TULIP an open discussion

[Ronald David Bruno]

You must be a Traditionalist/Provisionist.

However, the Apostle Paul plainly taught that the Spirit-Indwelt believer can fall away, for the indwelling Spirit will only give Eternal Life to the Spirit-indwelt believer who sows to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

Many Christians will:

• Grieve the indwelling Spirit (Ephesians 4:17-32; Isaiah 63:10);
• Quench the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19);
• Insult/Engrage the indwelling Spirit (Hebrews 10:24-31);
• Reject the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8),
• Lie to the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:3),
• Test the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:9)

The Spirit leads as we continue in the faith diligent to follow the Spirit’s guidance. By refusing to be led by the Spirit into a sanctified life, they show they have fallen. Such Christians are rejecting God (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8). The result of resisting can be eternal punishment if the Christian dies in unrepentance (Hebrews 10:24-30). So we are to continue to walk in the Spirit, who indwells us by faith, to have life.

Falling away is not necessarily a permanent event as if your name was blotted out of the Book of Life. It's called back-sliding or just getting lost. When people get lost in the forest, it's not always permanent. They may find that their route was wrong and try to find their way back or someone else finds them, rescues them, like a shepherd who looks for that lost sheep. It could be temporary, it could be your entire life up to just days before your death. But I do believe that if the seed was planted in fertile soil, it will grow to produce fruit. And when God cleanses a person, creates a new creature, and begins the process of transforming them He doesn't later change His mind. If we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, that means no one can break that seal, not even us. It is a done deal. We are saved, and this is confirmed by past tense scriptures about our salvation:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph. 1:13

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

It has happened for many of us. I couldn't believe without that certainty. It is a promise that I believe will not be broken.

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom. 8:38-39

 

[setst777]

And Paul gave HIS meaning to the metaphor. The potter metaphor in Jeremiah has a completely different meaning than the potter metaphor in Romans.

When Paul alluded to the OT metaphor that God used, he is expecting his audience to review the details of that metaphor - the "why" and "how" from God, of which Paul referred to. But you want to ignore what God explained, and desire to give your own meaning to the "why" and "how."

Sure he did. He uses the metaphor and then he explains it.

Paul never explained, in that section (Romans 9), the "why" and "how" of the metaphor that God used.

In addition, if you took the time to read the whole Letter to the Romans, you would have known that Paul's understanding is the same as God's. I gave you the quotes and, once again, you reject the explanation from Paul and God, just so you can force your own meaning into the text.

Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

That is the choice Paul states that God gives all mankind. God forms for salvation or punishment based on how they respond, just as Paul explains here. People can do otherwise, just as Paul teaches.

Yes, that is the message of the entire Bible. But Paul is explaining why some believe while others don't.

No, Paul never explained why some believe and others don't in Romans 9, but in Romans 10, Paul does explain "how" a person comes to faith in Lord Jesus, which I will now quote, and you will ignore, just as you did the other Passages.

Romans 10:17-21 (WEB) states: 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, didn’t they hear? Yes, most certainly, “Their sound went out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” [Psalm 19:4]

19 But I ask, didn’t Israel know? First Moses says,

“I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation. I will make you angry with a nation void of understanding.” [Deuteronomy 32:21]

20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” [Isaiah 65:1] 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

Okay, the word "conformed" is in the passive voice meaning that God is doing the conforming, not us.

I believe God conforms us to the Image of Christ, but only as the believer continues in the faith manifested by putting off the old man and putting on the new man. That is what conforming to the Image of Christ is all about. I gave you an explanation by Paul, and once again you ignore his explanation so you can force your own meaning.

The believer is conformed to the image of His Son, as the believer remains faithful to put on the new man.

Colossians 3:9-12 (WEB) 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, 11 where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, or free person; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance

To be conformed to the Image of Christ, we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, which is instruction to believers on how to live out our faith.

Romans 12:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. 2 Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God.

The nature of God's being: compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance

And the believer remains faithful because the Spirit of God has been poured out into his heart.

Show me the Scripture that states the Spirit causes us to remain faithful.

The Scriptures rather teach that the believer is to remain faithful to walk, live, drink, and sow to the Spirit to have life.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man Sows, that he will also Reap.
8 For he who Sows to his own flesh will from the flesh Reap corruption. But he who Sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} Reap Eternal Life. 9 {{{Let us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will Reap in due season, {{{if we}}} {{{do not give up}}}.

To sow to the Spirit is to walk in the light, which is the only kind of faith by which the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 6:7 (WEB) 6 If {{{we}}} say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But {{{if we}}} walk in the light, as he is in the light, {{{we}}} have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Therefore, the believer has an obligation to live by the Spirit to have life.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

If the Spirit-filled believer does not continue to live a sanctified life onto God, then he is rejecting God and His Spirit who lives in him.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

 

[setst777]

Falling away is not necessarily a permanent event as if your name was blotted out of the Book of Life. It's called back-sliding or just getting lost. When people get lost in the forest, it's not always permanent. They may find that their route was wring and try to get back or someone else finds them and rescues them, like a shepherd who looks for that lost sheep. Could be temporary, could be your entire life up to just days before your death. But I do believe that if the seed was planted in fertile soil, it will grow to produce fruit. And when God cleanses a person, creates a new cre6ature, and begins the process of transforming them He doesn't later change His mind. If we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, that means no one can break that seal, not even us. It is a done deal. We are saved, and this is confirmed by past tense scriptures about our salvation:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph. 1:13

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

It has happened for many of us. I couldn't believe without that certainty. It is a promise that I believe will not be broken.

