Tulip

[Rollo Tamasi]

One of the great debates in modern Christianity are the beliefs of John Calvin.
Such a great man had much to say but we'll just look at Tulip here.

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

I agree with total depravity, we are sinners and need a Savior.
But Calvin goes further, adding that God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

I have a problem understanding this.
Would anyone like to touch on this?

Unconditional election is another that looks okay on the service but the belief that some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
I have a problem with this also.

The fifth part, perseverance of the saints I am in total agreement with.
We cannot lose our salvation. Phil. 1:6 , God is the one that is faithful to perfect us til the day Jesus comes.

But part three, Limited atonement, I disagree with.
Calvinism teaches that Jesus' atonement on the Cross was limited, that is, that He died only for a chosen group, His "elect," not for the sins of the entire world. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross for all sins of all people, and that anyone who wants to can accept Him as Lord and Savior and be born again.

Also, I reject irresistible grace.
If God calls you, you cannot resist.
I believe that man has a free will and he can resist the call of God if he chooses to do so.

There's a lot more to Calvin,more than I'll ever know.
But people take sides with Tulip.
Do you know what you believe concerning Tulip?

 

[DPMartin]

One of the great debates in modern Christianity are the beliefs of John Calvin.
Such a great man had much to say but we'll just look at Tulip here.

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

I agree with total depravity, we are sinners and need a Savior.
But Calvin goes further, adding that God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

I have a problem understanding this.
Would anyone like to touch on this?

Unconditional election is another that looks okay on the service but the belief that some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
I have a problem with this also.

The fifth part, perseverance of the saints I am in total agreement with.
We cannot lose our salvation. Phil. 1:6 , God is the one that is faithful to perfect us til the day Jesus comes.

But part three, Limited atonement, I disagree with.
Calvinism teaches that Jesus' atonement on the Cross was limited, that is, that He died only for a chosen group, His "elect," not for the sins of the entire world. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross for all sins of all people, and that anyone who wants to can accept Him as Lord and Savior and be born again.

Also, I reject irresistible grace.
If God calls you, you cannot resist.
I believe that man has a free will and he can resist the call of God if he chooses to do so.

There's a lot more to Calvin,more than I'll ever know.
But people take sides with Tulip.
Do you know what you believe concerning Tulip?

thing is about Calvinism it seems its based on one or two things that are true then the rest goes out there in space somewhere.

God makes the choice no doubt about it, in the bible over and over again the Lord points out His choices and that He chooses, and finds and shows that man's choices are unacceptable and unsatisfactory. and that God chooses them, men don't chose God. can't chose what you don't know, unless its made known to you, therefore its God's choice to reveal Himself to whom He pleases, that they may know Him. but when you read about Jesus who does He look for, and respond to favorably, or even honor? faith, the faithful, those who would believe and trust in Him.

but things like Jesus died for the sins of the few is a skewed view, Jesus died for the sins of the world, scripture doesn't say otherwise. but its the few that receive the reward. its the Father that draws souls to the Son so, it can be seen how that view is seen to be true, but the world is forgiven through Christ. but without Christ as Jesus says, one dies in their sin.

its a blanket policy all are born into the state of sin receiving the life of Adam, its also a blanket policy that all is forgiven receiving the Life of Christ. but not all souls receive the life of Christ, hence receiving the Life of Christ isn't a blanket policy, though the Cross is sufficient for all souls (the whole world) to receive the Life of Christ.

as far as how the calling works the parable explaining the good ground and the hard ground tells you how it works. the preacher preaches to a crowd some respond some don't, those that respond according to God's will, are the ones God is looking for, His choice. hence many called few chosen.


but don't hold me to any specifics about Calvinism, its been quite some time since I've read any thing of it.

 

[APAK]

This is the discussion born and later refined from both sides of the English Channel. Calvin of England and Arminius of the Netherlands. The one major idea and concept that eventually spins-off this discussion is that of ‘free-will' and foreknowledge. Why don’t we discuss these first and then re-evaluate the 5 Points of Calvin against it? It is another way to calve up and analyze the subject.

Calvin was for limited or no ‘free’ will whilst Arminius was for total ‘free’ will and then modified Calvin’s Points accordingly.

I’m of the camp of God’s pre-knowledge of man’s actions or 'free-will' (Arminius) and a limited so-called 'free will,' closer to Calvin. So, I’m a believer in a hybrid theory of TULIP.

