TULIP an open discussion

[marks]

Jesus “redeems” us from condemnation by propitiating God’s wrath toward us

Why would God have wrath towards us?

There was a man who was married to a wonderful woman, and without any reason or provocation other than his own evil malice, he one day crept into their room as she slept, awoke her, and brutally murdered her, in abject terror until she died at his hand.

So let me ask you. Why would I be angry with this man? He's a character in my story. No matter how vividly I portray this story - a written paragraph, a movie, IMax, people on a planet, why would I be angry? It's just one of my characters, I wrote him that way! And if I were to enter my storyline as a part of the play, my anger would be faux, unless I became deluded, forgetting that I wrote all this.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Atonement must first be made by sacrifice before God can justly forgive anyone.

No. That is not true. God can, and does, forgive anyone anytime he wants.

I am quoting the Scriptures and you are rejecting them.

I am not rejecting the Scriptures. I am rejecting your interpretation of them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Oh, so now you finally agree (although not admitting it because of pride) after repeatedly denying it, that "redeem" means "purchase."

"If you think that's what I said, then I misspoke. The concept of redemption originates from the slave market. It refers to the money a man pays the slaveholder to release a slave. The man is not purchasing the slave. If he did, he would own the slave. But his intent is not to own the slave, but to set the slave free. The exchange involves payment, yes, but it isn't a purchase as you suggest."

According to the Gospel, redemption is necessary for God's justice.

I didn't say otherwise.

I should like to repeat this again. Redemption is an act of mercy, not an act of justice. The cross, which mollified God's wrath, was an act of mercy not the satisfaction of justice.

 

[Ritajanice]

Why would God have wrath towards us?

◄ Ephesians 2:3 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. New Living Translation All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else. English Standard Version among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Berean Standard Bible All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. Berean Literal Bible among whom we all also once lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of its thoughts; and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest.

 

[Behold]

. Do we exist independently of God?

Unbelievers exist spiritually separated from God.

The Born again, do not.

 

[Behold]

. It's purely God's domain to choose or not to choose a human being for salvation, based on his foreknowledge

Calvin also confused God Knowing everything before it happens.. (Foreknowledge) ...with causing it to happen..(Pre-destining).

So, if a Calvinist, can understand that KNOWING what is about to happen, is not the same as "predestining it",, but they can't SEE it.

One of the "spell binding" issues with John Calvinism, is it "mind blinds" the disciple of Calvin, so that they cannot understand that "knowing" is not the same as "causing"

"ForeKNOWing", is not the same as 'pre-destining".

A.) = God's Foreknowledge, is not to pre-destine.....its only to FORE-KNOW...

Calvinist's cannot SEE this, because Calvinism blinds the mind, so that all the Calvinist can UNDERSTAND and SEE, is what Calvin's theology has LED them ("Bewitched") them to believe.

 

[Ritajanice]

◄ Ephesians 1:11 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, New Living Translation Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. English Standard Version In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, Berean Standard Bible In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, Berean Literal Bible in Him, in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One working all things according to the counsel of His will

 

[CadyandZoe]

We've been around this before. If he treats his characters as though they were autonomous when they are not, then I'd say he's deluded, failing to realize he is attributing characteristics to things which lack such. He's written a story and has lost touch with the fact that he's written a story.

I don't understand your point.

Let's look at it another way.

He's written a story, and is seeking the fulfillment of personal relationship with his characters. This reminds me of when I played with my GI Joe dolls. I made up stories for them, set up the scenarios, I think my favorite was the moon walker. But I never became confused between my toys and my friends.

Well, you put your finger on another aspect of transcendence. God is not seeking a personal relationship with his characters. Just as an author can never have a personal relationship with the characters in his novel, God can not have a personal relationship with us. Just as a boy can't have a personal relationship with his GI Joe figures, God can't have a personal relationship with us.

But Jesus, who is God incarnate, is able to relate to human beings and we are able to relate to him on a personal level. Paul argued this very point in his epistle to the Hebrews. His opponents claimed that Jesus couldn't be the Messiah because the Messiah would be "an angel of the Lord. Paul argues to the contrary, that it was fitting that the Messiah be a human being so that we might relate to him. Jesus has suffered everything we suffer, which makes him a fitting high priest on our behalf. (Hebrews 2)

Other scriptures tell us that God the Father is a transcendent being. My analogy of an author and a novel is not intended to prove that God is transcendent. I use the analogy to provide an example of transcendence from our own experience that might help us understand our ontological relationship to God.

