Two Tribulations?

[Trekson]

Even if so, Jesus spoke to his present audience, not to any in the future, about the Abomination of Desolation and Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

If you want to go that route then everything Christ and the rest of the NT authors said or wrote just isn't for us, we should just ignore it all? They are all full of personal pronouns. Christ knew he was speaking to future generations, he often spoke of the hereafter. We know that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The only difference are things spoken of regarding the law. In Matt. 24, Jesus gave a whole lot of signs to look for and 70 ad just doesn't add up!

 

[Trekson]

This one Scripture UTTERLY DEMOLISHES any belief that the Great Tribulation is past (and your whole fantastical theory). According to Christ this event (which extends over a period of at least three or more years) is TOTALLY UNIQUE. Which means it has not taken place as yet.

And just so that no one would foolishly claim that it happened in 70 AD, we have the following verse: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (v 29).

No honest (or dishonest) person would claim that this has been fulfilled, but according to Dave, it has been fulfilled. Which means that he is either (a) dishonest or (b) deluded.

Hi Enoch, I agree with almost everything you said but as a pre-wrather we do not believe the latter part of the 70th week is the GT. In fact, we believe the GT is meant for the still here church per Rev. 12:17 and will be the last thing to occur prior to the 6th seal. We believe Rev. 7:9, 17 depict the pre-wrath raptured church.

 

[Enoch111]

Hi Enoch, I agree with almost everything you said but as a pre-wrather we do not believe the latter part of the 70th week is the GT.

There are many who take that position, but if cannot be. When we tie Daniel's 70th *week* of seven years to the Tribulation (first 3 1/2 years) followed by the Great Tribulation (3 1/2) everything falls in to place.

According to the Olivet Discourse the Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation, and according to Daniel the Abomination of Desolation is set up in "the midst of the week", when the Antichrist causes "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".

According to 2 Thessalonians the Antichrist cannot take control of the world for 3 1/2 years until the Restrainer is "taken out of the way", the Restrainer being the Holy Spirit. And since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church (the Body of Christ) both the Church and the Holy Spirit must be removed from the earth before Satan and the Antichrist take absolute control of the inhabitants of the world. That is also *the time of Jacob's trouble*, which is in fact the Tribulation.

 

[brakelite]

This is what the Reformers mistakenly believed about the Antichrist. But the pope cannot be, and will not be, the Antichrist. He may assist, but that is all.

As to the rest of your post, let's just say that if you begin with false premises, you will end up with false conclusions.

You are correct. The Pope is not the Antichrist. But that isn't what the reformers believed. It was the seat... The throne... The system... The papacy itself... That the reformers believed was the Antichrist. And that is what Dave is saying. And they were right.

 

[brakelite]

Even if so, Jesus spoke to his present audience, not to any in the future, about the Abomination of Desolation and Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

Dave. I believe you are partly correct. The abomination of desolation that ended the Jewish era was indeed the army of Rome as they planted their idolatrous standards on holy ground.
But this was a type of that which is to come. The true complete fulfillment will be found in the not too distant future, when spiritual Israel/Jerusalem is surrounded again by the armies of Rome . But of course not pagan Rome as in the literal type, papal Rome, the Antichrist using the secular armies of the world to stamp out that remnant who refuse her mark and badge of authority.

 

[Dave L]

Dave. I believe you are partly correct. The abomination of desolation that ended the Jewish era was indeed the army of Rome as they planted their idolatrous standards on holy ground.
But this was a type of that which is to come. The true complete fulfillment will be found in the not too distant future, when spiritual Israel/Jerusalem is surrounded again by the armies of Rome . But of course not pagan Rome as in the literal type, papal Rome, the Antichrist using the secular armies of the world to stamp out that remnant who refuse her mark and badge of authority.

This assumes a millennial position. But being Amillennial I believe it is past and over. With great tribulation for the church being the norm.

 

[Dave L]

If you want to go that route then everything Christ and the rest of the NT authors said or wrote just isn't for us, we should just ignore it all? They are all full of personal pronouns. Christ knew he was speaking to future generations, he often spoke of the hereafter. We know that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The only difference are things spoken of regarding the law. In Matt. 24, Jesus gave a whole lot of signs to look for and 70 ad just doesn't add up!

Please pay attention to the verb tenses. They solve many riddles and debunk many false end times beliefs.

 

[Trekson]

There are many who take that position, but if cannot be. When we tie Daniel's 70th *week* of seven years to the Tribulation (first 3 1/2 years) followed by the Great Tribulation (3 1/2) everything falls in to place.

According to the Olivet Discourse the Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation, and according to Daniel the Abomination of Desolation is set up in "the midst of the week", when the Antichrist causes "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".

According to 2 Thessalonians the Antichrist cannot take control of the world for 3 1/2 years until the Restrainer is "taken out of the way", the Restrainer being the Holy Spirit. And since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church (the Body of Christ) both the Church and the Holy Spirit must be removed from the earth before Satan and the Antichrist take absolute control of the inhabitants of the world. That is also *the time of Jacob's trouble*, which is in fact the Tribulation.

Hi Enoch, While Daniel's 70th week is our timeline, nowhere in the bible does it speak of a seven year period of tribulation, that is a man-made concoction. Yes, there are several different measurable 3 1/2 periods mentioned in Rev. but none of them describe themselves as the first or latter half of the 70th week. Some of them could overlap, they could all be the same time period and there is nothing in scripture that prevents one from being years 2-5 give or take. We label them first or last because it makes a pretty, understandable picture, but I'm not sure it's that cut and dried. There is also nothing in the bible that offers us a length of time to Jacob's trouble, again this is an assumption on our part. There is also nothing in scripture that gives us the duration of the great trib, we just know when it will begin. The word "midst" does not mean the exact middle. It can mean just sometime within that seven year framework.

