Tulip

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Rollo Tamasi

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to live the Life God gave him, Adam didn't have a freewill. it was God's choice for Adam or die. again you don't choose the life you received when you come in to the world that was chosen for you, a life of flesh in the flesh that actually God chose for Adam after the incident with the tree. A&E were dead meat and they knew it. they didn't say well we can still live in the flesh, but the Lord God let them continue in the flesh without the original Life chosen for them. animals already had dust to dust and ashes to ashes. remember animals were there already. I don't think they chose that ether.

the Life of "was to be son of God" wasn't chosen by Adam, it was chosen by God for Adam, otherwise its death. A&E still died that day of the Life God gave them. read the bible, and what it actually says. there's no walking away from the instruction of life and live.


A&E didn't chose to die, they trusted something other than the Word of God, which according to Jesus man is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. every word, that is the Life that was to be lived by A&E that was "lost".

A&E lived in a situation were they had to do what is told them by God, or they die. the Kingdom of God isn't a democracy, and nether was the Garden of Eden. there's no freewill in that, when Satan displeased God, Jesus says he fell out of heaven like a bolt of lightening. in the Presence of God its His Way or death. again no freedom as understood by the democratic concept there. there is no voting in the Kingdom of God.
How can they have an original life chosen from them and say God never let them have it to begin with.
You say they were chosen to die, then you say they were not allowed to live the original life that was chosen for them.
You are not getting your point across very well.
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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Rollo: fantastic ??? full marks

These two comments by you apply...
"...or did he just know what our destination would be?
But what if he interfered to make our destination happen?.."

Let me explain a little more...

I believe the crux of the problem is when we do not believe or take to heart that God said he is all-knowing. It means a lot.

It means that time and space is irrelevant to him and he can inject or cause us (‘free -will’), to make us think we are modifying our lives. We think we made the changes although all along it was God’s doing beforehand.

Can we image what it would be like to know the future of peoples’ action? We cannot.

Let’s imagine God already has seen ALL of Rollo’s life on earth from BEFORE his conception to his place in the heavens. I believe he has already……

God wants Rollo to become a believer in Christ, like all people he desires this. Rollo has shown to God since his birth that he desires to know God, even in the subtlest ways. Rollo is not yet a believer. God saw a trend(s) of kindness, love, and other characteristics in his life that God favors. God see hope in this human called Rollo. God sees Rollo as a viable and suitable candidate that will ‘choose’ him. He sees Rollo’s near death in the future. God intervened before Rollo was conceived to make this the point in time where Rollo would come to God. Now this is the simplistic way to describe how and why God intervenes for his pleasure as he want Rollo to come to him. It is God’s prerogative when and how he will make this happen though.

Now today, Rollo reflects on how he came to Christ and believes he did it all, using his own free will. Did he really have free-will, I think not.

Now I also believe that if Rollo never portrayed any characteristics/acts that God desires and never saw it ever in his entire life, Rollo would never be part of the elect.

I have to say my story went down in a dire and yet different way. I lived unwittingly and ignorantly with the two biggest drug dealers in town. I didn’t realize it. My life could have snuffed out at any time. I was also entertaining death when an ex-husband was about to literally duel me over his ex-wife with a real gun duel. It was to the death. Looking back, God pulled me out of it, not at that time, he did it before I was conceived. He already saw my life completed. We tend to treat God as intervening on human limited terms. When something bad occurs and we ‘survive’ we say that God intervened at the time and never before we were born. Many preachers believe that God intervenes on a human timeline and they spew this at to loved ones, in ‘church’ sermons,,etc. They are completely wrong. We are limiting God as he is all-knowing.

Bless you,

APAK
Sounds good.
But as I said in my thread, I don't know where you to find this in Scripture.
Without Scripture we are reasoning our answers to our own understanding.
It becomes our opinion.
To understand how God works in our lives is not so easy to explain or understand.
I tend to think I have free will, some kind of free will.
You demote us to robots with what you say.
Our understanding of free will exists.
It's in the Bible.
Why would God put it there unless it had something to do with us.
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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This has nothing to do with the TULIP, but more to do with John Calvin, the preacher. Calvin was not a Calvinist.

He didn't preach TULIP. His flowers did after he died. Today, Calvinism is even far away from what his followers preached.

I have not read all his works, but I have read the pertinent works. If you fault me for that, well... You clearly don't know the man! He could write 30 pages about the first 10 verses of genesis chapter 1! And he covered the whole Bible in his writings!