And why do I believe the way I do..briefly…

I believe God is sovereign in all things and his plans are King. I also believe that God allows man to choose to be wooed by God’s desire to come to him and be in his love. I also believe that God is all knowing and already knows who will come to him today, and tomorrow. I also believe we have a limited ‘free-will,’ in the sense we cannot or are not capable on knowing all things, do not have the ability to do all things, and are driven by both physical and invisible forces we do not understand. Yes, we can choose, from an already much controlled view. It that ‘free-will?’ I think not, from God’s perspective.

APAK

 

[Helen]

Interesting posts.

I don't fully "like" either camps 100%.
I hate "boxes" anyway.

I believe also in a limited free will...free to chose, free to make mistakes..free inside of God's greater Sovereignty.

I believe God calls all men to Himself. Some hear and answer..some can't hear. Some hear but do not wish to respond or give up their own live.

I believe that those who hear and run after God and follow, are the true "believing believers". Some hear but don't wish to follow too closely, so walk at a distance behind.

I also believe that we will be as close to God in the final kingdom as we have been while walking down here. Our choice, and our gain or loss.

So no, I don't fit in neatly in neither box.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is the discussion born and later refined from both sides of the English Channel. Calvin of England and Arminius of the Netherlands. The one major idea and concept that eventually spins-off this discussion is that of ‘free-will' and foreknowledge. Why don’t we discuss these first and then re-evaluate the 5 Points of Calvin against it? It is another way to calve up and analyze the subject.

Calvin was for limited or no ‘free’ will whilst Arminius was for total ‘free’ will and then modified Calvin’s Points accordingly.

I’m of the camp of God’s pre-knowledge of man’s actions or 'free-will' (Arminius) and a limited so-called 'free will,' closer to Calvin. So, I’m a believer in a hybrid theory of TULIP.

And why do I believe the way I do..briefly…

I believe God is sovereign in all things and his plans are King. I also believe that God allows man to choose to be wooed by God’s desire to come to him and be in his love. I also believe that God is all knowing and already knows who will come to him today, and tomorrow. I also believe we have a limited ‘free-will,’ in the sense we cannot or are not capable on knowing all things, do not have the ability to do all things, and are driven by both physical and invisible forces we do not understand. Yes, we can choose, from an already much controlled view. It that ‘free-will?’ I think not, from God’s perspective.

APAK

Interesting, I agree until your last statement
God knows what will happen ahead of time, therefore he knows our predestination.
But the question is, "did he choose our destination or did he just know what our destination would be?
But what if he interferred to make our destination happen?
Such as saving my life so 3 years later I would be alive to accept him as my Lord and Savior.
Did his saving me from death bring about my salvation or was that all part of the plan because he knew if I lived long enough, I would choose to be with him?
I don't know where in Scripture to find these answers.

 

[DPMartin]

Interesting, I agree until your last statement
God knows what will happen ahead of time, therefore he knows our predestination.
But the question is, "did he choose our destination or did he just know what our destination would be?
But what if he interferred to make our destination happen?
Such as saving my life so 3 years later I would be alive to accept him as my Lord and Savior.
Did his saving me from death bring about my salvation or was that all part of the plan because he knew if I lived long enough, I would choose to be with him?
I don't know where in Scripture to find these answers.

you don't chose anything.

Adam didn't chose to be:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

that wasn't a destination that was where Adam started, the Life you would have received if it wasn't "lost". so that was God's choice for man, and still is, therefore what can be restored to it? isn't God the Judge of that? therefore its really God's choice, He chose you before you gave it a thought.

today the sons of man in man's image are predestined by Adam's choice, not yours. the sons of God are predestined, by God's choice, not by His sons.


isn't one's glory because of one's choices? chose the right trade, the right business, the right spouse, the right house, so on and so forth. God's choosing is no one else's Glory. God's choices and the results thereof is His Glory.


see the freewillers want that glory that they are saved because of their own choice, making themselves self-righteous. they are basically telling you they chose God. but yet you can't be born of God's Spirit without God's permission. as Jesus says by the will of the Spirit, by the Father drawing you to the Son.

the choice to be denied the Life God gave Adam was Adam's choice for you, being the father of all men in Adam's image. the choice to give you the Life God gave who was to be the son of God is God's choice, being the Father of His sons in His image and likeness. whether to make it available to the world, or give it to you personally.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

you don't chose anything.

