Tulip

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GodsGrace

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Utter nonsense, out of context Scripture and straw man arguments. It's hilarious you call faith a gift as well. Lolzzzz...

Knowing God has elected is a comfort because it rests in him. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 is a beautiful passage proving it is God who chose and he gets all the glory. In your unbiblical system that doesn't happen. :)
Would you care to address your understanding of my point in no. 74?
 

Preacher4Truth

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I know of two pastors just offhand that left calvinism behind when they realized that god is not the God of the bible...because it does exactly what you've stated above.
If it does the above it just shows they hate the God of Scripture, not that he's not the God of Scripture. Nothing you've ever said has refuted a thing, it appears you're simply bitter and love to use Scripture out of context and talk of what you've done to save your soul.

Let's use your argument of "proof" above in another scenario to see if it's a valid test and is consistent:

Many Baptists have converted to being a JW because they became convinced their Jesus isn't the real Jesus and isn't the God of Scripture, but the Watch Tower god is. Therefore the JW's have to be true Christianity and have the true God.
 

Preacher4Truth

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1. If God chooses,,,,then you will never be certain He has chosen you.

Straw man. I mean, how many straw men do you own? It's like an endless amount. Try 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Furthermore, ROmans 8:28 doesn't apply to you, you cannot claim it, it's to the elect. That's the context. Since God didn't choose you, and you vehemently deny this truth, you cannot be elect.

Most theologians agree that the gift is a combination of faith and salvation...
the whole package.

It could also be only faith
or only salvation.

I don't care about your above because it's unsubstantiated, and, it's not based in Scripture, but is purely subjective. It proves nothing. Your above also exposes you, you believe salvation is earned and maintained by works. That means it's a false gospel.

Secondly, Scripture is quite clear, glaringly clear in fact that faith is a gift. And it is quite clear that salvation is also a gift. You've denied every Scripture that proves these things, you just cannot fathom giving God all the glory, or, that he is actually God. So what do you do? You blaspheme and call him a monster. :rolleyes:

You really need to slow your roll there and end going there. You're not doing it in ignorance any longer, you do it out of disdain for truth shown you.

There is debate about this so I don't think WE should be so certain of what it means.

The only debate is from those who don't believe Scripture in context, like yourself. THAT is where the argument comes from. Perhaps go study passages in context, or sermons that use exegesis and context (no, you don't do that, sorry) and learn. Sad thing is you totally reject Soli Deo Gloria. You say you don't, but, you do. :)
 

GodsGrace

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Straw man. I mean, how many straw men do you own? It's like an endless amount. Try 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Furthermore, ROmans 8:28 doesn't apply to you, you cannot claim it, it's to the elect. That's the context. Since God didn't choose you, and you vehemently deny this truth, you cannot be elect.



I don't care about your above because it's unsubstantiated, and, it's not based in Scripture, but is purely subjective. It proves nothing. Your above also exposes you, you believe salvation is earned and maintained by works. That means it's a false gospel.

Secondly, Scripture is quite clear, glaringly clear in fact that faith is a gift. And it is quite clear that salvation is also a gift. You've denied every Scripture that proves these things, you just cannot fathom giving God all the glory, or, that he is actually God. So what do you do? You blaspheme and call him a monster. :rolleyes:

You really need to slow your roll there and end going there. You're not doing it in ignorance any longer, you do it out of disdain for truth shown you.



The only debate is from those who don't believe Scripture in context, like yourself. THAT is where the argument comes from. Perhaps go study passages in context, or sermons that use exegesis and context (no, you don't do that, sorry) and learn. Sad thing is you totally reject Soli Deo Gloria. You say you don't, but, you do. :)
My dear man,
You don't seem to get the point.
I'm not angry. You really should stop speaking to me in such a personal way.
I DO NOT AGREE WITH CALVIN...
ON ANYTHING.

And I always post verses.
You claim I don't know context.
Fine.

