark of the beast. So the saints escape this first "wrath" or plague of God.
That is obviously at the start of the last 3½ years because we are told in Revelation 13 that the false prophet (known as the 2nd beast of Revelation 13, also commonly called the anti-christ though that is not his proper title. His proper title is "the false prophet".) along with the 7-headed beast w/10 horns organization are granted full authority over the entire globe for 42 months and the mandate of the mark of the beast, too. Read:
Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
And regardless of your position on the timing of the rapture (pre, mid, post) everybody is in agreement that what brings an end to those 42 months of the Satanic system is the return of Jesus Christ.
Now those deductions the pre-tribbers make are sensible, if there were not some other verses to help make better clarity of it all. So now we have these:
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
This verse in 12:12 tells us that the devil's wrath will also be occurring on the earth in the end days.
So God's wrath and the devil's wrath at the same time?
Hmmmm... interesting.
Then we have
Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Now that is clear as day. We are told in no uncertain terms that the wrath of God is the lake of fire!
So what do we make of the 7 bowls of wrath during the Great Tribulation?
Well, we are also told to interpret those particular wraths as plagues. This from chapter 15 which precedes chapter 16, i.e. the bowls of wrath. Read:
Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.
So up to this point, it would seem that there is conflicting evidence on the subject on the wrath of God. And how do we interpret the verses at the top of this page which says that the saved will escape the wrath of God, but the wicked will not be spared?
Easy. With more comprehensive bible knowledge now outlined on the subject (above), we can now use logic/deduction, along with a couple more verses to illustrate.
* Do you really think that all the evil and wicked men of the past 6000 years have escaped the wrath of God because they died before the Great Tribulation???
Please think on those words. Really. Read that point again and think about it.
The Great Tribulation only lasts a mere 3½ years. As a percentage of man's history, that is only 3.5 divided by 6000 which equals .0005833333, or .0583% of all history of man. So if you think the wrath of God is the Great Tribulation, then basically you believe that ALL THE WICKED MEN since Cain killed Abel and throughout all history (and let us not forget those who murdered the prophets, those who murdered Jesus and spit on Him, those who burned the Christians alive, or fed them to hungry lions, or the evil Spanish inquisition, Stalin, Mao, Castro, or just plain rapists, etc.),, get a free pass and do not suffer God's wrath. Because they died before the great tribulation. Is that what you really believe?
You can see immediately that such an interpretation is bogus.
No, all evil, unrepented men and women throughout history will indeed suffer the wrath of God, and since almost all men and women (in excess of 99% of all humanity since Adam) did not experience the near future Great Tribulation, we know that the true meaning of escaping the wrath of God (as the opening verses I pasted above) means the righteous escape the Lake of Fire, not the plagues of Revelation 16.
= = = = = = =
Meanwhile, there are a couple of things that Pre-Trib believers hang a lot of their conclusions on based on a deduction that they misunderstand. I will post a couple of those now.
First a sample of verses using the word wrath:
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
1Thess 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thess 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
Now from those verses, and a few others that are similar, and the fact that there are 7 bowls of wrath identified in Revelation chapter 16, it's easy to conclude (if we had nothing else to go by) that somehow the saints must not be here on earth during the last 3½ years known as the Great Tribulation. And we know that those 7 bowls of wrath transpire during the last 3½ years because at the 1st bowl of wrath this is written:
Revelation 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
NOTE: Clearly, this first plague (or bowl of wrath) will not occur on the saints BECAUSE they obviously will refuse the mark of the beast. So the saints escape this first "wrath" or plague of God.
That is obviously at the start of the last 3½ years because we are told in Revelation 13 that the false prophet (known as the 2nd beast of Revelation 13, also commonly called the anti-christ though that is not his proper title. His proper title is "the false prophet".) along with the 7-headed beast w/10 horns organization are granted full authority over the entire globe for 42 months and the mandate of the mark of the beast, too. Read:
Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
And regardless of your position on the timing of the rapture (pre, mid, post) everybody is in agreement that what brings an end to those 42 months of the Satanic system is the return of Jesus Christ.
Now those deductions the pre-tribbers make are sensible, if there were not some other verses to help make better clarity of it all. So now we have these:
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
This verse in 12:12 tells us that the devil's wrath will also be occurring on the earth in the end days.
So God's wrath and the devil's wrath at the same time?
Hmmmm... interesting.
Then we have
Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Now that is clear as day. We are told in no uncertain terms that the wrath of God is the lake of fire!
So what do we make of the 7 bowls of wrath during the Great Tribulation?
Well, we are also told to interpret those particular wraths as plagues. This from chapter 15 which precedes chapter 16, i.e. the bowls of wrath. Read:
Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.
So up to this point, it would seem that there is conflicting evidence on the subject on the wrath of God. And how do we interpret the verses at the top of this page which says that the saved will escape the wrath of God, but the wicked will not be spared?
Easy. With more comprehensive bible knowledge now outlined on the subject (above), we can now use logic/deduction, along with a couple more verses to illustrate.
* Do you really think that all the evil and wicked men of the past 6000 years have escaped the wrath of God because they died before the Great Tribulation???
Please think on those words. Really. Read that point again and think about it.
The Great Tribulation only lasts a mere 3½ years. As a percentage of man's history, that is only 3.5 divided by 6000 which equals .0005833333, or .0583% of all history of man. So if you think the wrath of God is the Great Tribulation, then basically you believe that ALL THE WICKED MEN since Cain killed Abel and throughout all history (and let us not forget those who murdered the prophets, those who murdered Jesus and spit on Him, those who burned the Christians alive, or fed them to hungry lions, or the evil Spanish inquisition, Stalin, Mao, Castro, or just plain rapists, etc.),, get a free pass and do not suffer God's wrath. Because they died before the great tribulation. Is that what you really believe?
You can see immediately that such an interpretation is bogus.
No, all evil, unrepented men and women throughout history will indeed suffer the wrath of God, and since almost all men and women (in excess of 99% of all humanity since Adam) did not experience the near future Great Tribulation, we know that the true meaning of escaping the wrath of God (as the opening verses I pasted above) means the righteous escape the Lake of Fire, not the plagues of Revelation 16.
= = = = = = =
Last edited: