Tulip

[OzSpen]

I’ve heard this explanation before but it will not wash with the Bible. If I took your method of interpretation by utilizing grammar, history, and cultural context, to define, explain and lead to an understanding of Scripture, pretty soon I will not have a Bible. Why? Because according to your method of interpretation I am not a Jew, therefore, those epistles and books are not written for me. See how ridiculous this concept is?

Jun,

You have created a straw man fallacy concerning what I wrote. This is an invention of what I did not state.

Please share with me the meaning of the following statements from Scripture:

• 'women will be saved through childbearing' (1 Tim 2:15 NLT);
• 'You are the salt of the earth' (Matt 5:13 NIV);
• 'Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says' (1 Cor 14:34 NIV). Yet in 1 Cor 11:5. women are told they can prophesy: 'But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as having her head shaved'. So here we have women who can prophesy (something one cannot do with silence) and yet they are told that they are not allowed to speak. How come?
• 'Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?' (1 Cor 15:29 NIV).

Where in the Bible does it state that for accurate biblical interpretation I must not use the grammar of the sentences and investigation of historical or cultural background?

I look forward to your response.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace said:

T: If man is totally depraved, why is he capable of doing good?


Depends on what your concept of “good” is. Jesus said, “Why call me good?” There is none good but one, that is, God.

U: Could you imagine that God chose some to go to hell? Why even create man then?

You will NOT find such language in Scripture. Man go to hell because he is a sinner! The wages of sin is death and all have sinned, no exceptions.


L: Jesus died only for a select few. The bible teaches that God wants all men to be saved. Then, whether or not they choose to is up to them.

Matt 1:21 teaches that Jesus died for the sins of His people. God is a loving and gracious God and cares for His creation, that is He does not wish that any believer should perish. Consider: Matt 23:37.


I: If we could not say no to God, it means we're little robots. Love must be freely given. We have free will. This is because we're made in God's image and HIS will is free.

I would rather be a robot and be in heaven than have free will and go to hell. After man sinned, he lost all fellowship along with the image and likeness he had with God. Most of all, he lost his free will and can only choose for evil.


P: We must believe and trust in Jesus at the time of our death.

Man in and of himself cannot persevere unless he is indwelt by the Spirit of Jesus. It is Jesus who is the giver of life that lives and perseveres in the life of a believer.

To God Be The Glory

Well J, if we take all of the TULIP together, it's biting off quite a bit.
What bothers me the most of this teaching is the U...
Unconditional Election

This means that God makes the determination as to who is saved and who is not. Free will is totally removed from those that believe in Calvinism. God does all the choosing.

You said above that we are all sinners and we all deserve to go to hell.
I agree. So why don't we all go to hell?
Because God, chooses some to go to heaven.
Isn't that nice of Him?
So YOU are one of the lucky ones, I would assume. What about those that are not so lucky? Is God then a just God to base His picking and choosing on who knows what and not give man an opportunity to save Himself?

In Genesis 3:15 God tells the serpent that He will put enmity between him (the serpent) and her seed (Jesus). Why say this at all? If God is going to be the one to choose who is going to be saved, why put any enmity at all between satan and Jesus? What would be the possible purpose?

Acts 17:31
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Isaiah 30:18
Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.

How is God a righteous God if He does not give every man the chance to enter into heaven?
Is God not a God of love?

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And how do you explain this verse?
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And, last but not least by any means, scripture that covers all of the above:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

God so loved THE WORLD that WHOSOEVER believes in His Son shall NOT PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE.

Instead of answering me by throwing YOUR scripture back at me, why not answer the above first? It would be interesting to hear your POV.
Then, I'll be happy to answer your verses.

 

[bbyrd009]

The only thing we have to do is pay taxes and die.
And you don't even have to pay taxes if you're willing to pay the consequences.

amen, that is strictly for those who need money to live

 

[Jun2u]

@GG, said:

Instead of answering me by throwing YOUR scripture back at me, why not answer the above first? It would be interesting to hear your POV.
Then, I'll be happy to answer your verses

Fair enough. It will not only be interesting but I must warn you my answers might not be to your liking but I assure you it shall be the truth derived from Scripture.

Most people, whether you agree or disagree, do not know how to read or understand Scripture dots the, and especially not know how to connect the dots so to speak. They read the Bible like it is an ordinary book instead of a Holy and Spiritual Book. In fact, Scripture agrees for we read in 1 Corinthians 2:11-16:

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the Spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the world yet also the most misunderstood. If we isolate this verse from the rest of Scripture it seems to say all we have to do is “believe” in Jesus and we shall be saved. Well, the devils also believe but they tremble.