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom. 8:38-39

I agree that falling away is not necessarily a permanent event, but it can be.

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB) “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

In "John 5:24," the word "believes" is active and continuous.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [continuously listens] my word and believes [continuously believes] him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The ones who possess eternal life are those who continuously listen and believe. Not every believer will continue in the faith, as Lord Jesus lovingly warned His disciples:

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Jesus warning his disciples 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

1 Corinthians 10:12 (WEB) Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

The promises in "Romans 8:38-39" are guaranteed only to those who love God (Romans 8:28). Not everyone who loves God will remain so, as their faith can grow cold over time.

Romans 8:28 (WEB) 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Revelation 2:4-5 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Existence is not relative but absolute.

Is it?
Wouldn't you agree that you and I are more real than a character in a novel?

 

[CadyandZoe]

When Paul alluded to the OT metaphor that God used, he is expecting his audience to review the details of that metaphor - the "why" and "how" from God, of which Paul referred to. But you want to ignore what God explained, and desire to give your own meaning to the "why" and "how."

What makes you think Paul alluded to an OT metaphor. There is nothing in the text of Romans to suggest it and Paul is making a completely different point than Jeremiah.

Paul never explained, in that section (Romans 9), the "why" and "how" of the metaphor that God used.

That's my point. Paul didn't say anything about the metaphor that God used.

People can do otherwise, just as Paul teaches.

Again, Paul explicitly says that it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs.

No, Paul never explained why some believe and others don't in Romans 9, but in Romans 10, Paul does explain "how" a person comes to faith in Lord Jesus, which I will now quote, and you will ignore, just as you did the other Passages.

Romans 10:17-21 (WEB) states: 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, didn’t they hear? Yes, most certainly, “Their sound went out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” [Psalm 19:4]

Paul doesn't say "faith comes by hearing", the word "comes" is not in the Greek text. What Paul actually means to say is "Faith must accompany the hearing."

19 But I ask, didn’t Israel know? First Moses says,

“I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation. I will make you angry with a nation void of understanding.” [Deuteronomy 32:21]

20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” [Isaiah 65:1] 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

Paul says that God hardens whomever he will. Thus, although God stretched out his hands to a disobedient and contrary people, God has the ability to open eyes, and soften hearts. In fact, God says that one day he will give them a new heart and a new spirit and they will cease being a stubborn and obstinate people.

Understand? Think about it. Meditate on Ezekiel 11:19, and 36:26. He can do this anytime and anywhere.

I believe God conforms us to the Image of Christ, but only as the believer continues in the faith manifested by putting off the old man and putting on the new man. That is what conforming to the Image of Christ is all about. I gave you an explanation by Paul, and once again you ignore his explanation so you can force your own meaning.

I know. But you don't give proper consideration to the fact that God is the agent who causes the accord. God is the agent, bringing believers into accord with the image of Christ. The only reason a believer continues in the faith is BECAUSE God is at work in the believer's mind and heart. And he is exclusively at work in the minds and hearts of those whom he has chosen.

You seem to want the believer to be the agent of his own conformance.

To be conformed to the Image of Christ, we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, which is instruction to believers on how to live out our faith.

And who is the agent of this renewal? God is the one who is renewing our minds, not us.

Romans 12:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. 2 Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God.

The nature of God's being: compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance

Again, God is renewing our minds.

Show me the Scripture that states the Spirit causes us to remain faithful.

I can show you but you need to face this passage with an open mind, seeing that you remain unconvinced. In the following passage Paul argues that those whom God justified can glory in three different things.

Romans 5:1-5

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.​

Here the Apostle Paul makes a positive statement about those whom God has justified. He tells us what is true about all those whom God has justified. Those whom God has justified . . .

have peace with God.
Paul isn't talking about tranquility, he is talking about the cessation of hostilities. God justifies his friends. And now that we are his friends, what else does he do for us?

this grace in which we stand . . .
Not only have we been justified, but God has committed himself to maintain our status. We STAND in his grace and will never be moved.

we exult in hope of the glory of God . . .
our "brag" is that God will glorify us someday. And our brag is not an empty brag because our eventual glorification does NOT depend on us.

we exult in our tribulations . . .
We brag about our tribulations because we know that they will not cause us to abandon our faith. We will persevere in our tribulations, which will not only prove our character but also our hope.

hope does not disappoint . . .
This is not a general statement. Paul's word about perseverance and hope applies exclusively to those whom God has justified. And for these people, their hope in glorification will not be disappointed because God has poured out the Spirit in their hearts.

This is happy news and very encouraging. God guarantees that all those whom he justified will never fall away.

The Scriptures rather teach that the believer is to remain faithful to walk, live, drink, and sow to the Spirit to have life.

From the passage above, we see that those whom God justified will remain faithful.

To sow to the Spirit is to walk in the light, which is the only kind of faith by which the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Right. Exactly. Those whom God justified will sow to the Spirit and walk in the light.

Therefore, the believer has an obligation to live by the Spirit to have life.

Not only this, but the believer whom God justified will live by the Spirit.

If the Spirit-filled believer does not continue to live a sanctified life

The Spirit-filled believer will continue, just as Paul said.