He wrote some 50 books. I haven't counted... In one book he devoted 3 chapters to predestination.... Never once claiming TULIP. he sid talj spiratically about the topic in other chapters and works. He often co tradicted himself.

My point is he talked about every aspect in the Bible, yet a mere 3 chapters of one book defines him...

If you want to talk "Calvinism", go ahead... But realize that he didn't invent it.

But heck.... Truth ain't that important, is it?
Thanks for the info.
I did not know these things.
I started the thread with the hope of learning more of a very controversial subject.
I always wondered how a famous church leader in history could be put down so much.
 

APAK

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Sounds good.
But as I said in my thread, I don't know where you to find this in Scripture.
Without Scripture we are reasoning our answers to our own understanding.
It becomes our opinion.
To understand how God works in our lives is not so easy to explain or understand.
I tend to think I have free will, some kind of free will.
You demote us to robots with what you say.
Our understanding of free will exists.
It's in the Bible.
Why would God put it there unless it had something to do with us.

Rollo:

Here are some verses that says man does not have a so-called free-will in this earthly time-space continuum. God truly has free-will and does not operate under our dimension of sequential time and physical space.

(Pro 16:1) People might plan what they want to say, but it is the LORD who gives them the right words.
(Pro 16:4) The LORD has a plan for everything. In his plan, the wicked will be destroyed.
(Pro 16:9) People can plan what they want to do, but it is the LORD who guides their steps.
(Eph 1:3) Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. In Christ, God has given us every spiritual blessing in heaven.
(Eph 1:4) In Christ, he chose us before the world was made. He chose us in love to be his holy people—people who could stand before him without any fault.
(Eph 1:5) And before the world was made, God decided to make us his own children through Jesus Christ. This was what God wanted, and it pleased him to do it.
(Eph 2:9) You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.
(Eph 2:10) God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us new people so that we would spend our lives doing the good things he had already planned for us to do. (ALL ERV)

The Bible does not teach ‘free-will’ at all. There is no scripture that explicitly speaks to it. The teaching of ‘free will’ is a pagan or secular thought stemming back to the Greeks, especially Plato and Socrates.

There is plenty of scripture saying we choose and plan etc., although under the concept of an all-knowing God, he either has altered our destination before hand or allowed it to run its course – depending on his plan. Again, when we think in the now, we say we have free-will, although if we think that time is not a factor, our will is viewed as limited especially when we commit ourselves to Christ. Our faith actually means we give up our will completely, in theory, to the will of God. God’s will it continues to provide us with a course worthy of a holy servant. Our human nature always uses our so-called ‘free-will.’ This is a tough nut to crack if we don’t think as God can, and not as we can.

We have free-will in as much as God did not to re-route our destiny. He could have acted only once or many thousands of times before we were born. And we won’t even know he acted and re-routed our lives anyway. We are completely obvious to his work. And we still think we have a ‘free-will.’ We have the illusion we choose everything. Many believe that Adam and Eve chose freely to disobey God, without God’s intervention. They were right, God never planned to intervene, and they acted independently, although God could have swayed the outcome beforehand. They were destined to perform the way they did. God controlled every step of their lives. Their outcome was part of his plan.

We underestimate who God is and limit him as a mere man at times, who think of him thinking like us.

(Isa 55:8) The LORD says, "My thoughts are not like yours. Your ways are not like mine.
(Isa 55:9) Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:10) "Rain and snow fall from the sky and don't return until they have watered the ground. Then the ground causes the plants to sprout and grow, and they produce seeds for the farmer and food for people to eat.
(Isa 55:11) In the same way, my words leave my mouth, and they don't come back without results. My words make the things happen that I want to happen. They succeed in doing what I send them to do. (ALL ERV)

Bless you,

APAK
 

DPMartin

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How can they have an original life chosen from them and say God never let them have it to begin with.
You say they were chosen to die, then you say they were not allowed to live the original life that was chosen for them.
You are not getting your point across very well.

no you say I say that: " God's choice for Adam or die"

where did I say they were chosen to die?