The key words in this passage are the word “so” and “whosoever” and both words must be qualified. The word “so” can be translated as “thus” or “in this manner,” and the word “whosoever” can only be those who truly believe that the Father drew and gave to Jesus as in John 6:44; 37.

Now it is possible to read John 3:16 without altering it’s meaning this way:

For God in this manner [so] loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that the true believers [whosoever] should not perish but have everlasting life.

In other words, God does not want that any believer should perish but have everlasting life.

If you look at this verse any other way than the word “whosoever” to mean anyone and everyone, then you will be in violation of Romans 3 where God declares there is none righteous no, not one there is none that seeks after God, no, not one.

The reason people don’t like “unconditional election” is because it robs them of their glory or ego that somehow they had a part in their salvation by accepting, believing, confessing, reciting the sinner’s prayer, and whatever else they do to admit Jesus is their Lord and Saviour. All these are alien to the Bible and they completely ignore Matthew 1:21.

See Ezekiel 36:24-27. There it is God who is the prime mover NEVER man.

To God Be The Glory

 

[GodsGrace]

@GG, said:

Instead of answering me by throwing YOUR scripture back at me, why not answer the above first? It would be interesting to hear your POV.
Then, I'll be happy to answer your verses

Fair enough. It will not only be interesting but I must warn you my answers might not be to your liking but I assure you it shall be the truth derived from Scripture.

Most people, whether you agree or disagree, do not know how to read or understand Scripture dots the, and especially not know how to connect the dots so to speak. They read the Bible like it is an ordinary book instead of a Holy and Spiritual Book. In fact, Scripture agrees for we read in 1 Corinthians 2:11-16:

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the Spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the world yet also the most misunderstood. If we isolate this verse from the rest of Scripture it seems to say all we have to do is “believe” in Jesus and we shall be saved. Well, the devils also believe but they tremble.

The key words in this passage are the word “so” and “whosoever” and both words must be qualified. The word “so” can be translated as “thus” or “in this manner,” and the word “whosoever” can only be those who truly believe that the Father drew and gave to Jesus as in John 6:44; 37.

Now it is possible to read John 3:16 without altering it’s meaning this way:

For God in this manner [so] loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that the true believers [whosoever] should not perish but have everlasting life.

In other words, God does not want that any believer should perish but have everlasting life.

If you look at this verse any other way than the word “whosoever” to mean anyone and everyone, then you will be in violation of Romans 3 where God declares there is none righteous no, not one there is none that seeks after God, no, not one.

The reason people don’t like “unconditional election” is because it robs them of their glory or ego that somehow they had a part in their salvation by accepting, believing, confessing, reciting the sinner’s prayer, and whatever else they do to admit Jesus is their Lord and Saviour. All these are alien to the Bible and they completely ignore Matthew 1:21.

See Ezekiel 36:24-27. There it is God who is the prime mover NEVER man.

To God Be The Glory

Of course your answers won't be to my liking!
But we can still talk.
Truth derived from scripture, as you say, should not be changed.
In order to hold to Calvinism, one must change the meaning of words:
All does not mean all
Whosoever does not mean whosoever.
You've given me new meanings for these words which are not only unacceptable to me, but to anyone reading along.

All, as in all the world, means ALL as in everyone.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
all
ɔːl/
predeterminer, determiner, & pronoun

1. 1.
   used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
   "all the people I met"
   sinonimi: each of, each one of the, every one of the, every single one of the;

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
whosoever
WHOSOEVER, pron. who, so, and ever. Any one; any person whatever.

Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. Revelations 22.

Definitions from Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

It's rather unfortunate that we have to start off with definitions of two words that are known by everyone and their meaning has already been established and accepted.

1 Corinthians 2:11-16
Are you saying that non-calvinists do not understand scripture?
I'm going to assume, and I believe rightly so, that both you and I are understanding the scripture in the spirit. Of course, one of us has to be wrong.

Who could it be? I was discussing how WE choose to be saved. This would require free will, which you do not believe we have.
So, I choose to believe in free will.
You choose not to believe in free will.
God gave both of us the spirit to believe. Could He be creating a confusion in us? God is not a God of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33
So, if I'm CHOOSING to believe in free will, doesn't this fact alone prove that I have free will? Or else, God will certainly be a God of confusion if He does not teach us both the same principle.