Adam didn't chose to be:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

that wasn't a destination that was where Adam started, the Life you would have received if it wasn't "lost". so that was God's choice for man, and still is, therefore what can be restored to it? isn't God the Judge of that? therefore its really God's choice, He chose you before you gave it a thought.

today the sons of man in man's image are predestined by Adam's choice, not yours. the sons of God are predestined, by God's choice, not by His sons.


isn't one's glory because of one's choices? chose the right trade, the right business, the right spouse, the right house, so on and so forth. God's choosing is no one else's Glory. God's choices and the results thereof is His Glory.


see the freewillers want that glory that they are saved because of their own choice, making themselves self-righteous. they are basically telling you they chose God. but yet you can't be born of God's Spirit without God's permission. as Jesus says by the will of the Spirit, by the Father drawing you to the Son.

the choice to be denied the Life God gave Adam was Adam's choice for you, being the father of all men in Adam's image. the choice to give you the Life God gave who was to be the son of God is God's choice, being the Father of His sons in His image and likeness. whether to make it available to the world, or give it to you personally.

so you think people are predestined for hell because God wanted it that way?

 

[DPMartin]

so you think people are predestined for hell because God wanted it that way?

read again

 

[GodsGrace]

you don't chose anything.

Adam didn't chose to be:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

that wasn't a destination that was where Adam started, the Life you would have received if it wasn't "lost". so that was God's choice for man, and still is, therefore what can be restored to it? isn't God the Judge of that? therefore its really God's choice, He chose you before you gave it a thought.

today the sons of man in man's image are predestined by Adam's choice, not yours. the sons of God are predestined, by God's choice, not by His sons.


isn't one's glory because of one's choices? chose the right trade, the right business, the right spouse, the right house, so on and so forth. God's choosing is no one else's Glory. God's choices and the results thereof is His Glory.


see the freewillers want that glory that they are saved because of their own choice, making themselves self-righteous. they are basically telling you they chose God. but yet you can't be born of God's Spirit without God's permission. as Jesus says by the will of the Spirit, by the Father drawing you to the Son.

the choice to be denied the Life God gave Adam was Adam's choice for you, being the father of all men in Adam's image. the choice to give you the Life God gave who was to be the son of God is God's choice, being the Father of His sons in His image and likeness. whether to make it available to the world, or give it to you personally.

When one strays from God's word the result is mumbo jumbo.

Adam had no free will?
Then why did God tell him not to eat of the forbidden fruit?
So you're saying GOD made Adam and Eve eat?
Some God you've decided to serve.

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the great debates in modern Christianity are the beliefs of John Calvin.
Such a great man had much to say but we'll just look at Tulip here.

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

I agree with total depravity, we are sinners and need a Savior.
But Calvin goes further, adding that God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

I have a problem understanding this.
Would anyone like to touch on this?

Unconditional election is another that looks okay on the service but the belief that some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
I have a problem with this also.

The fifth part, perseverance of the saints I am in total agreement with.
We cannot lose our salvation. Phil. 1:6 , God is the one that is faithful to perfect us til the day Jesus comes.

But part three, Limited atonement, I disagree with.
Calvinism teaches that Jesus' atonement on the Cross was limited, that is, that He died only for a chosen group, His "elect," not for the sins of the entire world. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross for all sins of all people, and that anyone who wants to can accept Him as Lord and Savior and be born again.

Also, I reject irresistible grace.
If God calls you, you cannot resist.
I believe that man has a free will and he can resist the call of God if he chooses to do so.

There's a lot more to Calvin,more than I'll ever know.
But people take sides with Tulip.
Do you know what you believe concerning Tulip?

We are not totally depraved.
We have a sin nature, but not total depravity.
T D means there is no good in us. It means we are so depraved that we cannot even hear the word of God unless He forces us to because He wishes to save someone.

The Bible says that faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Can anyone hear it? Yes. Then they decide to answer yes or no.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

read again

I don't understand, that's why I asked

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't understand, that's why I asked

He's going to hate to answer this question because the answer is Yes.
If God chooses who's going to heaven then, by default, He's also choosing who's going to hell.

This cannot be true because God desires all to be saved, not just some.
1 Timothy 2:4

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

He's going to hate to answer this question because the answer is Yes.
If God chooses who's going to heaven then, by default, He's also choosing who's going to hell.

This cannot be true because God desires all to be saved, not just some.
1 Timothy 2:4

Also John 3:17;.

 

[GodsGrace]

Also John 3:17;.

Amen.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Amen.

Who are you anyway?
What happened to the other girl in the picture?

 

[GodsGrace]

Who are you anyway?
What happened to the other girl in the picture?

She grew up.

 

[DPMartin]

When one strays from God's word the result is mumbo jumbo.

