There is only one Gog/Magog event. I never said that there were two Gog/Magog events.
Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39:1-6. Then 7 years in Ezekiel 39:17-20. Then Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20.
Gog/Magog is NOT Armageddon.
Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.
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There is only one Gog/Magog event. I never said that there were two Gog/Magog events.
Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39:1-6. Then 7 years in Ezekiel 39:17-20. Then Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20.
Gog/Magog is NOT Armageddon.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Wrong again.
The Pre-trib Rapture view is the false belief that the rapture will occur just PRIOR to the LATTER HALF of the 7 years...
[-------------------------------"one week" of Dan.9:27-----------------------]
[-----------------------------------7 Years-------------------------------------]
[-----------1260 days---------------]MID[------------1260 days-------------]
[-------------------------------------]AOD[--------"great tribulation"--------][Jesus' coming]
[-----------------------------]FALSE Pre-trib Rapture[------------------------]
Davy
Well-Known Member
Wrong again.
The Gog-Magog event is the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16 on the final 7th Vial.
This is also why the Ezekiel 39 Chapter leads into the Ezekiel 40 Chapter which is about the Millennium time of Rev.20.
There actually is one more Gog-Magog event, but it is for AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign per Rev.20 that begins at His return. And no nation alignment like Ezekiel 38 is given with it, plus it will involve the "camp of the saints" on earth, instead of Israel like today which mostly reject Jesus Christ.
Same Event...
Rev 16:21
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV
Ezek 38:22-23
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify Myself, and sanctify Myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV
The ONLY time when all nations will KNOW it is GOD Who brings that final destruction is on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes. That is what the these verses are about...
Ezek 39:7
7 So will I make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let them pollute My holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
KJV
Rev 19:17-19
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him That sat on the horse, and against His army.
KJV
That Rev.19:19 verse is SOLID PROOF that "the supper of the great God" is TIMED with the final day of this world when Jesus comes to battle those armies of the "beast" there. It is very simple. That "supper of the great God" IS... the great "sacrifice" of God He mentions in the Ezekiel 39 Chapter...
Ezek 39:4-5
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV
Ezek 39:17-19
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to My sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
KJV
That above reference, "and drink the blood of the princes of the earth", is about the LAST DAY battle and destruction of those armies on the final 7th Vial which is the same day as Rev.19 with Jesus' coming.
You are only pulling out the verses you WANT to use that you wrongly think... supports your theory, instead allowing God's Word to flow line upon line which point to the relevant Scripture in Christ's Revelation about the last day of this world.
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TribulationSigns
Active Member
On that I agree!
Sorry. This is where I disagree. Strangely, you view Ezekeil 39:1-6 as Gog and Magog war but in the same chapter in verses 17-20 as a battle of armageddon and say they are different battles. No, they are speaking about the same war. Your premillennialism indoctrination has deceived your carnal mind.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Again, you got WRONG Israel. God is NOT talking about national Israel because she is without military protection. Rather, it is the New Testament Congreation of Israel, the church where God has removed his protection hand from her because of her unfaithfulness so the army of Gog and Magog (False Prophets and Christs with their hordes of professed Christians attacking CHURCH all over the world).
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nah, that's trying to 'spiritualize' the literal things in Bible Scripture.
The Gog-Magog army for the end is given in Ezekiel 38 by the nation alignment shown there, which today, the only nation shown not yet in the alliance with 'Rus' (word "chief"), is Togarmah, which was the old area of Cappadocia, which today is the nation of Turkey.
So when we are given 'specifics' like that in God's Word, it is meant LITERALLY.
No, can't be. Israel has to be living in a state of being at ease when the Gog/Magog event takes place. Ezekiel 38:11.
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Davy, no, you have that wrong. The Pre-trib rapture view is before the 7 year 70th week begins. Proponents of the Pre-trib rapture view consider the entire 7 years as "tribulation".
Go to any site that holds to the Pre-trib rapture view and they will tell you the same.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
I didn't. God did that I can understand with spiritual discernment. You? Doubtfully because you are brainwashed by your own doctrine thinking God has prophesied about everything in literal sense.
So when you read in Ezekiel 38 about Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer, Togarmah, Sheba, Dedan, and Tarshish, you tend to believe God must have talking about physical land or countries where these countries used to be in Ezekiel's day? I used to think this way as hardcore premillennialist myself but God has opened my spiritual eyes to see the Truth.
We must study Scripture in the light and knowledge of who the true believer is. God, much of the time, speaks through the use of parables containing symbols, allegories, metaphors, etc. all in PICTURESQUE language. It is imperative to understand that we are NOT dismissing the literal and historical events of the Old Testament as mythical or fables in any way. God forbid! No, but rather we know without doubt that God moved the events of ancient Israel and her enemies as EXAMPLE: 1st Corinthians 10:11, and as our school master, Galatians 3:24, for the purpose of instructing His Church, the then future Bride of Christ, including both Jews and Gentiles.
Today God’s Church is identified as the Elect of God, Colossians 3:12; the Bride of Christ, Revelation 21:9; The Church, Matthew 16:18; Christians, Acts 11:26; The Holy City, Revelation 2:11; The New Jerusalem, Revelation 21:2; Mount Zion, Joel 2:32; The Whole House of Israel, Ezekiel 37:11, and The Israel of God, Galatians 6:16. There are certainly more titles that God places upon His Church, no doubt.