John 3:16
The words must not be qualified. They mean what they mean.
Here it is in the YLT:
"For God did SO LOVE THE WORLD, that His Son - the only begotten -
He gave, that EVERYONE who is believing in Him may not perish, but may have life age-during."

In any version of the bible you read, you will find the above translation.
Is it possible that every translator made a mistake until Calvin came along and taught us how to read words that have always been understood?

God loved THE WORLD. The world means EVERYONE - not just those that God had chosen. It says that EVERYONE who believes in Jesus will have everlasting life, not those who God had chosen.
And if you continue on to verse 17 and 18:
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God sent His Son into THE WORLD so that THE WORLD might be saved through Him..and who in the world? Those that BELIEVE IN HIM - have already been judged and HE (those) who do not believe in Him have been judged already.

And why? Because God did not choose them? NO.
Because those who do not BELIEVE in Him have already been judged, they were born lost.

From all the above verses, it's shown that we CHOOSE if we want to BELIEVE in Jesus or not. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God chooses us on an individual basis for salvation.

I give you also Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus stands at the door and KNOCKS. It's up to US to open the door. He leaves it up to our free will if we open the door or decide to keep it closed to Him. If ANYONE hears His voice. Anyone means anyone.

As to Romans 3 and there not being anyone righteous... this refers back to the fact that we are all born sinners. No matter how righteous we may think we are. This is referring to Psalms,,,don't forget Romans 1:19-20...God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time. Those who wish to know Him have always had the opportunity to know Him through nature. Another verse that says it is up to us to go to God.
You cannot take one verse from scripture and make a doctrine around it. There's so much scripture regarding free will:
John 4:13-14 and again we see the words EVERYONE and WHOEVER
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

As to not caring for Unconditional Election because of ego and wanting to take glory away from God...
Nonsense.
Do you really think any person on the earth could take God's glory away? The creator of the universe...

 

[Nancy]

you don't chose anything.

Adam didn't chose to be:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

that wasn't a destination that was where Adam started, the Life you would have received if it wasn't "lost". so that was God's choice for man, and still is, therefore what can be restored to it? isn't God the Judge of that? therefore its really God's choice, He chose you before you gave it a thought.

today the sons of man in man's image are predestined by Adam's choice, not yours. the sons of God are predestined, by God's choice, not by His sons.


isn't one's glory because of one's choices? chose the right trade, the right business, the right spouse, the right house, so on and so forth. God's choosing is no one else's Glory. God's choices and the results thereof is His Glory.


see the freewillers want that glory that they are saved because of their own choice, making themselves self-righteous. they are basically telling you they chose God. but yet you can't be born of God's Spirit without God's permission. as Jesus says by the will of the Spirit, by the Father drawing you to the Son.

the choice to be denied the Life God gave Adam was Adam's choice for you, being the father of all men in Adam's image. the choice to give you the Life God gave who was to be the son of God is God's choice, being the Father of His sons in His image and likeness. whether to make it available to the world, or give it to you personally.

Joshua 24:15
... choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (ESV)
-John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
-Romans 10:13 (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
-John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me.
-John 3:16: For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

• 1 Timothy 2:4: since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
  
  
• 1 John 2:2: and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.
  
  
• John 1:12: But to all who have received him - those who believe in his name - he has given the right to become God's children
  
  
• Just a few verses that, to me are clearly saying: Any, all, whomsoever calls upon the name of The Lord SHALL be saved.

 

[Enoch111]

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

TULIP is a false Gospel, a distortion of Gospel truth.

Total Depravity -- this presents the extreme and unbiblical view that sinners cannot even acknowledge that they are sinners, and cannot even understand that Christ died for their sins according to the Scriptures. That they cannot even understand that God commands them to repent. Hence the false doctrine that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they repent and believe the Gospel, and then saving faith is giving to them as a gift. But Scripture says that only those who obey the Gospel receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) and it is only after they believe that they are regenerated (John 1:12,13).

Unconditional Election -- this presents the false teaching that God elects (or decrees) some for salvation and others for damnation. John 3:17 alone gives the lie to this teaching.

Limited atonement -- this is another lie (and all lies ultimately come from Satan), that Christ died only for the so-called *elect* and not for the sins of the whole world. John 1:29 and 1 John 2:2 give the lie to this teaching.

Irresistible grace -- this is the false teaching that the elect cannot resist the grace of God and will be saved regardless. This is easily refuted by the resistance of unbelieving Jews (from the elect nation of Israel) to the grace of God. Please note: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers (Acts 7:51,52).