Adam had no free will?
Then why did God tell him not to eat of the forbidden fruit?
So you're saying GOD made Adam and Eve eat?
Some God you've decided to serve.

to live the Life God gave him, Adam didn't have a freewill. it was God's choice for Adam or die. again you don't choose the life you received when you come in to the world that was chosen for you, a life of flesh in the flesh that actually God chose for Adam after the incident with the tree. A&E were dead meat and they knew it. they didn't say well we can still live in the flesh, but the Lord God let them continue in the flesh without the original Life chosen for them. animals already had dust to dust and ashes to ashes. remember animals were there already. I don't think they chose that ether.

the Life of "was to be son of God" wasn't chosen by Adam, it was chosen by God for Adam, otherwise its death. A&E still died that day of the Life God gave them. read the bible, and what it actually says. there's no walking away from the instruction of life and live.


A&E didn't chose to die, they trusted something other than the Word of God, which according to Jesus man is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. every word, that is the Life that was to be lived by A&E that was "lost".

A&E lived in a situation were they had to do what is told them by God, or they die. the Kingdom of God isn't a democracy, and nether was the Garden of Eden. there's no freewill in that, when Satan displeased God, Jesus says he fell out of heaven like a bolt of lightening. in the Presence of God its His Way or death. again no freedom as understood by the democratic concept there. there is no voting in the Kingdom of God.

 

[APAK]

Interesting, I agree until your last statement
God knows what will happen ahead of time, therefore he knows our predestination.
But the question is, "did he choose our destination or did he just know what our destination would be?
But what if he interferred to make our destination happen?
Such as saving my life so 3 years later I would be alive to accept him as my Lord and Savior.
Did his saving me from death bring about my salvation or was that all part of the plan because he knew if I lived long enough, I would choose to be with him?
I don't know where in Scripture to find these answers.

Rollo: fantastic ??? full marks

These two comments by you apply...
"...or did he just know what our destination would be?
But what if he interfered to make our destination happen?.."

Let me explain a little more...

I believe the crux of the problem is when we do not believe or take to heart that God said he is all-knowing. It means a lot.

It means that time and space is irrelevant to him and he can inject or cause us (‘free -will’), to make us think we are modifying our lives. We think we made the changes although all along it was God’s doing beforehand.

Can we image what it would be like to know the future of peoples’ action? We cannot.

Let’s imagine God already has seen ALL of Rollo’s life on earth from BEFORE his conception to his place in the heavens. I believe he has already……

God wants Rollo to become a believer in Christ, like all people he desires this. Rollo has shown to God since his birth that he desires to know God, even in the subtlest ways. Rollo is not yet a believer. God saw a trend(s) of kindness, love, and other characteristics in his life that God favors. God see hope in this human called Rollo. God sees Rollo as a viable and suitable candidate that will ‘choose’ him. He sees Rollo’s near death in the future. God intervened before Rollo was conceived to make this the point in time where Rollo would come to God. Now this is the simplistic way to describe how and why God intervenes for his pleasure as he want Rollo to come to him. It is God’s prerogative when and how he will make this happen though.

Now today, Rollo reflects on how he came to Christ and believes he did it all, using his own free will. Did he really have free-will, I think not.

Now I also believe that if Rollo never portrayed any characteristics/acts that God desires and never saw it ever in his entire life, Rollo would never be part of the elect.

I have to say my story went down in a dire and yet different way. I lived unwittingly and ignorantly with the two biggest drug dealers in town. I didn’t realize it. My life could have snuffed out at any time. I was also entertaining death when an ex-husband was about to literally duel me over his ex-wife with a real gun duel. It was to the death. Looking back, God pulled me out of it, not at that time, he did it before I was conceived. He already saw my life completed. We tend to treat God as intervening on human limited terms. When something bad occurs and we ‘survive’ we say that God intervened at the time and never before we were born. Many preachers believe that God intervenes on a human timeline and they spew this at to loved ones, in ‘church’ sermons,,etc. They are completely wrong. We are limiting God as he is all-knowing.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[pia]

So no, I don't fit in neatly in neither box

Amen to that.....We shouldn't put God into a little box, nor ourselves....

 

[FHII]

This has nothing to do with the TULIP, but more to do with John Calvin, the preacher. Calvin was not a Calvinist.

He didn't preach TULIP. His flowers did after he died. Today, Calvinism is even far away from what his followers preached.

I have not read all his works, but I have read the pertinent works. If you fault me for that, well... You clearly don't know the man! He could write 30 pages about the first 10 verses of genesis chapter 1! And he covered the whole Bible in his writings!

He wrote some 50 books. I haven't counted... In one book he devoted 3 chapters to predestination.... Never once claiming TULIP. he sid talj spiratically about the topic in other chapters and works. He often co tradicted himself.

My point is he talked about every aspect in the Bible, yet a mere 3 chapters of one book defines him...

If you want to talk "Calvinism", go ahead... But realize that he didn't invent it.

But heck.... Truth ain't that important, is it?