I realize I can really hack with type-o but I don't see where I said any of those things

A&E didn't chose the Life God gave them in God's image. and to say they chose death is to say they were suicidal. there's no freewill in do what God say or die. how people get freewill in that is amazing, and they believe it.

if some one has you and they say do what they say or die, where's the freewill in that? Adam had the Life of to be son of God, and it was "lost" hence died from that Life. but God let them live dust to dust ashes to ashes. though they weren't promised that before they ate of the tree. they were promised death and you contend they chose death. so now the sons of man in man's image are dead souls in the flesh, which if you notice A&E didn't turn down.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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no you say I say that: " God's choice for Adam or die"

where did I say they were chosen to die?

I realize I can really hack with type-o but I don't see where I said any of those things

A&E didn't chose the Life God gave them in God's image. and to say they chose death is to say they were suicidal. there's no freewill in do what God say or die. how people get freewill in that is amazing, and they believe it.

if some one has you and they say do what they say or die, where's the freewill in that? Adam had the Life of to be son of God, and it was "lost" hence died from that Life. but God let them live dust to dust ashes to ashes. though they weren't promised that before they ate of the tree. they were promised death and you contend they chose death. so now the sons of man in man's image are dead souls in the flesh, which if you notice A&E didn't turn down.
Okay, I reread your original post and understand better.
Thank you
 

Jun2u

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Truth is the truth. Does it matter who wrote it as long as what he conveyed harmonizes with Scripture?

T – Total Depravity

Man is desperately wicked who can know it? Jer 17:9; Matt 15:19; Mk 7:21

U – Unconditional Election

There are those in their perverseness who will tell God, “You did not choose me so now I’m going to hell.” No. We go to hell because we are sinners. The wages of sin (singular) is death, and all have sinned without exception. Read Ro 9:13-25 in its entirety.

L – Limited Atonement

You shall call His name Jesus for He shall save His people (the “elect”) from their sins Matt 1:21. Imagine if God saved everyone, there will no one then be in hell! Why? Because all sins would have been forgiven, therefore, there will not one sin that man can commit that will put him in hell or under God’s judgment. see, Jn 15:16; Eph 1:4; 2Thess 2:13.

I - Irresistible Grace

After man has rebelled against God in the Garden, not only did he lose all relations with God and sold to sin, he became subject to spiritual and physical death as well. Man has lost all abilities that is “good” in him and can only do evil. Its true man did have the ability to choose but how can a man that is spiritually a dead corpse have a free will? Impossible, he has no life in him

To God Be The Glory
 
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OzSpen

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One of the great debates in modern Christianity are the beliefs of John Calvin.
Such a great man had much to say but we'll just look at Tulip here.

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

I agree with total depravity, we are sinners and need a Savior.
But Calvin goes further, adding that God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

I have a problem understanding this.
Would anyone like to touch on this?

Unconditional election is another that looks okay on the service but the belief that some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
I have a problem with this also.

The fifth part, perseverance of the saints I am in total agreement with.
We cannot lose our salvation. Phil. 1:6 , God is the one that is faithful to perfect us til the day Jesus comes.

But part three, Limited atonement, I disagree with.
Calvinism teaches that Jesus' atonement on the Cross was limited, that is, that He died only for a chosen group, His "elect," not for the sins of the entire world. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross for all sins of all people, and that anyone who wants to can accept Him as Lord and Savior and be born again.

Also, I reject irresistible grace.
If God calls you, you cannot resist.
I believe that man has a free will and he can resist the call of God if he chooses to do so.

There's a lot more to Calvin,more than I'll ever know.
But people take sides with Tulip.
Do you know what you believe concerning Tulip?

Rollo,

I would appreciate if you would define the terms you posted for TULIP as understood by Calvinists. I'll deal with one point, T = Total Depravity.

For the Calvinist, total depravity does not mean 'we are sinners and need a savior'. It means:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23) [The Five Points of Calvinism, Calvinist Corner].​

Until 20 months ago, I used to attend a Presbyterian Church where the pastor was an in-your-face TULIP Calvinist. He preached that Jacob Arminius did not believe in Total Depravity. After the service I asked where he got that information as it was a lie? He said he heard it in a Reformed Calvinistic College he attended to train for the ministry. The pastor himself had not read this information in The Works of James Arminius. He got it from his Calvinistic lecturers in College. I have read Arminius and I sent this to him:

What did Jacobus Arminius believe about Total Depravity? In one of his disputations, he wrote:

V. In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with “righteousness and true holiness,” and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen. i. 26, 27,) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (ii, 17,) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Ephes. iv. 24, Col. iii. 10.)

VI. But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life,) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is Under The Dominion of Sin. For “to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,” (Rom. vi. 16,) and “of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,” and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet. ii. 19.)

VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: “Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.” That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man (Arminius 1977:525-526).​

So both Calvin and Arminius taught Total Depravity. Do they present a biblical case for that theology?

I'm a 'leaky' Reformed Arminian (I find most of Arminius's theology compatible with biblical theology) but I don't accept infant baptism, which he did as a Dutch Reformed Minister and teacher in the University of Leiden. He died at age 49.

Oz


 
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Rollo Tamasi

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Rollo,

I would appreciate if you would define the terms you posted for TULIP as understood by Calvinists. I'll deal with one point, T = Total Depravity.

For the Calvinist, total depravity does not mean 'we are sinners and need a savior'. It means:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23) [The Five Points of Calvinism, Calvinist Corner].​

Until 20 months ago, I used to attend a Presbyterian Church where the pastor was an in-your-face TULIP Calvinist. He preached that Jacob Arminius did not believe in Total Depravity. After the service I asked where he got that information as it was a lie? He said he heard it in a Reformed Calvinistic College he attended to train for the ministry. The pastor himself had not read this information in The Works of James Arminius. He got it from his Calvinistic lecturers in College. I have read Arminius and I sent this to him:

What did Jacobus Arminius believe about Total Depravity? In one of his disputations, he wrote:

V. In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with “righteousness and true holiness,” and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen. i. 26, 27,) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (ii, 17,) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Ephes. iv. 24, Col. iii. 10.)

VI. But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life,) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is Under The Dominion of Sin. For “to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,” (Rom. vi. 16,) and “of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,” and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet. ii. 19.)

VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: “Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.” That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man (Arminius 1977:525-526).​

So both Calvin and Arminius taught Total Depravity. Do they present a biblical case for that theology?

I'm a 'leaky' Reformed Arminian (I find most of Arminius's theology compatible with biblical theology) but I don't accept infant baptism, which he did as a Dutch Reformed Minister and teacher in the University of Leiden. He died at age 49.

Oz


Thanks for the info Oz.
 

GodsGrace

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to live the Life God gave him, Adam didn't have a freewill. it was God's choice for Adam or die. again you don't choose the life you received when you come in to the world that was chosen for you, a life of flesh in the flesh that actually God chose for Adam after the incident with the tree. A&E were dead meat and they knew it. they didn't say well we can still live in the flesh, but the Lord God let them continue in the flesh without the original Life chosen for them. animals already had dust to dust and ashes to ashes. remember animals were there already. I don't think they chose that ether.

the Life of "was to be son of God" wasn't chosen by Adam, it was chosen by God for Adam, otherwise its death. A&E still died that day of the Life God gave them. read the bible, and what it actually says. there's no walking away from the instruction of life and live.


A&E didn't chose to die, they trusted something other than the Word of God, which according to Jesus man is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. every word, that is the Life that was to be lived by A&E that was "lost".

A&E lived in a situation were they had to do what is told them by God, or they die. the Kingdom of God isn't a democracy, and nether was the Garden of Eden. there's no freewill in that, when Satan displeased God, Jesus says he fell out of heaven like a bolt of lightening. in the Presence of God its His Way or death. again no freedom as understood by the democratic concept there. there is no voting in the Kingdom of God.
I'm sorry I don't follow along with your reasoning.
You said above that A and E lived in a situation where they had to do what God told them or they die.

So in your opinion, God made A and E eat of the forbidden fruit so they could die?

What about the Garden of Gethsemane?
Are we made in the image of God? Was Jesus made in the image of a human being?
He said in the Garden, "not my will but your will be done".
Luke 22:42
This shows that Jesus had His own will, just as we do.
How would you explain that?
 

GodsGrace

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This is the discussion born and later refined from both sides of the English Channel. Calvin of England and Arminius of the Netherlands. The one major idea and concept that eventually spins-off this discussion is that of ‘free-will' and foreknowledge. Why don’t we discuss these first and then re-evaluate the 5 Points of Calvin against it? It is another way to calve up and analyze the subject.

Calvin was for limited or no ‘free’ will whilst Arminius was for total ‘free’ will and then modified Calvin’s Points accordingly.

I’m of the camp of God’s pre-knowledge of man’s actions or 'free-will' (Arminius) and a limited so-called 'free will,' closer to Calvin. So, I’m a believer in a hybrid theory of TULIP.