 

[setst777]

What makes you think Paul alluded to an OT metaphor. There is nothing in the text of Romans to suggest it and Paul is making a completely different point than Jeremiah.

That's my point. Paul didn't say anything about the metaphor that God used.

All through "Romans 9," Paul is drawing upon, and quoting from, the OT in his letter to the Romans. For instance:

Romans 9:9 I tell the truth in Christ. I am not lying, my conscience testifying with me in the Holy Spirit 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers’ sake, my relatives according to the flesh 4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers, and from whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has come to nothing. For they are not all Israel that are of Israel.
7 Neither, because they are Abraham’s offspring, are they all children. But, “your offspring will be accounted as from Isaac.” [Genesis 21:12] 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as heirs. 9 For this is a word of promise, “At the appointed time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” [Genesis 18:10,14]
10 Not only so, but Rebekah also conceived by one, by our father Isaac. 11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” [Genesis 25:23] 13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [Malachi 1:2-3]
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be! 15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [Exodus 33:19]
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [Exodus 9:16] 18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
19 You will say then to me, “Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will?”
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” [Isaiah 29:16; 45:9] 21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? [Jeremiah 18:1-12; 2 Timothy 2:19-22]
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he says also in Hosea,
“I will call them ‘my people,’ which were not my people;
and her ‘beloved,’ who was not beloved.” [Hosea 2:23]
26 “It will be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’” [Hosea 1:10]
27 Isaiah cries concerning Israel,
“If the number of the children of Israel are as the sand of the sea,
it is the remnant who will be saved;
28 for He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.” [Isaiah 10:22-23]
29 As Isaiah has said before,
“Unless the Lord of Armies had left us a seed,
we would have become like Sodom,
and would have been made like Gomorrah.” [Isaiah 1:9]
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written,
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense;
and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.” [Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

 

[setst777]

Again, Paul explicitly says that it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs.

We all agree. However, the "HOW" and "WHY" God does what He does is fully explained by Paul in the rest of his Letter to the Roman, including "Romans 9:21-33." All you have to do is read it for yourself. In the OT, God also explains why He does what He does. All you have to do is read it.

Paul doesn't say "faith comes by hearing", the word "comes" is not in the Greek text. What Paul actually means to say is "Faith must accompany the hearing."

That does not change the meaning. Faith is by hearing. But didn't they all hear? Yes, most certainly!

When in doubt, read the context: "Romans 10:14-21."

For instance, start with "Romans 10:14" to get the context.

Romans 10:14-18 (WEB)
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard?
How will they hear without a preacher? 15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace,
who bring glad tidings of good things!” [Isaiah 52:7]

16 But they didn’t all listen to the glad news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” [Isaiah 53:1]
17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, didn’t they hear? Yes, most certainly,

“Their sound went out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.” [Psalm 19:4]

Paul says that God hardens whomever he will. Thus, although God stretched out his hands to a disobedient and contrary people, God has the ability to open eyes, and soften hearts. In fact, God says that one day he will give them a new heart and a new spirit and they will cease being a stubborn and obstinate people.

The reasons God hardens people, including Israel, are easily understood by reading the Scriptures. God hardens people in judgment, as Paul explains in "Romans 1."

Romans 1:22-28 (WEB)
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, four-footed animals, and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves; 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. 28 Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting

God hardens in judgment for those who continually refuse his grace, and God can use that hardening for his purposes - such as in the case of Pharaoh, and also Israel. Both were hardened in judgment, but God used that hardening to also bring about his plans.

Understand? Think about it. Meditate on Ezekiel 11:19, and 36:26. He can do this anytime and anywhere.

We all agree, but it is not up to you to force your own doctrine into those Passages, when God gives good reasons for the things he does, of which we see examples all through the OT in God's dealings with Israel and other nations, such as Ninevah and many others.

Paul gives us a good picture of God's reasons for doing what he does in "Romans 1:18-37" and "Romans 2," and also "Romans 9:21-33."

I know. But you don't give proper consideration to the fact that God is the agent who causes the accord. God is the agent, bringing believers into accord with the image of Christ. The only reason a believer continues in the faith is BECAUSE God is at work in the believer's mind and heart. And he is exclusively at work in the minds and hearts of those whom he has chosen.

That is your doctrine, but is not how Scripture explains it.

You seem to want the believer to be the agent of his own conformance.

God leaves the decision up to each individual to repent and believe or to refuse His grace.

Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

That is the choice Paul states that God gives all mankind. God forms for salvation or punishment based on how they respond, just as Paul explains here. People can do otherwise, just as Paul teaches.

And who is the agent of this renewal? God is the one who is renewing our minds, not us.

Paul instructs us to renew our minds.

Again, God is renewing our minds.

I can show you but you need to face this passage with an open mind, seeing that you remain unconvinced. In the following passage Paul argues that those whom God justified can glory in three different things.

Romans 5:1-5

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.​

Here the Apostle Paul makes a positive statement about those whom God has justified. He tells us what is true about all those whom God has justified. Those whom God has justified . . .

According to the Passage you quoted, God justifies by faith. We gain access to God's saving grace by faith.

have peace with God.
Paul isn't talking about tranquility, he is talking about the cessation of hostilities. God justifies his friends. And now that we are his friends, what else does he do for us?

We have peace with God as we believe.

this grace in which we stand . . .
Not only have we been justified, but God has committed himself to maintain our status. We STAND in his grace and will never be moved.