Our conversations end here.
Perhaps it is YOU that does not understand:
GOD
CONTEXT
SOTERIOLOGY
 

GodsGrace

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Straw man. I mean, how many straw men do you own? It's like an endless amount. Try 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Furthermore, ROmans 8:28 doesn't apply to you, you cannot claim it, it's to the elect. That's the context. Since God didn't choose you, and you vehemently deny this truth, you cannot be elect.



I don't care about your above because it's unsubstantiated, and, it's not based in Scripture, but is purely subjective. It proves nothing. Your above also exposes you, you believe salvation is earned and maintained by works. That means it's a false gospel.

Secondly, Scripture is quite clear, glaringly clear in fact that faith is a gift. And it is quite clear that salvation is also a gift. You've denied every Scripture that proves these things, you just cannot fathom giving God all the glory, or, that he is actually God. So what do you do? You blaspheme and call him a monster. :rolleyes:

You really need to slow your roll there and end going there. You're not doing it in ignorance any longer, you do it out of disdain for truth shown you.



The only debate is from those who don't believe Scripture in context, like yourself. THAT is where the argument comes from. Perhaps go study passages in context, or sermons that use exegesis and context (no, you don't do that, sorry) and learn. Sad thing is you totally reject Soli Deo Gloria. You say you don't, but, you do. :)
P.S.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
and Romans 8:28

HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH predestinating certain persons to salvataion.

Maybe you could use CONTEXT to figure out what they DO mean.
God wishes all to be saved.
Accept it.
John 12:46
 

Preacher4Truth

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I have a serious question.
@Preacher4Truth could also answer this.

When God made covenants He promised blessings on those that would follow the covenant rules and cursings on those that would not. This was true for the conditional covenants....For example, the Edenic Covenant.

What I'd like to know is if God spoke of blessings and curses....how is He a just God if it's HE that causes each person to be the way they are....as the potter and the vessel in Romans 9? Persons are only doing what HE predestined them to do or to be.

Edenic Covenant:
Blessing - Eternal Life
Curse - Death (physical and spiritual)

Mosaic Covenant:
Blessings - Lev 26:3-13 Deut 28:1-14
Curses - Lev 26:14-46 Deut 28:15-68


Why have curses at all?
When man's path is left up to himself, the end result is what? Eternal death, cursing &c.

When God's plan of salvation is revealed that it is all him, that he does all the saving the end result is eternal life. That's the Gospel in comparison.

He set out to elect his people to salvation. This is a glaring truth, and you reject it.

But the issue is that you must first believe the Gospel, and have a proper and true Gospel, which comes with a true revelation of who God is by his sovereign will to reveal himself to whom he wills to do so (Note Matthew 11:25-30). And you must understand that all those who do are drawn are saved, and none other. That is the context of that passage. It reeks of his Sovereign election. Instead of this, you try to find a verse somewhere you think contradicts this, which is silly.

Until you embrace and understand this, you'll read things into covenants that are not there. You have to start with a true Gospel.

So I ask: List everything you have to do to get yourself into heaven and I'll comment further, and end the calling God a "monster" you do not know what you're doing.
 

GodsGrace

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When man's path is left up to himself, the end result is what? Eternal death, cursing &c.

When God's plan of salvation is revealed that it is all him, that he does all the saving the end result is eternal life. That's the Gospel in comparison.

He set out to elect his people to salvation. This is a glaring truth, and you reject it.

But the issue is that you must first believe the Gospel, and have a proper and true Gospel, which comes with a true revelation of who God is by his sovereign will to reveal himself to whom he wills to do so (Note Matthew 11:25-30). And you must understand that all those who do are drawn are saved, and none other. That is the context of that passage. It reeks of his Sovereign election. Instead of this, you try to find a verse somewhere you think contradicts this, which is silly.

Until you embrace and understand this, you'll read things into covenants that are not there. You have to start with a true Gospel.

So I ask: List everything you have to do to get yourself into heaven and I'll comment further, and end the calling God a "monster" you do not know what you're doing.
When man's path is left up to himself, the end result is what? Eternal death, cursing &c.

When God's plan of salvation is revealed that it is all him, that he does all the saving the end result is eternal life. That's the Gospel in comparison.