And why do I believe the way I do..briefly…

I believe God is sovereign in all things and his plans are King. I also believe that God allows man to choose to be wooed by God’s desire to come to him and be in his love. I also believe that God is all knowing and already knows who will come to him today, and tomorrow. I also believe we have a limited ‘free-will,’ in the sense we cannot or are not capable on knowing all things, do not have the ability to do all things, and are driven by both physical and invisible forces we do not understand. Yes, we can choose, from an already much controlled view. It that ‘free-will?’ I think not, from God’s perspective.

APAK
If you believe free will means to be able to do whatever we want to do, you have a misconception of what free will means. Philosophically it could mean this. Biblically it only has one meaning:
We have the free will to choose between right and wrong. It is a morally inclined free will.

We're affected from the exterior only in the sense that we know right from wrong. Otherwise, it's an interior decision we make based on what we know about this moral dilemma. Some understand it and some don't. Some choose to follow God and some choose to follow satan.
 

GodsGrace

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Interesting posts.

I don't fully "like" either camps 100%.
I hate "boxes" anyway.

I believe also in a limited free will...free to chose, free to make mistakes..free inside of God's greater Sovereignty.

I believe God calls all men to Himself. Some hear and answer..some can't hear. Some hear but do not wish to respond or give up their own live.

I believe that those who hear and run after God and follow, are the true "believing believers". Some hear but don't wish to follow too closely, so walk at a distance behind.

I also believe that we will be as close to God in the final kingdom as we have been while walking down here. Our choice, and our gain or loss.

So no, I don't fit in neatly in neither box. :)
You're not a calvinist.
I don't think anyone believes totally with either camp, but if we had to choose one...?
Many who don't agree with Calvinism, do agree with Preservation of the Saints, or Eternal Security, or OSAS. Many seem to like this comforting idea, even though it's not found in the bible unless we really twist scripture.
 

GodsGrace

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Interesting, I agree until your last statement
God knows what will happen ahead of time, therefore he knows our predestination.
But the question is, "did he choose our destination or did he just know what our destination would be?
But what if he interferred to make our destination happen?
Such as saving my life so 3 years later I would be alive to accept him as my Lord and Savior.
Did his saving me from death bring about my salvation or was that all part of the plan because he knew if I lived long enough, I would choose to be with him?
I don't know where in Scripture to find these answers.
Because God knows the future, it does not mean He has impacted the future.

The problem you bring up is that, yes, God does intervene at times. This is called a miracle. We cannot really know when this happens unless God makes it clear to us.

I also agree with @"ByGrace" s comment regarding the fact that we have free will but it is inside the will of God. Some how or other, even if we make a wrong choice, God will bring about what HE desires to happen. We are still free to make our own decision though.

This is a problem in Christianity...reconciling our free will with God's sovereignty. The important part to remember is that we DO have free will.

We choose our actions, and we choose if we want to be saved or lost.
Imagine a God that chooses those who will go to hell ! How is He a loving God?
1 John 4:8b.
 
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GodsGrace

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This has nothing to do with the TULIP, but more to do with John Calvin, the preacher. Calvin was not a Calvinist.

He didn't preach TULIP. His flowers did after he died. Today, Calvinism is even far away from what his followers preached.

I have not read all his works, but I have read the pertinent works. If you fault me for that, well... You clearly don't know the man! He could write 30 pages about the first 10 verses of genesis chapter 1! And he covered the whole Bible in his writings!

He wrote some 50 books. I haven't counted... In one book he devoted 3 chapters to predestination.... Never once claiming TULIP. he sid talj spiratically about the topic in other chapters and works. He often co tradicted himself.

My point is he talked about every aspect in the Bible, yet a mere 3 chapters of one book defines him...

If you want to talk "Calvinism", go ahead... But realize that he didn't invent it.

But heck.... Truth ain't that important, is it?
When I bring up the Early Church Father's, I'm often told that THEY were not inspired and so they aren't important or should not be quoted.

Was John Calvin inspired?
He started a movement, or concept, that didn't even exist for 1,500 years after the death of Christ. So should we listen to HIM??
I think not.
 

GodsGrace

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Thanks for the info.
I did not know these things.
I started the thread with the hope of learning more of a very controversial subject.
I always wondered how a famous church leader in history could be put down so much.
He's put down so much because everything he taught is not biblical:

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

T: If man is totally depraved, why is he capable of doing good?
U: Could you imagine that God chose some to go to hell? Why even create man then?
L: Jesus died only for a select few. The bible teaches that God wants all men to be saved. Then, whether or not they choose to is up to them.
I: If we could not say no to God, it means we're little robots. Love must be freely given. We have free will. This is because we're made in God's image and HIS will is free.
P: We must believe and trust in Jesus at the time of our death.
 