Paul urges his readers to have a clear understanding of ourselves as "the thing molded." He suggests that we are continually being shaped, and God applies pressure to our lives in order for our Christian maturity to develop. This means that our experience of God is very intimate. He is actively involved in shaping us and applying the right amount of pressure to create something beautiful in his eyes.

Let's look at it one more way.

He's written the story, and the story is us, and all our days, and all our choices, all our opinions, all our feelings, all is written, the story he wrote. And in this story, he presents himself, and he presents us, he tells us all about himself, and all about us. He tells us a story of a Creator God who commands against sin, and though the people sinned, yet he offers redemption to all who will come. He declares the world forgiven reconciled, and to those who will receive him, he will give new and eternal life. He tells us he is not only true, but is truth. But he's holding back a secret. It's not true. It's not really whosever, because after all, this is his story that he wrote, and these things are all preplanned.

I should encourage us to use all of our effort to maintain the category distinction between God's transcendence and his Immanence. I liked your explanation, but it inadvertently confused God's transcendence with his Immanence at the end. Bear in mind that when God wants to make his presence known within his creation, he typically speaks through a theophany, an angel, or a prophet.

In other words, if reality is a story that God is telling, he must write a character into the story to represent him. If I wanted to write a story about how the GI Joes and I successfully defeated Cobra Commander, I would need to create a character who represents me in the story. I might, for instance, create a character called "Captain Crank." Everything that Captain Crank does in the story is what I would do. And everything that Captain Crank says in the story is what I would say. This is how the transcendent author of a novel is also immanent in the novel.

Anyway, if you would allow me to use your fine example to help me make my point (and this is not meant to be critical at all.)

He's written the story, and the story is us, and all our days, and all our choices, all our opinions, all our feelings, all is written, the story he wrote.

Here, you have described God's transcendent standpoint.

And in this story, he presents himself, and he presents us, he tells us all about himself, and all about us.

Here is where we see God's Immanence. As John said, "No one can see God and live", which is why God must present himself as a theophany or an angel. For instance, Moses first "saw" Yahweh in a burning bush. But also, the OT typically refers to God as "the Angel of the Lord." In essence, whether theophany or angel, these are examples of God writing himself into the story he is creating.

He tells us a story of a Creator God who commands against sin, and though the people sinned, yet he offers redemption to all who will come. He declares the world forgiven and reconciled; to those who will receive him, he will give new and eternal life. He tells us he is not only true, but is truth.

Here, it wouldn't hurt to repeat the idea that your description above represents God in his immanence. He has written himself into the story, which means that his theophany or Angel relates to his people as any other character would. It was the Angel of the Lord and Moses who commanded against sin, both of which are characters in the story. God doesn't relate to his creations directly. His interaction with created beings is mediated through other created beings. For instance, God spoke to Moses through a burning bush that was never consumed. The information Moses received was indirectly conveyed or communicated through an object that didn't act like an ordinary object.

God offers redemption to all who will come, but his offer is indirectly communicated through a representative or a theophany.

But he's holding back a secret. It's not true. It's not really whosever, because after all, this is his story that he wrote, and these things are all preplanned.

Okay, here is where we need to pay extra-special* attention to our standpoint. By what criteria do we evaluate the veracity of God's offer? Correct me if I am wrong, but I think your objection can be restated like this. Since God is writing a story about someone making a choice, then the choice isn't real and the offer isn't a real offer. We are only being given a false appearance of choice rather than an actual choice.

To answer this objection we should note a profound feature of transcendent reality. God is more real than we are. Ultimately, he is the Most Real Being. The genuineness of God's offer must be evaluated from our standpoint, our reality, and our subjectivity. Objective reality exists independently of our thoughts or feelings, but it doesn't exist independently of God's thoughts or feelings.

The offer of "whosoever" makes sense within the plot of history, where cause and effect are subject to the laws and rules of an objective reality that exists outside of our minds but inside the mind of God.