Justification and grace are by faith.

we exult in hope of the glory of God . . .
our "brag" is that God will glorify us someday. And our brag is not an empty brag because our eventual glorification does NOT depend on us.

Everyone who believes has this hope, because God is faithful to His promises to all those who believe.

Romans 4:13 (WEB) 13 For the promise to Abraham and to his offspring that he should be heir of the world wasn’t through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the offspring

That is the hope of all those who believe.

We are to believe and hope. Those that do believe and hope, God guarantees his promises.

We are to remain in the faith to the end to inherit the promises.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let’s fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

All those who have the Spirit indwelling them are obligated to drink, live, walk, and sow to the Spirit to receive life from the Spirit (Romans 8:2-3; Romans 8:11-12; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-26).

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB) “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Sardis was a dead church as some today are dead. A dead tree does not produce fruit. These individuals were never born again to begin with.
Those seeds planted in shallow soil may take root for a short time but when trials come they fall away. They were really born again. They weren't changed.

John 5:24

If you believe, you have been saved.

The ones who possess eternal life are those who continuously listen and believe.

There is a sense that salvation exists in three tenses: has been saved, is being saved and will be saved. Each individual has a unique plan authored by God and so we do not know where they are in this process. We exist in "the already but not yet" reality. There is a tension between the two realms. Our redemption has not been fully realized, but for those who have a relationship ship with Christ, have been baptized by the Holy Spirit, we have been confirmed. Obviously the message to those in Sardis (and many like them), pertains to many who have not yet had that transformation.

1 Corinthians 10:12 (WEB) Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall

Christians fall sometimes on their journey just like an athlete in a race.

Revelation 2:4-5 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen,

Just a chastisement from Christ that your has gotten cold. Ephesus was that kind of church that had sound doctrine but their love was marginally cold. Some preachers can hit you over the head with scripture, point out your sin but aren't very graceful about it. Love, gentleness, kindness, mercy, forgiveness is a graceful attitude. He was saying get back to you origins. Churches lose their focus, get off track, get stagnant, and need rebuke ND correction sometimes. It doesn't mean they are totally dead.

 

[setst777]

Sardis was a dead church as some today are dead. A dead tree does not produce fruit. These individuals were never born again to begin with.
Those seeds planted in shallow soil may take root for a short time but when trials come they fall away. They were really born again. They weren't changed.

I advise you to always read the context to find what God wants us to know, rather then only isolating parts of what he said and then filling in the details with our own opinions.

The Sardis church was not always dead. Lord Jesus admonished them to repent from their fall.

Revelation 3:1-6 (WEB) 1 “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

What this shows all Christians is that it is possible for born again Christians to fall away from the faith. This happens all the time.

If you believe, you have been saved.

There is a sense that salvation exists in three tenses: has been saved, is being saved and will be saved. Each individual has a unique plan authored by God and so we do not know where they are in this process. We exist in "the already but not yet" reality. There is a tension between the two realms. Our redemption has not been fully realized, but for those who have a relationship ship with Christ, have been baptized by the Holy Spirit, we have been confirmed. Obviously the message to those in Sardis (and many like them), pertains to many who have not yet had that transformation.

Those in Sardis were transformed, they believed. However they fell away. Lord Jesus admonishes these Christians to "wake up" and keep the things that remain.

All born again Christians are admonished similarly as follows:

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man Sows, that he will also Reap.
8 For he who Sows to his own flesh will from the flesh Reap corruption. But he who Sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} Reap Eternal Life. 9 {{{Let us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will Reap in due season, {{{if we}}} {{{do not give up}}}.

Therefore, the believer has an obligation to live by the Spirit to have life.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

If the Spirit-filled believer does not continue to live a sanctified life onto God by walking in the Spirit, then he is rejecting God and His Spirit who lives in him.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Christians fall sometimes on their journey just like an athlete in a race.

Just a chastisement from Christ that your has gotten cold. Ephesus was that kind of church that had sound doctrine but their love was marginally cold. Some preachers can hit you over the head with scripture, point out your sin but aren't very graceful about it. Love, gentleness, kindness, mercy, forgiveness is a graceful attitude. He was saying get back to you origins. Churches lose their focus, get off track, get stagnant, and need rebuke ND correction sometimes. It doesn't mean they are totally dead.

None of the Seven Churches, of which the Seven Spirits watched over, were originally dead, lost their first love, etc.

Lord Jesus was admonishing seven Churches to either remain, or to repent and get back on track. None of the Churches that Lord Jesus was instructing were false Christians; rather, these were true Churches of Lord Jesus who all had one of the Seven Spirits watching over them, but some fell into apostasy, others pride, and others, unfaithfulness over time.

Lord Jesus is admonishing the Churches in hopes that they would reconsider their falling away from what they originally had in Christ, and to repent, and do the things they did at the first.

Christians definitely can and do fall away from the faith, and can be lost forever.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (WEB) Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Romans 11:19-22 (ESV) Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning the faith”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (WEB) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

Not every Christian will continue to hear or believe, but will make choices that cause them to give into temptation or false doctrine, and so be lost.

Acts 20:28-31 (EWEB) 28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears.

If you want to presume that all the warnings are just pep talk, and that they really will not fall away permanently, then you missing the point for the dire warnings and admonitions given.

 

[Wrangler]

Is it?
Wouldn't you agree that you and I are more real than a character in a novel?

No. Saying we are more real than a fictional character in a novel is often said in pop culture but does not hold up under epistemological scrutiny.