Perseverance of the Saints -- this pertains to the eternal security of the believer, but once again, it is NOT the perseverance of the saints but the power and grace of God which keeps us eternally secure in Christ. Please note:Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:5)

In contrast, the New Testament consistently says that (1) all human beings are sinners, therefore (2) Christ died for all humanity, therefore (3) all are commanded to repent, therefore (4) all who repent and believe may be saved.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17).

The world (Gk kosmos) in this context means all the inhabitants of the earth. Check Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Greek Lexicon.

 

[SovereignGrace]

so you think people are predestined for hell because God wanted it that way?

I know this is a rather old post, but I wanted to clarify this. Predestination deals with salvation, not reprobation. All are born dead in Adam, and unless God had chosen some, none would be saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

One of the great debates in modern Christianity are the beliefs of John Calvin.
Such a great man had much to say but we'll just look at Tulip here.

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

I agree with total depravity, we are sinners and need a Savior.
But Calvin goes further, adding that God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

I have a problem understanding this.
Would anyone like to touch on this?

Unconditional election is another that looks okay on the service but the belief that some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
I have a problem with this also.

The fifth part, perseverance of the saints I am in total agreement with.
We cannot lose our salvation. Phil. 1:6 , God is the one that is faithful to perfect us til the day Jesus comes.

But part three, Limited atonement, I disagree with.
Calvinism teaches that Jesus' atonement on the Cross was limited, that is, that He died only for a chosen group, His "elect," not for the sins of the entire world. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross for all sins of all people, and that anyone who wants to can accept Him as Lord and Savior and be born again.

Also, I reject irresistible grace.
If God calls you, you cannot resist.
I believe that man has a free will and he can resist the call of God if he chooses to do so.

There's a lot more to Calvin,more than I'll ever know.
But people take sides with Tulip.
Do you know what you believe concerning Tulip?

Have your views changed? Remained the same? If still have any questions regarding these, please feel free to PM me and I will give you the reformed view. Even if you end up not agreeing with them, you will at least our view.

 

[Nancy]

Of course your answers won't be to my liking!
But we can still talk.
Truth derived from scripture, as you say, should not be changed.
In order to hold to Calvinism, one must change the meaning of words:
All does not mean all
Whosoever does not mean whosoever.
You've given me new meanings for these words which are not only unacceptable to me, but to anyone reading along.

All, as in all the world, means ALL as in everyone.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
all
ɔːl/
predeterminer, determiner, & pronoun

1. 1.
   used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
   "all the people I met"
   sinonimi: each of, each one of the, every one of the, every single one of the;

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
whosoever
WHOSOEVER, pron. who, so, and ever. Any one; any person whatever.

Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. Revelations 22.

Definitions from Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

It's rather unfortunate that we have to start off with definitions of two words that are known by everyone and their meaning has already been established and accepted.

1 Corinthians 2:11-16
Are you saying that non-calvinists do not understand scripture?
I'm going to assume, and I believe rightly so, that both you and I are understanding the scripture in the spirit. Of course, one of us has to be wrong.

Who could it be? I was discussing how WE choose to be saved. This would require free will, which you do not believe we have.
So, I choose to believe in free will.
You choose not to believe in free will.
God gave both of us the spirit to believe. Could He be creating a confusion in us? God is not a God of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33
So, if I'm CHOOSING to believe in free will, doesn't this fact alone prove that I have free will? Or else, God will certainly be a God of confusion if He does not teach us both the same principle.

John 3:16
The words must not be qualified. They mean what they mean.
Here it is in the YLT:
"For God did SO LOVE THE WORLD, that His Son - the only begotten -
He gave, that EVERYONE who is believing in Him may not perish, but may have life age-during."

In any version of the bible you read, you will find the above translation.
Is it possible that every translator made a mistake until Calvin came along and taught us how to read words that have always been understood?

God loved THE WORLD. The world means EVERYONE - not just those that God had chosen. It says that EVERYONE who believes in Jesus will have everlasting life, not those who God had chosen.
And if you continue on to verse 17 and 18:
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God sent His Son into THE WORLD so that THE WORLD might be saved through Him..and who in the world? Those that BELIEVE IN HIM - have already been judged and HE (those) who do not believe in Him have been judged already.

And why? Because God did not choose them? NO.
Because those who do not BELIEVE in Him have already been judged, they were born lost.