Why is this important? To some, all this talk about predestination might appear to be a waste of time and energy. But I think predestination is one of the fundamental arguments for the existence of God that Isaiah offers his readers. Isaiah makes his argument against Idolatry. He points out that the idol is nothing but wood and other materials that came from nature. Some argue back to Isaiah that he lacked understanding because the idol is not the god itself, it simply represents the god. But Isaiah's point is this. Just as the form of the idol came from the imagination of man, the god itself is also a figment of his imagination.

To prove that Yahweh isn't a figment of the imagination of the Hebrews, the Lord declares that he will bring about a future event, which none of the other so-called gods is able to do. And in this way, when it comes to pass, Israel will know that Yahweh is God. He isn't talking about foreknowledge or prescience. Knowing the future doesn't make someone a god. But creating the future does. (Isaiah 40)


_________________
* "extra-special" is an expression my grandmother used. She would ask me to sweep the kitchen floor and "do an extra-special job."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why would God have wrath towards us?

There was a man who was married to a wonderful woman, and without any reason or provocation other than his own evil malice, he one day crept into their room as she slept, awoke her, and brutally murdered her, in abject terror until she died at his hand.

So let me ask you. Why would I be angry with this man? He's a character in my story. No matter how vividly I portray this story - a written paragraph, a movie, IMax, people on a planet, why would I be angry? It's just one of my characters, I wrote him that way! And if I were to enter my storyline as a part of the play, my anger would be faux, unless I became deluded, forgetting that I wrote all this.

Much love!

You've never been angry at an injustice you saw in a movie?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Unbelievers exist spiritually separated from God.

The Born again, do not.

But the claim was made. "Sin would not be possible if human agency were a strict extension of divine will." This seems like an interesting question, given Peter's argument that Israel murdered Jesus according to the divine will of God.

 

[setst777]

No. That is not true. God can, and does, forgive anyone anytime he wants.

Unlike the OT sacrifices for sins, Lord Jesus' sacrifice of himself does not have to be repeated.

Hebrews 7:26-27 (WEB) 26 For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself.

God can now completely forgive and cleanse all those who come near to him through Christ Jesus because Lord Jesus bore all our sins for us on the cross, shedding his own blood for our sins.

1 Peter 2:24 (KJV) 24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Hebrews 9:22 (WEB) In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Ephesians 1:17 (WEB) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

1 John 1:7 (WEB) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Hebrews 9:24-29 (WEB) 24 For Christ hasn’t entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own, 26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.

I am not rejecting the Scriptures. I am rejecting your interpretation of them.

Your answer is puzzling, because, as anyone reading these messages can see for themselves, I am only introducing the Scriptures and letting the Scriptures do the talking, only interjecting on rare occasion to make the grammar understood, or to answer your objection.

You can object all you want, but you have not shown that I interpreted, or interpreted in error, any of the verses. All you can say is that you object. Noted, but it makes no difference to the facts presented because you did not show any errors.

setst777 said:
Oh, so now you finally agree (although not admitting it because of pride) after repeatedly denying it, that "redeem" means "purchase."

"If you think that's what I said, then I misspoke.

CadyandZoe said: Jesus paid for our redemption with his life, but his death wasn't the payment of a moral obligation. His death on the cross is the propitiation of our sins, not the payment of our sins.

In what way did Lord Jesus pay for redemption if not from sin to bring believers to God (and use Scripture that refers to the redemption)?

Question: What did Jesus' payment purchase?

No one would disagree that Christ's sacrifice was a propitiation, since he was made substitute (substitute Lamb) for sinners to take away the sins of everyone who repents and believes in Lord Jesus.

1 Peter 2:24 (KJV) 24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us (believers) from all iniquity

Christ death redeemed believers from sin; and so, he purchased us for God from sin.

Revelation 5:9 They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals: for you were killed, and purchased us [believers] for God with your blood out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, 10 and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”

Acts 20:28 (WEB) the assembly [believers] of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.

Christ's sacrifice of himself, the shedding of His blood, therefore, satisfied God's justice and so, appeasing God's wrath against sinners who repent.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Romans 3:23-24 (WEB)
23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
24 being justified freely by [Greek: #3588 tē] his grace
through [Greek: dia] the [Greek: #3588 tēs] redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Strong's Concordance #3588
tē, tēs: definite article
Usage: the, the definite article.