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GodsGrace

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Rollo,

I would appreciate if you would define the terms you posted for TULIP as understood by Calvinists. I'll deal with one point, T = Total Depravity.

For the Calvinist, total depravity does not mean 'we are sinners and need a savior'. It means:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23) [The Five Points of Calvinism, Calvinist Corner].​

Until 20 months ago, I used to attend a Presbyterian Church where the pastor was an in-your-face TULIP Calvinist. He preached that Jacob Arminius did not believe in Total Depravity. After the service I asked where he got that information as it was a lie? He said he heard it in a Reformed Calvinistic College he attended to train for the ministry. The pastor himself had not read this information in The Works of James Arminius. He got it from his Calvinistic lecturers in College. I have read Arminius and I sent this to him:

What did Jacobus Arminius believe about Total Depravity? In one of his disputations, he wrote:

V. In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with “righteousness and true holiness,” and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen. i. 26, 27,) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (ii, 17,) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Ephes. iv. 24, Col. iii. 10.)

VI. But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life,) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is Under The Dominion of Sin. For “to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,” (Rom. vi. 16,) and “of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,” and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet. ii. 19.)

VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: “Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.” That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man (Arminius 1977:525-526).​

So both Calvin and Arminius taught Total Depravity. Do they present a biblical case for that theology?

I'm a 'leaky' Reformed Arminian (I find most of Arminius's theology compatible with biblical theology) but I don't accept infant baptism, which he did as a Dutch Reformed Minister and teacher in the University of Leiden. He died at age 49.

Oz


If you want to believe that man is totally depraved, then you must also believe that God destines some to hell -- those He did not choose for heaven.

Man is maimed. After A and E were banished from the Garden, God was still with them.
Genesis 4:1
and I'd also quote Genesis 4:15

Were they still in some type of rapport with God?
Or did God CHOOSE them to be saved in the end?
I say they were still in rapport with God.
He does not choose anyone for hell.
1 Timothy 2:4
Romans 2:11
2 Peter 3:9
 

Helen

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Because God knows the future, it does not mean He has impacted the future.

The problem you bring up is that, yes, God does intervene at times. This is called a miracle. We cannot really know when this happens unless God makes it clear to us.

I also agree with @"ByGrace" s comment regarding the fact that we have free will but it is inside the will of God. Some how or other, even if we make a wrong choice, God will bring about what HE desires to happen. We are still free to make our own decision though.

This is a problem in Christianity...reconciling our free will with God's sovereignty. The important part to remember is that we DO have free will.

We choose our actions, and we choose if we want to be saved or lost.
Imagine a God that chooses those who will go to hell ! How is He a loving God?
1 John 4:8b.

I see free will something like-
Mother has plans for the day...the kids can play in the garden , climb trees, argue, even fight, get muddy, have fun....but that wont ruins mothers plans for the day of the whole family.

No allegory is perfect...but that is a bit like I see God, us, and His Whole overall Plan. :)
We are free....But God controls the final outcome.

...H
 

Rollo Tamasi

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I'm just a simple man. I like to learn but overall I'm not concerned about all the debating.
I just follow Jesus and leave the rest to him.
And I thank God for Breadman, he's fun and a chance to witness to someone
 
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APAK

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If you believe free will means to be able to do whatever we want to do, you have a misconception of what free will means. Philosophically it could mean this. Biblically it only has one meaning:
We have the free will to choose between right and wrong. It is a morally inclined free will.

We're affected from the exterior only in the sense that we know right from wrong. Otherwise, it's an interior decision we make based on what we know about this moral dilemma. Some understand it and some don't. Some choose to follow God and some choose to follow satan.

GodsGrace: I never suggested that any person's will was free to do anything it wants. We are either constrained as slaves to sin or doing the will of God. Does that sound like a 'free'-will. Look at post #24. What I was pointing out in this OP is that a Dutchman was for a very liberal free-will. I did not say I believed that way. Anyway, I started another thread called 'Can you choose God?" It should clear up my view of 'free' will
and with a few more posts downstream in it . I go
for a limited 'free'-will..
And your statement of our will capable of choosing between right and wrong it not technically correct either. Read the new OP I spoke of...

APAK