Darth Vadar is real. What is the nature of his existence? He’s a fictional character.

Have you ever read the definition of the universe? It is all matter, energy and knowledge. Darth Vader is a part of our universe, which is the sum of what is real.

Putting aside this application of absolute, many opponents reject and struggle with absolutes. In an episode of The Big Bang Theory, Sheldon corrected someone who said the popular, “You could not be more wrong.” He stated right and wrong are absolute; there are not degrees of wrong.

You can imagine how the Adversary wriggles under such rigid construct of reality! The whole self identification of gender is geared toward superseding the subjective, relativism over the objective, absolute. Just because our thinking is wrong does not change the fact that reality is absolute.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We all agree. However, the "HOW" and "WHY" God does what He does is fully explained by Paul in the rest of his Letter to the Roman, including "Romans 9:21-33." All you have to do is read it for yourself. In the OT, God also explains why He does what He does. All you have to do is read it.

All I can do is repeat what I said concerning a fundamental principle of reading a book. A metaphor can have more than one meaning. Jeremiah is using the potter metaphor to say one thing and Paul is using the potter metaphor to say something else. To understand what Paul intends to say, we must avoid overlaying Jeremiah onto Paul.

That does not change the meaning. Faith is by hearing. But didn't they all hear? Yes, most certainly!

I understand that you agree with the common interpretation of Romans 10, which suggests that hearing leads to faith. However, I would like to clarify that this interpretation is incorrect. In fact, Paul intended the opposite meaning. He argued that although Israel had heard Isaiah's report, they did not respond with faith.

Paul criticized his own people for seeking justification through works instead of faith. He believed that they should have sought justification by faith, which is the right way. In this context, when Paul said "faith by hearing," he actually meant "faith from hearing." He didn't suggest that hearing is the means to faith, but rather that the means to justification is believing Isaiah's report.

The reasons God hardens people, including Israel, are easily understood by reading the Scriptures. God hardens people in judgment, as Paul explains in "Romans 1."

Romans chapter one is not an argument for why God hardens people.

God hardens in judgment for those who continually refuse his grace, and God can use that hardening for his purposes - such as in the case of Pharaoh, and also Israel. Both were hardened in judgment, but God used that hardening to also bring about his plans.

Romans 9:18

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.​

Here we see that although God might harden a person's heart in judgment, this is not necessarily so. He might have mercy on someone instead. Whether someone is saved or not is still his choice.

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

In this passage, it's stated that God chose to justify only his chosen people and hardened the hearts of the rest. This idea may seem troubling, but it's important to reflect upon it. The author, Paul, is suggesting that God deliberately prevents some individuals from making a free choice. When someone's heart is hardened, it means that the possibility of changing their mind is closed off. Why did some in Israel not receive God's justification? The answer is simple: God did not will it.

We all agree, but it is not up to you to force your own doctrine into those Passages, when God gives good reasons for the things he does, of which we see examples all through the OT in God's dealings with Israel and other nations, such as Ninevah and many others.

I understand your struggle with the idea of God creating human choice and also giving them a choice while warning them about the consequences of making a wrong decision. I get it. The two ideas seem to contradict one another. Conditional statements in the Bible logically infer human freedom. Human freedom is a necessary requirement for human responsibility.

"The concept of human freedom only applies within the context of human existence. However, God is distinct from human existence as the exclusive and metaphysical source and sustainer of everything that exists. God is self-reliant, transcendent, and self-sufficient. As the creator and sustainer of all, God exists on a higher, more real level of reality. Therefore, when an individual chooses to believe in Jesus of their own free will, God simultaneously creates that individual making that decision freely. Both occurrences are true at the same time. The logic of creation supersedes the logic of freedom."

God leaves the decision up to each individual to repent and believe or to refuse His grace.

No, according to Paul, God hardens those whom he desires. Once he hardens a man, his ability to repent is foreclosed.

That is the choice Paul states that God gives all mankind. God forms for salvation or punishment based on how they respond, just as Paul explains here. People can do otherwise, just as Paul teaches.

On the contrary, Paul teaches that God's freedom superintends human freedom.

Paul instructs us to renew our minds.

He instructs us to act according to a mind that the Spirit is renewing,

According to the Passage you quoted, God justifies by faith. We gain access to God's saving grace by faith.

Yes, that is true as long as we understand that "by faith" doesn't mean "by reason of faith." The phrase "by faith" means "in light of faith."

We have peace with God as we believe.

Yes, as long as we understand the logical order of justification. 1. God pours out his Spirit into our hearts first. (One must be born again.) 2. When we encounter God's promise, we respond in faith, believing the gospel. 3. God grants us his justification. 4. We have peace with God.

Justification and grace are by faith.

No, justification and faith are gifts of grace. Salvation begins with an overture of God.

We are to remain in the faith to the end to inherit the promises.

If God is saving a person, that person will endure to the end.

Learn the difference between can fail and will fail. Peter, Paul, and James agree that an attested faith will never fail.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. Saying we are more real than a fictional character in a novel is often said in pop culture but does not hold up under epistemological scrutiny.

Darth Vadar is real. What is the nature of his existence? He’s a fictional character.

Okay. Let's add another quality of our existence to the mix. What is the difference between "subjective" and "objective". If Darth Vader only exists in the minds of those who have seen the movie, then he seems to have a different ontological quality. Yes?