He set out to elect his people to salvation. This is a glaring truth, and you reject it.

But the issue is that you must first believe the Gospel, and have a proper and true Gospel, which comes with a true revelation of who God is by his sovereign will to reveal himself to whom he wills to do so (Note Matthew 11:25-30). And you must understand that all those who do are drawn are saved, and none other. That is the context of that passage. It reeks of his Sovereign election. Instead of this, you try to find a verse somewhere you think contradicts this, which is silly.

Until you embrace and understand this, you'll read things into covenants that are not there. You have to start with a true Gospel.

So I ask: List everything you have to do to get yourself into heaven and I'll comment further, and end the calling God a "monster" you do not know what you're doing.
That is not an answer to my question but your usual and incorrect
Proclamation.

Which means you are incapable of answering.
You seem to be expert at creating strawmen instead of answering.

Your theology makes no sense.
God is not a God of confusion.
 

Preacher4Truth

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My dear man,
You don't seem to get the point.
I'm not angry. You really should stop speaking to me in such a personal way.
I DO NOT AGREE WITH CALVIN...
ON ANYTHING.

Oh, I get the point, and you know I get the point, that's the problem, you cannot stand that.

Don't talk to you in a personal way, after the above "My dear man?" LOL!

Yes, I know, you don't agree with all of Scripture or context. The issue isn't really Calvin, it's truth, context, who God is, who you are, and the Gospel. That's what you really have trouble with.

And I always post verses.
You claim I don't know context.
Fine.

Where's the Scripture you "always" post in your last several posts? And here? Thing is you rarely use it, and almost never use proper context, which means arriving at an errant conclusion.

Yep. You do. Accept it for once.

Our conversations end here.
Perhaps it is YOU that does not understand:
GOD
CONTEXT
SOTERIOLOGY

That's fine, tuck tail if you feel the need. It's apparent you can not handle things when it boils down to the true way Scripture is intended. I pray someday you will though. Right now you're running.

I do understand God (as much as by grace he's revealed, whom you call a "monster). I do use context which is why I see your errors clearly, and you refuse to use it. I do understand soteriology, it is summed up in this: "Soli Deo Gloria." The rest of the Solas bring further clarity.

It is all God. :)
 

Preacher4Truth

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P.S.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
and Romans 8:28 HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH predestinating certain persons to salvataion.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 is perfectly clear. It's so clear and unmistakable here it is:

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

"God chose you." To what end? "as the firstfruits to be saved." That's called election to salvation.

How? Through setting them, sanctifying them apart unto the Holy Spirit, and by belief in the truth.

By what means? Note 2 Thessalonians 2:14 shows it was via the means of the Gospel.

Now, show us a commentator who denies the above and holds your view that the above is not true.

Now, I know you simply do not believe any of this: insert you.

You also believe people get into heaven without the Gospel. If not, God is a monster to you. That is what you believe, you have determined God is a monster if the does not bow to your bidding, allow you to determine where you will spend eternity &c.


They were chosen unto salvation and that is a fact. This is the same for all believers, they are no different, all are saved in the same way according to God's purpose and will and it has been thus from OT to NT because it is all of God. Ephesians 1 says the same thing. Titus 1 as well. MANY others. You cannot claim Romans 8:28 -- it's to the elect, and you reject this.


Maybe you could use CONTEXT to figure out what they DO mean.
God wishes all to be saved.
Accept it.
John 12:46

More Scripture out of context and rejection of the truth above. I've already given you the context of all the above, but, you reject it.

In fact, you plainly reject the God of Scripture and his Gospel.

To you, he is a monster, so you've made yourself a more manageable god and gospel and control him and your destiny by your almighty "free will."

Good luck with that.
 
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GodsGrace

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@ Thessalonians is perfectly clear. They were chosen unto salvation. Ephesians 1 is the same thing. Titus 1 as well. MANY others. You cannot claim Romans 8:28 -- it's to the elect, and you reject this.




More Scripture out of context and rejection of the truth above. I've already given you the context of all the above, but, you reject it.