From all the above verses, it's shown that we CHOOSE if we want to BELIEVE in Jesus or not. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God chooses us on an individual basis for salvation.

I give you also Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus stands at the door and KNOCKS. It's up to US to open the door. He leaves it up to our free will if we open the door or decide to keep it closed to Him. If ANYONE hears His voice. Anyone means anyone.

As to Romans 3 and there not being anyone righteous... this refers back to the fact that we are all born sinners. No matter how righteous we may think we are. This is referring to Psalms,,,don't forget Romans 1:19-20...God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time. Those who wish to know Him have always had the opportunity to know Him through nature. Another verse that says it is up to us to go to God.
You cannot take one verse from scripture and make a doctrine around it. There's so much scripture regarding free will:
John 4:13-14 and again we see the words EVERYONE and WHOEVER
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

As to not caring for Unconditional Election because of ego and wanting to take glory away from God...
Nonsense.
Do you really think any person on the earth could take God's glory away? The creator of the universe...

"Jesus stands at the door and KNOCKS. It's up to US to open the door. He leaves it up to our free will if we open the door or decide to keep it closed to Him. If ANYONE hears His voice. Anyone means anyone."
Amen...and that's why there is no door handle on Jesus side of the door...
"As to not caring for Unconditional Election because of ego and wanting to take glory away from God...
Nonsense."
'The reason people don’t like “unconditional election” is because it robs them of their glory or ego' Utter nonsense! The REASON people do not like UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION is because it KILLS, STEALS and DESTROYS a persons FAITH.
I find free will to be a beautiful gift yet dangerous as well. Is it not more so considered humbling ones self to surrender to the Only One who calls us to do just that?

 

[GodsGrace]

"Jesus stands at the door and KNOCKS. It's up to US to open the door. He leaves it up to our free will if we open the door or decide to keep it closed to Him. If ANYONE hears His voice. Anyone means anyone."
Amen...and that's why there is no door handle on Jesus side of the door...View attachment 6587
"As to not caring for Unconditional Election because of ego and wanting to take glory away from God...
Nonsense."
'The reason people don’t like “unconditional election” is because it robs them of their glory or ego' Utter nonsense! The REASON people do not like UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION is because it KILLS, STEALS and DESTROYS a persons FAITH.
I find free will to be a beautiful gift yet dangerous as well. Is it not more so considered humbling ones self to surrender to the Only One who calls us to do just that?

I know of two pastors just offhand that left calvinism behind when they realized that god is not the God of the bible...because it does exactly what you've stated above.

 

[Nancy]

I know of two pastors just offhand that left calvinism behind when they realized that god is not the God of the bible...because it does exactly what you've stated above.

That had to take a lot of humility on those pastors part. I worry about one of my brothers who is still attending the one I left in August. He can be easily swayed by the pastors and elders there. He hasn't popped over my house in quite awhile...and he isn't calling/texting me like he used to! Oh God give him discernment!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

That had to take a lot of humility on those pastors part. I worry about one of my brothers who is still attending the one I left in August. He can be easily swayed by the pastors and elders there. He hasn't popped over my house in quite awhile...and he isn't calling/texting me like he used to! Oh God give him discernment!!!

Prayers for your brother.
This shouldn't separate you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Have your views changed? Remained the same? If still have any questions regarding these, please feel free to PM me and I will give you the reformed view. Even if you end up not agreeing with them, you will at least our view.

I have a serious question.
@Preacher4Truth could also answer this.

When God made covenants He promised blessings on those that would follow the covenant rules and cursings on those that would not. This was true for the conditional covenants....For example, the Edenic Covenant.

What I'd like to know is if God spoke of blessings and curses....how is He a just God if it's HE that causes each person to be the way they are....as the potter and the vessel in Romans 9? Persons are only doing what HE predestined them to do or to be.

Edenic Covenant:
Blessing - Eternal Life
Curse - Death (physical and spiritual)

Mosaic Covenant:
Blessings - Lev 26:3-13 Deut 28:1-14
Curses - Lev 26:14-46 Deut 28:15-68


Why have curses at all?

 

[Taken]

~ Rollo ~
But people take sides with Tulip.
Do you know what you believe concerning Tulip?

Not trying to derail your post...but play on words are fun.

Humm, Calivin's TULIP
Or
Jesus' TWOLIPS.

I'll have to go with Jesus' TWOLIPS.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Interesting, I agree until your last statement
God knows what will happen ahead of time, therefore he knows our predestination.