 

[Wrangler]

Okay. Let's add another quality of our existence to the mix. What is the difference between "subjective" and "objective". If Darth Vader only exists in the minds of those who have seen the movie, then he seems to have a different ontological quality. Yes?

Subjective depends on the subject or person considering something. I like Coke more than Pepsi. This is a subjective statement.

Objective is independent of the person considering something and is inherent in a proper understanding of the object. Example: water in ice form floats in liquid water.

Darth Vader does NOT only exists in the minds of those who have seen the movie. He was portrayed by a real person and filmed. This portrayal can be objectively seen by anyone who watches the film. In other words, one does not need to rely on witnesses who already watched the film. His existence can be independently and objectively verified by anyone, even someone who watches the film for the first time.

As one delves into philosophical inquiry, one most be prepared to purge pop culture phrases as authoritative, such as you could not be more wrong or a person is more real than another.

 

[Wrangler]

As the creator and sustainer of all, God exists on a higher, more real level of reality.

There you go again. Higher, yes. More real, no. And why is ‘more real’ theologically important?

 

[setst777]

All I can do is repeat what I said concerning a fundamental principle of reading a book. A metaphor can have more than one meaning. Jeremiah is using the potter metaphor to say one thing and Paul is using the potter metaphor to say something else. To understand what Paul intends to say, we must avoid overlaying Jeremiah onto Paul.

Paul is arguing his case from the OT Scriptures throughout "Romans 9."

I understand that you agree with the common interpretation of Romans 10, which suggests that hearing leads to faith. However, I would like to clarify that this interpretation is incorrect. In fact, Paul intended the opposite meaning. He argued that although Israel had heard Isaiah's report, they did not respond with faith.

It is through the preaching about Christ that we come to the knowledge about the salvation he offers us, but God will only saves those who believe in the Gospel being preached.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (EWEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

God always leaves the choice to believe or to refuse His grace completely on each individual.

A sinner passes from death onto life by faith, not so he can believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Paul criticized his own people for seeking justification through works instead of faith. He believed that they should have sought justification by faith, which is the right way. In this context, when Paul said "faith by hearing," he actually meant "faith from hearing." He didn't suggest that hearing is the means to faith, but rather that the means to justification is believing Isaiah's report.

What Paul meant is plainly described by Paul in "Romans 9:14-21."

However, at least you are now agreeing that "faith" is the responsibility of each individual.

Romans chapter one is not an argument for why God hardens people.

Yes, "Romans 1" definitely shows us why God hardens people. For instance, God hardened Pharoah's heart because Pharoah first hardened His heart seven times to God's command to let His people go. God hardened many in Israel, because they continually refused His grace.

Romans 9:18

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.​

Here we see that although God might harden a person's heart in judgment, this is not necessarily so. He might have mercy on someone instead. Whether someone is saved or not is still his choice.

God desires to have mercy on all, because all have sinned; but, as Paul explains in Romans 9, many of the Jews did not seek God by faith. That is why God hardened Israel.

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

In this passage, it's stated that God chose to justify only his chosen people and hardened the hearts of the rest. This idea may seem troubling, but it's important to reflect upon it. The author, Paul, is suggesting that God deliberately prevents some individuals from making a free choice. When someone's heart is hardened, it means that the possibility of changing their mind is closed off. Why did some in Israel not receive God's justification? The answer is simple: God did not will it.

That is your interpretation; however, let God speak for himself.

God is not causing our choices, and "Romans 2:4-9" is one of many Passages that shows how God desires our salvation, and is patient with us, but we have to be willing. READ what the Scriptures want us to know about our God of Love and Righteousness, who shows no favoritism.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“

Ezekiel 33:11 (WEB) Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die, house of Israel?”

God desires all to be saved, but God leaves the choice with each individual.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 (WEB) 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.

Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

God desires all to be saved, but will grant the gift of eternal life to those who will believe.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (EWEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

I understand your struggle with the idea of God creating human choice and also giving them a choice while warning them about the consequences of making a wrong decision. I get it. The two ideas seem to contradict one another. Conditional statements in the Bible logically infer human freedom. Human freedom is a necessary requirement for human responsibility.

I am just letting Scripture explain itself, while you are ignoring the context, and then you force your own understanding onto the text.

 

[setst777]

"Therefore, when an individual chooses to believe in Jesus of their own free will, God simultaneously creates that individual making that decision freely. Both occurrences are true at the same time. The logic of creation supersedes the logic of freedom."

Who is that quote from? There is nothing in the Scriptures that suggest the God "simultaneously creates that individual making that decision freely."

No, according to Paul, God hardens those whom he desires. Once he hardens a man, his ability to repent is foreclosed.

No one disagrees that God hardens whom he desires. To understand why God's desire to harden some and not others, you have to read the history of God's dealing with mankind, of which Paul teaches about in "Romans 1."

Yes, as long as we understand the logical order of justification. 1. God pours out his Spirit into our hearts first. (One must be born again.)

The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe to give them life, according to God's Word.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Can you answer this question by the Apostle Paul?

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? ...... [See again "Romans 10:14-21"]

2. When we encounter God's promise, we respond in faith, believing the gospel. 3. God grants us his justification. 4. We have peace with God.

No, justification and faith are gifts of grace. Salvation begins with an overture of God.

According to God's Word, we access God's saving grace by faith, just as Abraham did.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Grace is granted to those who have faith.

Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

Romans 4:3 (WEB) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

If God is saving a person, that person will endure to the end.