In fact, you plainly reject the God of Scripture and his Gospel.

To you, he is a monster, so you've made yourself a more manageable god and gospel and control him and your destiny by your almighty "free will."

Good luck with that.
You've never debunked free will.
Philemon 1:14
 

Rollo Tamasi

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Utter nonsense, out of context Scripture and straw man arguments. It's hilarious you call faith a gift as well. Lolzzzz...

Knowing God has elected is a comfort because it rests in him. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 is a beautiful passage proving it is God who chose and he gets all the glory. In your unbiblical system that doesn't happen. :)
God chooses but the door is currently open for all to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior and become chosen.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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Utter nonsense, out of context Scripture and straw man arguments. It's hilarious you call faith a gift as well. Lolzzzz...

Knowing God has elected is a comfort because it rests in him. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 is a beautiful passage proving it is God who chose and he gets all the glory. In your unbiblical system that doesn't happen. :)


This response reeks of Calvinism.
Faith is a gift as quoted in 1 Corinthians 12.
In Luke, the Apostles asked Jesus for an increase in faith.
God wants us to have the greater gifts, and if he knows in your heart that you want stronger faith, you will get it.
A weak church needs people with strong faith.
People need to pray for the gift of faith.

Putting down the need for faith is anti-Christian.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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What do you mean by "and become chosen?"
Chosen is a choice.
I can only use an analogy.
On a playground years ago, I picked a guy to be on my basketball team.
He didn't want to be on my team so he walked away.
He was chosen but he chose not to accept it.
Being chosen is a choice, do you want Jesus or not, because God chose to save the whole world, not just Calvinists (John 3:17;)
 

Preacher4Truth

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Chosen is a choice.

AMEN!!! It was God's choice, not mans. :)

I can only use an analogy.

Most who misuse Scripture like their analogies better, it's where they derive their gospel just as you have.

But, carry on.

On a playground years ago, I picked a guy to be on my basketball team.
He didn't want to be on my team so he walked away.
He was chosen but he chose not to accept it.
Being chosen is a choice, do you want Jesus or not, because God chose to save the whole world, not just Calvinists (John 3:17;)

Ahhh, that proves it, "on a playground years ago!" Who knew?

So you made up your own gospel based on analogies, playground stories and out of context Scripture. It's like choosing a dude to play on your team, but he thought you weren't that good, and declined.

So that must be what the Bible means, so let's integrate it into Scripture and do some eisegetical surgery. And not use one verse.

Got it.

Being chosen is a choice: it is God's choice. It isn't man's, John 1:13; Romans 9:11ff; but it is God's; Ephesians 1:4ff; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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This response reeks of Calvinism.
Faith is a gift as quoted in 1 Corinthians 12.
In Luke, the Apostles asked Jesus for an increase in faith.
God wants us to have the greater gifts, and if he knows in your heart that you want stronger faith, you will get it.
A weak church needs people with strong faith.
People need to pray for the gift of faith.

Putting down the need for faith is anti-Christian.
No one has put down the need for faith. The above reeks of your lack of comprehension and shows why you arrive at false conclusions. You do the same in all of your reading, including Scripture. This is why you need someone to assist you; Ephesians 4:11ff. :)
 

GodsGrace

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No one has put down the need for faith. The above reeks of your lack of comprehension and shows why you arrive at false conclusions. You do the same in all of your reading, including Scripture. This is why you need someone to assist you; Ephesians 4:11ff. :)
Does your theology teach you to be so condescending to people?
You must not know how much God loves His creation,,, us.
Paul said to imitate him as he imitates God.
Is God happy with how You treat others?
Luke 6:31
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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One of the great debates in modern Christianity are the beliefs of John Calvin.
Such a great man had much to say but we'll just look at Tulip here.

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

I agree with total depravity, we are sinners and need a Savior.

It seems to me, if a person believes in the first one (total depravity), then he would have to believe in the rest of them. Reason being:
--if all are born into this world totally depraved, then NONE could ever come to God and be saved, therefore
--God had to unconditionally choose/elect some to be saved
--those God chose/elected then would be the only ones Christ died and shed His blood for
--they would come to God irresistibly, could not reject God's choosing of them
--those God elected, God makes sure they will persevere and be saved.