FYI, prewrath believes the restrainer is Michael as depicted in Rev. 12 and Dan. 12:1. The Holy Spirit being omni-present just can't be "removed". Also, within the context of the 70th week there are too many miracles occurring, whether good or bad, to believe that the HS just vanishes, I mean look around us, the HS doesn't have to be gone for evil to reign upon the earth.

 

[brakelite]

This assumes a millennial position. But being Amillennial I believe it is past and over. With great tribulation for the church being the norm.

Read my new topic The Elephant in the Room etc...and you will understand why I believe this to be so, not just through prophecy, but current events. The inevitable future for the church (remnant...those who don't capitulate under pressure) as a result of what is now transpiring is Matthew 24:9. Yes, I am premill. But not a mill. as is commonly believed.

 

[Dave L]

This one Scripture UTTERLY DEMOLISHES any belief that the Great Tribulation is past (and your whole fantastical theory). According to Christ this event (which extends over a period of at least three or more years) is TOTALLY UNIQUE. Which means it has not taken place as yet.

And just so that no one would foolishly claim that it happened in 70 AD, we have the following verse: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (v 29).

No honest (or dishonest) person would claim that this has been fulfilled, but according to Dave, it has been fulfilled. Which means that he is either (a) dishonest or (b) deluded.

"Nor ever will be" says it is past...............

 

[Trekson]

Please pay attention to the verb tenses. They solve many riddles and debunk many false end times beliefs.

When we speak forward in faith, the verb tenses don't necessarily equate with the reality, that is what faith is all about.

 

[Dave L]

Read my new topic The Elephant in the Room etc...and you will understand why I believe this to be so, not just through prophecy, but current events. The inevitable future for the church (remnant...those who don't capitulate under pressure) as a result of what is now transpiring is Matthew 24:9. Yes, I am premill. But not a mill. as is commonly believed.

I'll give it a look. But the verb tense Jesus used in Matthew 24 meant the disciples and not future generations would see the aod. You need to solve this before drawing your conclusions.

 

[Dave L]

When we speak forward in faith, the verb tenses don't necessarily equate with the reality, that is what faith is all about.

But they do define the audience.

 

[Trekson]

"Nor ever will be" says it is past...............

I hate to speak so lightly of the subject but there have been way to many things that have occurred historically that really dwarfs 70ad. Matt. 24:21 just wasn't that big of a deal from a tragedy standpoint.

 

[Dave L]

I hate to speak so lightly of the subject but there have been way to many things that have occurred historically that really dwarfs 70ad. Matt. 24:21 just wasn't that big of a deal from a tragedy standpoint.

The siege of Jerusalem is history. How do you deny it is not?

 

[Trekson]

But they do define the audience.

no Dave, they don't. To an eternal God, past, present and future are all the same, so speaking in the present tense about a future occurrance is just par for the course and per my previous point, all of the NT is speaking inn the present tense except for prophecies.

 

[Trekson]

The siege of Jerusalem is history. How do you deny it is not?

, I don't deny it, it just doesn't have "great" trib size or significance.

 

[Dave L]

, I don't deny it, it just doesn't have "great" trib size or significance.

Have you read Josephus on the matter?

 

[Dave L]

no Dave, they don't. To an eternal God, past, present and future are all the same, so speaking in the present tense about a future occurrance is just par for the course and per my previous point, all of the NT is speaking inn the present tense except for prophecies.

Tense determines the audience.

 

[101G]

70 AD was the great tribulation aimed only at the Jews. Jesus told the disciples "when you see" the abomination of desolation and the grouping of armies, leave the area. This they did. "When you see" is second person plural meaning them, and not us. But Christian great tribulation exists throughout the entire New Covenant era.

Greeting Dave, I been following this discussion. not saying that any is right nor wrong. to a point I understand your position of two tribulations, but from another prespective.

consider this, the destruction of the temple in AD70 was a tribulation for the Jews especially in their identity of religious worship. for the temple was the center of their worship service, hence the destruction is a tribulation for the Jews.

but consider this. could the way of life as a christian be another tribulation or blow to the Jews? here's what I mean, their center of Worship, the temple is destroyed, and now this growing way of life in Christ which many, not all rejected, is now the center of many coverted Jews worship even unto this day.

this is why just before the verse in question, the Lord Jesus said, these things,
Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Matthew 24:16 "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17 "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18 "Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:19 "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So, from the begining of time, (the Garden when man sinned) and the Lord Jesus said until now, meaning all the trouble the nation of Israel had, (even the bondage in Egypt, their captivity in Babylon, and all the diseases, and sickness, and infirmities that distressed them are nothing to be compared with the calamities which befell them, (the Jews), in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem, (meaning their Religious Identity is lost for ever.). that is troubling.

so I can see a double wammy of tribulation on the phyical, and spiritual side. because when the Lord gave this discourse it was concering the temple, which was the center of their worship

Matthew 24:1 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

two events, the destruction of the temple, and his coming.

the destruction of the temple, "GREAT TRIBULATION"
Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Before his coming, "TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS
Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately after or "also" after"Those days", the sun darken, moon no light, and stars are falling, all symbolic representative a. sun gospel, b. moon, no more Law, c. stars or messengers... ie prophets, preachers.... fallen, meaning false one. hence the spiritual tribulation.

that just my oponion looking at your assessmen of two tribulations. so don't hold me to it, just an oponion looking at two tribulation of the Jews.

even today some Jews don't acept Christ as their saviour.
Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.