Strong's Concordance #1223
dia: through, on account of, because of

According to "Romans 3:23-24," we are justified by God's grace because of, or on account of, the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

The word "by" in "by his grace" is a definite article, not a preposition or junction.

Therefore "by" is not in the actual Greek; rather, the word "by" is used to make the sentence readable. There is no word "by" in the actual Greek in that verse. And so, we are definitely justified {{{through}}} the redemption in Christ Jesus, and this is made possible because God is gracious.

God can now justly display mercy, grace and forgive sins because God's justice was provided for by the redemption - the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29).

Hebrews 9:22 (WEB) In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Christ, as the sacrifice, is what redeemed us from our sins.

As you say, Jesus paid for our redemption.

CadyandZoe said: Jesus paid for our redemption with his life

That redemption was payment for our sins to be God's possession for everyone who believes.

Redemption means "payment to release" or "ransom."

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem [Gk: lutroó] us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

Strong's Concordance #3084 lutroó
lutroó: to release by paying a ransom, to redeem
Original Word: λυτρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lutroó
Phonetic Spelling: (loo-tro'-o)
Definition: to release by paying a ransom, to redeem
Usage: I release on receipt of ransom; mid: I redeem, release by paying ransom, liberate.

Strong's Greek: 3084. λυτρόω (lutroó) -- to release by paying a ransom, to redeem

Without Christ's redeeming work on the cross, there is no forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 1:17 (WEB) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

1 John 1:7 (WEB) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

 

[setst777]

The concept of redemption originates from the slave market.

That is a good understanding, since Christ sacrifice redeems us (believers) from our sins purchasing us for God as from a marketplace with his blood.

Revelation 5:9 and purchased [Greek: agorazó] us for God with your blood out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,

Strong's Concordance #59 agorazó
agorazó: to buy in the marketplace, purchase

Acts 20:28 (WEB) the assembly of God which he purchased with his own blood.

Christ is our substitute; in that, he was sacrificed as payment to sins - sins that kept us (sinners who believe) captive to death and separation from God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us so that in him, we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 2:24 (WEB) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness. You were healed by his wounds.

It refers to the money a man pays the slaveholder to release a slave. The man is not purchasing the slave. If he did, he would own the slave. But his intent is not to own the slave, but to set the slave free.

That is a good description of the word "redemption." Certainly, God is our Redeemer who purchased believers from slavery and bondage to sin and death by the sacrifice of His Son. Christ, as our redeemer, purchased us (believers) for God from sin.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

Revelation 5:9 (WEB) and bought us for God with your blood out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,

he exchange involves payment, yes, but it isn't a purchase as you suggest."

If redemption is payment, then why didn't it purchase anything?

What did Christ's redemption pay for if not for sin to bring sinners who believe to God?

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

Acts 20:28 (WEB) Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.

Revelation 5:9 (WEB) and bought us for God with your blood out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,

setst777 said: According to the Gospel, redemption is necessary for God's justice.

I didn't say otherwise.

Yes you did. For example:

CadyandZoe said: Did it cost Jesus his life? Yes, but did his death satisfy justice? No. Our sins are forgiven, not punished.

CadyandZoe said: The idea that the cross paid for our sins contradicts Paul's clear assertion that we are being justified as a gift by His grace. A gift is not wages.

CadyandZoe said: Paul isn't saying that Jesus paid our debt.

setst777 said: Christ's death pleased God because God's justice was satisfied by the shedding of his blood.

CadyandZoe said: No. Justice was not satisfied. God was mollified by the cross, but not because justice was satisfied. God was mollified because Jesus allowed himself to suffer death on the cross to demonstrate God's righteousness.

CadyandZoe said: The error in your theology is your assumption that "redemption" means "satisfaction of justice", which it does not.

CadyandZoe said: No, our disagreement is over your position that Christ shed his blood on the cross to satisfy justice, which is not a Biblical idea.

I should like to repeat this again. Redemption is an act of mercy, not an act of justice. The cross, which mollified God's wrath, was an act of mercy not the satisfaction of justice.