I am not a Calvinist for the reason that:
--men are NOT born totally depraved nature, which means the U and L and I and P are not Biblical and fall like dominoes.
--since men are born with ability to choose to do well or not (Genesis 4:7) men can choose to come to God.
--Christ died for all, so salvation is available to any and all who choose to come to Christ
--since men can choose to come to Christ and be saved, God does not need to force salvation upon man thru irresistible grace.
--God does not force people to be saved against their will preventing them from ever being lost.


One person sums it up this way:

"Consider the following progression of TULIP:
People are born so evil that they cannot even want to do what is right (Total Hereditary Depravity). Because we cannot even want to do good, God must override our will and force us to be saved (Irresistible Grace). Because God is forcing us to obey Him, we can do nothing to damn ourselves (Perseverance of the Saints)." -Bryan Sharp

Another puts it this way:
The fundamental premises of Calvinism may be summed up in this well-known saying of a bygone era:

  • Everyone’s salvation or condemnation was determined before time began.
  • Therefore, if one seeks redemption, he cannot find it.
  • If he finds it, he cannot obtain it.
  • If he obtains it, he cannot lose it!
 
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GodsGrace

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It seems to me, if a person believes in the first one (total depravity), then he would have to believe in the rest of them. Reason being:
--if all are born into this world totally depraved, then NONE could ever come to God and be saved, therefore
--God had to unconditionally choose/elect some to be saved
--those God chose/elected then would be the only ones Christ died and shed His blood for
--they would come to God irresistibly, could not reject God's choosing of them
--those God elected, God makes sure they will persevere and be saved.

I am not a Calvinist for the reason that:
--men are NOT born totally depraved nature, which means the U and L and I and P are not Biblical and fall like dominoes.
--since men are born with ability to choose to do well or not (Genesis 4:7) men can choose to come to God.
--Christ died for all, so salvation is available to any and all who choose to come to Christ
--since men can choose to come to Christ and be saved, God does not need to force salvation upon man thru irresistible grace.
--God does not force people to be saved against their will preventing them from ever being lost.


One person sums it up this way:

"Consider the following progression of TULIP:
People are born so evil that they cannot even want to do what is right (Total Hereditary Depravity). Because we cannot even want to do good, God must override our will and force us to be saved (Irresistible Grace). Because God is forcing us to obey Him, we can do nothing to damn ourselves (Perseverance of the Saints)." -Bryan Sharp

Another puts it this way:
The fundamental premises of Calvinism may be summed up in this well-known saying of a bygone era:

  • Everyone’s salvation or condemnation was determined before time began.
  • Therefore, if one seeks redemption, he cannot find it.
  • If he finds it, he cannot obtain it.
  • If he obtains it, he cannot lose it!
I like that last paragraph!
Never heard it.

@Rollo Tamasi will speak for himself,,,but I do believe he meant that he believes in depravity, as we all do...
NOT TOTAL depravity which makes man INCAPABLE,,,as you've stated.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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I like that last paragraph!
Never heard it.

@Rollo Tamasi will speak for himself,,,but I do believe he meant that he believes in depravity, as we all do...
NOT TOTAL depravity which makes man INCAPABLE,,,as you've stated.
Hi,

There are many verses that speak to the fact that man is wicked, sinful, evil but no verse says he is born that way against his will. Men that are wicked, sinful because they choose to be that way. If you were born only able to do what is wicked, evil and sinful then you would have an excuse for your behavior (yet men are 'without excuse' before God Romans 1:20). You could not justly, rightly be held accountable for how you were born. Could you rightly, justly hold a person born without legs accountable for not walking? But since man is capable of choosing to well or not (Genesis 4:7) each of us will be rightly held accountable for our choices. One of the things about Calvinism that puts God in a bad light is God causing a man to do what is wrong, then God punishes that man for the wrong God made him do.
 
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