You reversed God's order, as revealed in His Word.

Matthew 24:11-13 (EWEB) 11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (EWEB) 19 By your endurance you will win your lives.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 36 Therefore, be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

Learn the difference between can fail and will fail. Peter, Paul, and James agree that an attested faith will never fail.

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning the faith”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There you go again. Higher, yes. More real, no. And why is ‘more real’ theologically important?

Picturing our existence as having transcendental levels of reality, helps us make sense of why human beings relate to stories, feel the emotions associated with the stories, gain wisdom and insight from stories, and are entertained by stories. It also helps us make sense of the Biblical perspective concerning God's attribute of transcendence and the concept of predestination.

In theological terms we are defining "real" as "resistance to going out of existence." God has a plenary existence. He can never cease to exist. Human beings are less real because, unlike God, they can cease to exist. Our existence is limited to our lifetime unless we are granted persistent existence by the creator. Sometimes when my family and I become overly excited during a movie, Zoe will say, "It's only a movie."

The movie analogy helps us understand another attribute of God -- his transcendence. From God's point of view, our lives are his movie.

We are discussing the concept of predestination, which suggests a certain level of determinism. The main issue is whether divine determinism cancels out human freedom and responsibility. Some argue that foreordination cannot be true because it not only negates human freedom but also leads to fatalism. Transcendent creation is the answer to this conundrum and what better way to understand transcendent creation than fictional narrative?

In my view, the ability to make our own decisions isn't the only attribute of a free will choice. Another attribute of Free Will is personal choice. My free will choices are decisions that I, personally own as mine. MY free will choices are decisions that I make, and they are the vector sum of my own desires, hopes, dreams, values, preferences, likes, dislikes, etc.

Fictional characters are often not portrayed as making arbitrary decisions. Instead, their choices are determined by their motives, personality, values, and other factors. For instance, in the case of Darth Vader, George Lucas wrote his character such that we can make sense of his motives and actions, providing us with a window into our own experience.

In essence, the Star Wars saga is an example of the work of a transcendent creator, George Lucas, who predestined the events, dialog, and choices of every character in the story. The story is not fatalistic—events and decisions matter. The story doesn't remove human agency or responsibility—it embraces it. And in the end, the good guys win, and the bad guys lose.

Bottom line: Predestination is not necessarily fatalistic, and it does not necessarily nullify freedom or responsibility. But human predestination only makes sense if we evaluate it from God's transcendental point of view.

 

[Wrangler]

Picturing our existence as having transcendental levels of reality, helps us make sense of why human beings relate to stories, feel the emotions associated with the stories, gain wisdom and insight from stories, and are entertained by stories.

Now you are invoking Circular Reasoning. "Picturing" our emotion based experience as different levels of reality does not make one level real and another level NOT real.

Transcendental does not mean more real. Cutting across general experience from specific is touching but not more real. A regular story is just as real as a transcendental story. (I'll read the rest of your reply when I can in a few hours).

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul is arguing his case from the OT Scriptures throughout "Romans 9."

Does he mention Jeremiah? No. His only OT examples serve to prove that salvation is a matter of God's choice.

It is through the preaching about Christ that we come to the knowledge about the salvation he offers us, but God will only saves those who believe in the Gospel being preached.

Yes. I agree. The piece you are missing is the fact that persistent, enduring belief is a gift of God's grace.

God always leaves the choice to believe or to refuse His grace completely on each individual.

Where does the Bible teach this? Aren't you making an assumption?

A sinner passes from death onto life by faith, not so he can believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus is giving us a descriptive statement about what happens. He is NOT giving us a prescriptive statement, that nullifies or neglects being born again, or the indwelling of the Spirit. Yes, he who hears and believes will be granted eternal life. But those who fall away will not be granted eternal life. So what keeps a person from falling away? The power of God himself. Remember Romans 5? An attested faith will never fail and his hope will not disappoint.

Peter says something similar.

1 Peter 1:3-7

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;​

according to His great mercy
Our salvation is not based on our own merit. God doesn't wait for us to do good deeds before He blesses us. That would be a reward for our efforts, and that's not how salvation works. Instead, we are saved by God's great mercy, which is His compassionate treatment of those who are in distress.

Whether we have the ability to believe and remain faithful or not is entirely up to us. If we do, then our salvation is based on our merit. However, if we don't have the power or strength of character to believe and remain faithful, God may grant us the ability to do so. In that case, our salvation is an act of mercy and grace.

has caused us to be born again
We don't have the power to believe and remain which is why God must pour out his Spirit into our hearts. We must be born again, and he is the agent of our rebirth, not us.

to obtain an inheritance
Both Peter and Paul refer to our salvation as an inheritance, which is an act of beneficence passed down from father to son. The son's right to the inheritance is not a matter of merit; it is a matter of relationship. Am I a son of God or not? The qualification for being a son (or daughter) is located inward. Anyone who has been given the Holy Spirit as an earnest will be granted the inheritance of the adoption as sons.

protected by the power of God
Our status as sons is guaranteed and protected by the power of God. Our endurance does not depend on our power or the strength of our character. God will bring us into the kingdom of his son and he will not allow us to fail or fall away.

proof of your faith
So we know that eternal life awaits those who believe and remain. Here the Apostle encourages his readers, giving them a basis for hope. A faith that is attested will never fail or fall away. And the faith that endures, remains by the power of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, "Romans 1" definitely shows us why God hardens people.