Redemption is an act of mercy for sinners, but not an act of mercy on Christ - who was sacrificed the sinners' behalf.

God paid a heavy price because he had mercy on sinners - for God so love the world (John 3:16).

That act of mercy, by offering His Son in our place for our sins, satisfies God's justice, appeasing God's wrath, so that he can now display His grace in forgiving sins of those who believe in His Son.

1 John 1:7 (WEB) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption (payment) through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh really, interesting.

I don’t find it unscriptural as God tells us how we are Born Again and it’s not by the will of man ,it’s by the will of God..
He tells us how we are Born Again...no way does he tell us when..only the minute he regenerates us, then we know by the witness of the Holy Spirit, who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...we must have the witness of the Spirit, he is the only one who can witness Gods truth to our heart/ spirit...as Spirit gives birth to spirit...all biblical, so not sure how you have come to the conclusion that it’s unscriptural?
God is the one who makes us Born Again..he never presented me with any evidence whatsoever ....it was by” His Will” that I became Born Again....all biblical.

How can God give you evidence ?...what do you mean evidence?xxok, sorry you’ve just explained the evidence...

That’s not how he says we are Born Again, by giving us evidence..that’s unscriptural,xx

You can’t know God without the witness of the Holy Spirit...how could you know God without His Spirit?

I’m not saying you don’t have his Spirit...I’m just asking you the question,xx

There is no doubt in my mind that it was GOD who PUT THE NEW DESIRE into my heart .
One morning i woke up as usual
and then later that afternoon a small stirring began and my whole direction was changed
from the love of darkness and world to the LOVE OF GOD going after HIM .
HE DID that . I did not change me and i did not put the desire into me . GOD DID .
It was like i was a new person going right after GOD . I DIDNT DO THAT . HE DID .
any guesses what book he put me into to learn . The lovely bible .
THE DESIRE came FROM GOD and not the flesh . like i said that morning i had woken up
the same old man with the same old sinful desires
but on that DAY IT ALL CHANGED . While i had not the knowlege , wisdom , or understanding
that by grace i do today , THE HEART ITSELF was changed by GOD . HE did that . To HE we owe ALL .

 

[amigo de christo]

Let any who glories , GLORY IN THE GLORIOUS LORD .

 

[setst777]

You've never been angry at an injustice you saw in a movie?

Did he create the movie? If so, why should he be angry for creating the characters the way he did?

 

[Ritajanice]

There is no doubt in my mind that it was GOD who PUT THE NEW DESIRE into my heart .
One morning i woke up as usual
and then later that afternoon a small stirring began and my whole direction was changed
from the love of darkness and world to the LOVE OF GOD going after HIM .
HE DID that . I did not change me and i did not put the desire into me . GOD DID .
It was like i was a new person going right after GOD . I DIDNT DO THAT . HE DID .
any guesses what book he put me into to learn . The lovely bible .
THE DESIRE came FROM GOD and not the flesh . like i said that morning i had woken up
the same old man with the same old sinful desires
but on that DAY IT ALL CHANGED . While i had not the knowlege , wisdom , or understanding
that by grace i do today , THE HEART ITSELF was changed by GOD . HE did that . To HE we owe ALL .

Thanks for your testimony..

As you see also...I posted my testimony and belief.."..plus as we see God seems to come to us all so very differently......

Romans 8

King James Version

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[amigo de christo]

Thanks for your testimony..

As you see also...I posted my testimony and belief.."..plus as we see God seems to come to us all so very differently......

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is why i remind folks to read the bible . Look at what you just brought . reminders from a letter in the bible .
The more we read it the more it reminds and stirs us up to remembrance . Just as both peter and paul said themselves .
By grace the more i read it and continue to read it the more rightly divided it simply becomes .
As you know many leaders have taught many concepts and things as they twisted the scrips to FIT their own thoughts .
But the more we read it for ourselves the far better off we would have been .
That is why i continually remind us all to read it for ourselves .
There are so many thoughts , so much info floating around that men often ponder on and teach
and yet often them thoughts and things they do teach are Contradicting the simple truth itself .
But i do warn and remind us all , these teachers that do this have well learned to twist things and do
decieve . So my encouragemnt to all today is , just get in the bible and stay refreshed and let us
learn it well . Be encouraged my friend .