But the question is, "did he choose our destination or did he just know what our destination would be?

God FOREKNEW our choices, Before we were naturall born.. And Before we were Naturally Born God PRE-pared for the Choices we would make.

Correct, men DO NOT KNOW ALL things...and every individual man has freewill to chose what he believes, BASED on how much knowledge he "does" have.

Some men exert the effort to Continously LEARN...millions of others have ZERO desire to LEARN.

Jesus taught...(continuing "education" !!).
The World teaches.
...(to continue "education")

Tiny Problem....
What the WORLD teaches, is almost always in DIRECT Conflict with what Scripture Teaches.

Just saying;
There are THREE schools of Education;
1) Gods Word
2) The Worlds word
3) other gods word

Individuals have FREEWILL to SELECT who to follow to BE continuously Hearing, learning MORE KNOWLEDGE....to thus Exercise MORE Freewill choices...

Or how to fit a bolt in a hole for 8 hours, and how to hook a lure on a line and bass fish...
And he be perfectly content with his Lifetime Limited Knowledge.

Yes, GOD KNOWS WHAT we will Free Choose, and our Destination, PRYOR, To our natural Birth.

He KNOWS WHO will FLAT OUT reject Him.

He KNOWS WHO will TINKER...
be raised in Scriptural teaching,
Attend a Church for political, business, appearence purposes, be entertained, etc.

He KNOWS Who will genuinely be Hungry and Thirsty for His Knowledge and Understanding.

He KNOWS WHOM HE WILL Call, and WHOM Will Answer and WHOM Will not....and WHAT God has Prepared for Each.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Enoch111]

Why have curses at all?

This is another manifestation of the Law of Cause and Effect, or the Law of Sowing and Reaping.

Sin and disobedience to God's commandments have consequences, so the first curse was already stated in the Garden of Eden:

POSITIVE COMMANDMENT
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat...

NEGATIVE COMMANDMENT
...But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:...

CONSEQUENCE OF DISOBEDIENCE (A CURSE)
...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There are two deaths: (1) physical and (2) eternal. The second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. And that is why we have the Gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is another manifestation of the Law of Cause and Effect, or the Law of Sowing and Reaping.

Sin and disobedience to God's commandments have consequences, so the first curse was already stated in the Garden of Eden:

POSITIVE COMMANDMENT
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat...

NEGATIVE COMMANDMENT
...But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:...

CONSEQUENCE OF DISOBEDIENCE (A CURSE)
...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There are two deaths: (1) physical and (2) eternal. The second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. And that is why we have the Gospel.

Thanks Enoch. But I know the above....

I really would like an answer from any calvinist on this forum or thread.

Do you understand that it makes no sense for God to give curses upon non-obedience IF IT'S HIM that makes us the way we are? IOW, to disobey...

I think you understand my question to @SovereignGrace or @Preacher4Truth

Predestination makes no biblical sense at all.

PS As to the two deaths,,,,I think you meant Physical and Spiritual.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

"Jesus stands at the door and KNOCKS. It's up to US to open the door. He leaves it up to our free will if we open the door or decide to keep it closed to Him. If ANYONE hears His voice. Anyone means anyone."
Amen...and that's why there is no door handle on Jesus side of the door...View attachment 6587
"As to not caring for Unconditional Election because of ego and wanting to take glory away from God...
Nonsense."
'The reason people don’t like “unconditional election” is because it robs them of their glory or ego' Utter nonsense! The REASON people do not like UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION is because it KILLS, STEALS and DESTROYS a persons FAITH.
I find free will to be a beautiful gift yet dangerous as well. Is it not more so considered humbling ones self to surrender to the Only One who calls us to do just that?

Utter nonsense, out of context Scripture and straw man arguments. It's hilarious you call faith a gift as well. Lolzzzz...

Knowing God has elected is a comfort because it rests in him. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 is a beautiful passage proving it is God who chose and he gets all the glory. In your unbiblical system that doesn't happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

Utter nonsense, out of context Scripture and straw man arguments. It's hilarious you call faith a gift as well. Lolzzzz...

Knowing God has elected is a comfort because it rests in him. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 is a beautiful passage proving it is God who chose and he gets all the glory. In your unbiblical system that doesn't happen.

1. If God chooses,,,,then you will never be certain He has chosen you.

2. Most theologians agree that the gift is a combination of faith and salvation...
the whole package.

It could also be only faith
or only salvation.

There is debate about this so I don't think WE should be so certain of what it means.