It isn't a question of why God hardens people. It's a matter of why he doesn't unharden them. Understand. The prophets report that someday God will give Israel a new heart and a new spirit so that they will obey the Law and truly live as his people. If he can do this for them, he can do this for anyone. You suggest that God is serving justice when he hardens a person's heart. Okay, what does he do when he serves mercy? He unhardens their heart.

For instance, God hardened Pharoah's heart because Pharoah first hardened His heart seven times to God's command to let His people go. God hardened many in Israel, because they continually refused His grace.

No, God did not harden Israel's hearts because they refused grace. He hardened their hearts because they refused to obey him. No one can refuse God's grace.

God desires to have mercy on all, because all have sinned; but, as Paul explains in Romans 9, many of the Jews did not seek God by faith. That is why God hardened Israel.

If God desired to have mercy on all, he would have mercy on all. Sin is no obstacle to God.

That is your interpretation; however, let God speak for himself.

I am. You just don't like what it says.

God desires all to be saved, but God leaves the choice with each individual.

Where does it say that God leaves the choice with each individual? We both agreed that God hardens hearts, which forecloses on individual choice. Can't have it both ways.

 

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Does he mention Jeremiah? No. His only OT examples serve to prove that salvation is a matter of God's choice.

Paul does not mention by name any of the OT books he quoted or referenced in Romans 9, but his Jewish audience would recognize the OT references Paul was using as his evidence, just as Christians do today.

Yes. I agree. The piece you are missing is the fact that persistent, enduring belief is a gift of God's grace.

That is your belief, but you have to prove it by Scripture. Sure, in general all humans, everything we have, is by God's grace; however, regarding the grace of salvation, that is accessed by faith in Lord Jesus no matter how much you protest.

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Where does the Bible teach this? Aren't you making an assumption?

Jesus is giving us a descriptive statement about what happens. He is NOT giving us a prescriptive statement, that nullifies or neglects being born again, or the indwelling of the Spirit. Yes, he who hears and believes will be granted eternal life. But those who fall away will not be granted eternal life. So what keeps a person from falling away?

Our faith is what keeps us from falling away. Faith is not guaranteed; rather, we are commanded and instructed to endure to the end to be saved. Salvation is guaranteed only to those who believe manifested by sowing to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

The power of God himself. Remember Romans 5? An attested faith will never fail and his hope will not disappoint.

Our hope in Christ does not disappoint because God is true to His promises. Nothing in Scripture states that God guarantees our faith; rather, that is a man-made doctrine that people force upon the text of Scripture.

Peter says something similar.

1 Peter 1:3-7

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;​

Peter is writing to Christians who believe. To those who believe, God caused us [believers] to be born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Read Acts 1 and 2, and you will see that the Spirit of God was poured out upon those who were already believers.

The Spirit will only indwell to give life those who first believe.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, {{{as the Scripture has said}}}, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

We are protected by the power of God through faith in Him. Remember the Power of God is the Gospel, and is by faith (continuous believing).

Romans 1:16-17 (EWEB)16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes (continuous believing), for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 (NIV) 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

It isn't a question of why God hardens people. It's a matter of why he doesn't unharden them.

Israel is God's Elect people, the apple of His eye; yet, they refused to listen to his instruction again and again.

Jeremiah 32:33 They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though "I taught them," teaching again and again, they would not "listen" and "receive instruction."

They resisted God's Word and God's Spirit, killing the prophets sent to them from God.

Acts 7:51-57 (WEB)
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute? They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One, of whom you have now become betrayers and murderers.

That is why God hardened Israel.

Understand. The prophets report that someday God will give Israel a new heart and a new spirit so that they will obey the Law and truly live as his people. If he can do this for them, he can do this for anyone. You suggest that God is serving justice when he hardens a person's heart. Okay, what does he do when he serves mercy? He unhardens their heart.

That will happen in the Millennial reign of Christ on earth.

At a time in the future, Israel will turn from their sins, and then God will heal them.

"Ezekiel 11:16-21" is the same prophecy of the New Covenant for the Jews as in "Ezekiel 36:25-27." But in "Ezekiel 11:16-21" we see an explanation of "how" and "when" the new heart and new spirit is given; in that, those who put away the detestable practices are the ones whom God will purify and give a new heart and spirit.

No, God did not harden Israel's hearts because they refused grace. He hardened their hearts because they refused to obey him. No one can refuse God's grace.

Obedience is not by the Law, but by faith, the faith of Abraham.

They refused God's salvation. They refused His Spirit.

Acts 7:51-57 (WEB)
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit!

If God desired to have mercy on all, he would have mercy on all. Sin is no obstacle to God.

God's intention is to have mercy on all, just as Scripture plainly states.

Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 (WEB) 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.

God desires all to be saved, but will grant the gift of eternal life to those who will believe. That is what the Scriptures teach.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (EWEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

I am. You just don't like what it says.

Where does it say that God leaves the choice with each individual? We both agreed that God hardens hearts, which forecloses on individual choice. Can't have it both ways.

God hardens in punishment those who continually refuse His grace.

God shows us all through the Scriptures, by his commands, warnings, admonitions, and teaching, that he is leaving the choice up to each individual to believe. For God's part, he desires to save all people.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“

As you can see, God is kind and patient with all mankind, desiring us to repent, leading us to repentance, but not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly was leading them to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed and created mankind to think and act according to His will.