 

[Ritajanice]

This is why i remind folks to read the bible . Look at what you just brought . reminders from a letter in the bible .
The more we read it the more it reminds and stirs us up to remembrance . Just as both peter and paul said themselves .
By grace the more i read it and continue to read it the more rightly divided it simply becomes .
As you know many leaders have taught many concepts and things as they twisted the scrips to FIT their own thoughts .
But the more we read it for ourselves the far better off we would have been .
That is why i continually remind us all to read it for ourselves .
There are so many thoughts , so much info floating around that men often ponder on and teach
and yet often them thoughts and things they do teach are Contradicting the simple truth itself .
But i do warn and remind us all , these teachers that do this have well learned to twist things and do
decieve . So my encouragemnt to all today is , just get in the bible and stay refreshed and let us
learn it well . Be encouraged my friend .

Brother, I was chosen and predestined according to God’s purpose and plan, do you understand what that means?

He chose you to preach the word?

He chose me to deliver from the heart, he leads me every day my dear friend , I do not lead myself, ....he speaks to many people through me, I’m his mouth piece, that is my opinion/ testimony and belief..xx

Today in the supermarket, he was showing shoppers kindness through me, and no, I’m not going into detail, you imo should understand what I’m saying.xx

Let the light of Jesus shine out of us, for people to see,!

Much more to being a Born Again than reading his word...we go out into the world etc,etc.

Let people see Jesus fruit in us?

Let the world see that Jesus lives in us...

 

[CadyandZoe]

Unlike the OT sacrifices for sins, Lord Jesus' sacrifice of himself does not have to be repeated.

Agreed. Nonetheless, God didn't need the cross to forgive anyone. Paul argues that the cross demonstrated God's righteousness. It was not the means to forgiveness. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in HIM shall have eternal life.

In other words, if someone is seeking eternal life, they must deal with Jesus Christ. God has granted Him the authority to forgive sins.

Matthew 9:5-7

Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” And he got up and went home.​

The son of man forgives our sins. How does this happen? Jesus entered the Heavenly temple and he intercedes for the saints. He is our high priest. And The Father grants the Son's request because the Father's delight toward Jesus overshadows his wrath toward us.

The cross is the means to our propitiation, not the means to satisfy justice.

God can now completely forgive and cleanse all those who come near to him through Christ Jesus because Lord Jesus bore all our sins for us on the cross, shedding his own blood for our sins.

God has given the son authority to forgive sins as he said. Because of our sins, we can't draw near to God ourselves. But Jesus, our advocate, can draw near to the Father and ask the father to grant us eternal life and the Father will hear his Son because of his delight toward Jesus.

1 Peter 2:24 (KJV) 24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Yes, Jesus bore our sins. But we are discussing the reason why he bore them and to what effect he bore them.

Hebrews 9:22 (WEB) In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

This is only true if the sacrifice represents a truly genuine contrition and penitence.

Ephesians 1:17 (WEB) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

Redemption frees a slave. Thus, the cross is an act of mercy and grace, not an act of justice.

1 John 1:7 (WEB) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

We are "cleansed" from sin because the cross became the means of propitiation. God's wrath was mollified, qualifying Jesus to be our high priest. Our sins are forgiven because Jesus forgave them and he will intercede on our behalf, appealing to God to grant us eternal life.

Your answer is puzzling, because, as anyone reading these messages can see for themselves, I am only introducing the Scriptures and letting the Scriptures do the talking, only interjecting on rare occasion to make the grammar understood, or to answer your objection.

Your answers are incomplete, which makes them confusing. You maintain the satisfaction theory of the atonement, believing that Jesus' death was necessary to satisfy God's justice. You haven't provided a scripture to support your beliefs.

You can object all you want, but you have not shown that I interpreted, or interpreted in error, any of the verses.

Well, it isn't for lack of trying.

It all comes down to the definition of terms. My answers are focused on the actual definitions of the words you seem to misunderstand. I mentioned that "redeem" or "redemption" doesn't indicate satisfaction of justice, but rather an act of mercy where one individual buys freedom for another. I also pointed out that "propitiation" is the act of calming the wrath of God, and its primary essence is to bring delight to God.

In what way did Lord Jesus pay for redemption if not from sin to bring believers to God (and use Scripture that refers to the redemption)?

You speak as if I rejected the idea that Jesus paid for our sins. I did not reject that idea. Jesus paid for our sins but not in the manner and to the effect that some Christian denominations propose. According to the teaching of some denominations, Jesus' death was a necessary act to satisfy God's justice. Jesus' death satisfied God's by paying the penalty for human sin. It views sin as a debt owed to God, and Christ's sacrifice serves as the payment to settle that debt.

I take issue with this theory of atonement, which is both unbiblical and immoral.

Paul describes the cross as the means to redemption, which is not a way to pay the penalty for sin. Redemption is a way to pay for the release of a slave or a prisoner. This is not a matter of justice; it's a matter of mercy.

Try to work out the implied logic of Satisfaction. If Jesus paid the penalty for human sin, then eternal life isn't a matter of mercy, it is a matter of justice. And since justice is served on my behalf this means that God OWES me eternal life. I realize that most people never think about it this way but this is exactly what the theory of substitutionary or satisfaction atonement means.

Question: What did Jesus' payment purchase?

No one would disagree that Christ's sacrifice was a propitiation, since he was made substitute (substitute Lamb) for sinners to take away the sins of everyone who repents and believes in Lord Jesus.

But you are saying more than that. You affirm that the cross of Christ satisfied our debt to justice. I take issue with that.

Christ death redeemed believers from sin; and so, he purchased us for God from sin.

Agreed. But I believe our disagreement centers on the "economy" of the exchange. Jesus freed us from sin. I think we agree on that. Jesus' payment bought us freedom from sin. But the exchange didn't involve paying our dept to justice. Our sins are forgiven, not punished.

Christ's sacrifice of himself, the shedding of His blood, therefore, satisfied God's justice and so, appeasing God's wrath against sinners who repent.

There is no verse in the Bible to make your point that Christ satisfied God's justice.

According to "Romans 3:23-24," we are justified by God's grace because of, or on account of, the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Yes, redemption, not justice.

God can now justly display mercy, grace and forgive sins because God's justice was provided for by the redemption - the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29).

Your statement is contradictory. Either God accepted payment for our sins or he forgave our sins. It can't be both.

Christ, as the sacrifice, is what redeemed us from our sins.

Yes, redemption FROM sin, not payment FOR sin.

Redemption means "payment to release" or "ransom."

Right.

Without Christ's redeeming work on the cross, there is no forgiveness of sins.

Right.
Redemption = release FROM sin.

 

[amigo de christo]

Brother, I was chosen and predestined according to God’s purpose and plan, do you understand what that means?

He chose you to preach the word?

He chose me to deliver from the heart, he leads me every day my dear friend , I do not lead myself, ....he speaks to many people through me, I’m his mouth piece, that is my opinion/ testimony and belief..xx

Today in the supermarket, he was showing shoppers kindness through me, and no, I’m not going into detail, you imo should understand what I’m saying.xx

Let the light of Jesus shine out of us, for people to see,!

Much more to being a Born Again than reading his word...we go out into the world etc,etc.

Let people see Jesus fruit in us?

Let the world see that Jesus lives in us...

You still misunderstand . i never once said ALL WE NEED DO is JUST read the bible .
I just said TIME TO READ IT .
and if i was predistend to preach the word then why are so many resisting this .
think on that . I am simply remidning us to READ the words and be refreshed in that bible .
WHY is it , what is it about the bible that bothers you , why is it my message to read it
does bother you . Some have told me the same thing in times past.
HEY AMIGO , READ YOUR BIBLE . AND I JUST JOYED AND REJOICED WHEN THEY DID .
EVEN THOUGH , by grace I DO Read it . I DIDNT come after them and tell them to SHUT UP
and stop reminding me . something in the scrips does bother you rita .
I bet you dont have peace just reading it as a whole anymore . rather something in it is bothering you
We are to shine the light , we are to let people see the fruit and work of GOD amongst us
EVEN THE SCRIPS says that . SO what is your problem with these reminders i do give .
HECK if you or anyone told me to BE reading my bible daily , You wont see me saying , HOW dare thee
I do read it . NOPE i would faint with joy .