The one main ingredient or key to understanding the symbolism of Old Testament Scripture is in understanding the fact that Old Testament Israel was a prefigure or foreshadow of the New Testament Church - the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16. Once we come to truth on this matter.
Scripture will then open up to us with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and many more marvelous truths will then begin to fall into place. The true worshipper of Christ must know and understand who we really are! One cannot truly understand the Gog/Magog Battle apart from
realizing that the true believer in Christ is a New Testament spiritual Jew. And our church is spiritual Judea. Our eternal kingdom, our eternal life resides within and upon the spiritual “mountains” (kingdom) of Israel. Why? Because Jesus Christ is the Israel of Scripture!
So we should understand that the church is "Mountain of Israel" where Spiritual Jews are. The enemy countries of Ezekiel 38 are to signify our spiritual enemies within the church - the professed Christians, along with false prophets and christs. Please pay attention to this, look at what they wear!
Eze 38:3-5
(3) And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
(4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
(5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
Armour, bucklers, shields, swords, helmet. Sounds fimiliar? Aren't they similar to what we, Christians, wear in Ephesians 6:10-18?! God is telling us that our spiritual enemies are NOT Russians or Islamic States but PROFESSED CHRISTIANS among us who also wear the same clothings and weapons yet they lack Truth and Salvation. They come into the mountain of Israel, the church, to spoil her and to burn her because God no longer protect the unfaithful church. There are a lot more to tell you about Ezekiel 38 but I want you to understand first what God is trying to tell us. And the battle of Gog and Magog, to be quite frank, is actually taking place right now if you have spiritual eyes to see what's going on with churches all over the world. But you are too busy looking for physical fulfillment in the MIddle East with Fox News!
Wake up! We are Israel of God in the New TEstament. God gave us the Holy Spirit with armour, loins girt, breastplate, feet shod, shield, helmet, sword to fight against spiritual principalities and armies that wear almost the same WITHIN the Church all over the world!
Selah!
TribulationSigns
Active Member
You both are wrong. Sorry. But if you allow me to stretch your 7 years from the Cross to the Second Coming, and allow me to explain where the 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 days should be "final week" that will make more sense. Let me know if interested.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The Olivet Discourse included Christ's pronouncement of judgment against the physical structure of the Old Jerusalem temple which the Jews were so proud of. All of that grandeur for which Herod had spent so lavishly would not endure past that generation. It was destroyed down to the last stone in AD 70, almost as soon as the paint was dry, so to speak.
Old Jerusalem became the "habitation of devils" and a prison (phulake) for every unclean spirit in existence during those years from AD 66 until AD 70. Just how did God imprison every unclean spirit within Jerusalem's walls at that time? By imprisoning within besieged Jerusalem's walls the people which those unclean spirits were possessing. Confine the possessed person, and you confine the unclean spirit or multiple spirits determined to possess that individual. This was a judgment of seven-fold demonic possession which Christ said was coming for His own "wicked generation" in its "last state" in Matthew 12:43-45. "Weep for yourselves and for your children", Christ told the women of Jerusalem, since He knew what was coming for their generation.
Possession by unclean spirits was bad enough during the days of Christ's earthly ministry, but it paled in comparison to what came later for that first-century generation besieged within the city of Jerusalem. This oppression by the entire realm of unclean spirits imprisoned in Jerusalem created a period of tribulation never before experienced, and which would never again to be duplicated after that.
For your questions #2-#4 above, these were things that Jerusalem had been guilty of for a long time before AD 70 rolled around. God was reciting the past sins committed in the city by its religious leadership, the priesthood. The "kings of the earth" were Jerusalem's high priests, which for many years had corrupted the role by turning Jerusalem's temple into the "den of thieves" which Christ called it. Jerusalem's corrupted temple practices had been "good for business" by lining the priesthood's pockets with immense profits, but they had "corrupted the earth" in doing so. In vengeance, God was going to bring them to corruption in judgment for this.
There were some of the "kings of the earth", (high priests of the land of Israel) who managed to escape the besieged city of Jerusalem, and were standing "far off", mourning as they observed the smoke of Jerusalem going up in flames in AD 70. Josephus records their names.
It took more than a literal sixty minute "hour" for Jerusalem to be brought down by the close of AD 70's conflict. Scripture uses this term of an "hour" to illustrate that, comparatively speaking, it wasn't going to take long at all to bring down Jerusalem which until then had been considered absolutely impregnable. From Passover in AD 70 until just before the winter rains set in, by then the weakened city of Jerusalem had fallen to the Romans. Brief indeed.
The "merchandise" of the Old Jerusalem temple system is not bought or sold anymore. The light of the Menorah candle no longer shines in a non-existent temple, and no more animal sacrifices, wine, oil, incense, or grain offerings are offered there anymore. Neither are the temple trumpets sounded anymore, or the sound of temple musicians and harpists heard anymore. All of that was over and done when the temple went up in smoke and was torn down to the last stone.
You really have the "days of vengeance" misapplied. The "days of vengeance" would come upon Israel, and Old Jerusalem in particular in the AD 66-70 period. This "vengeance" had been predicted all the way back in Deuteronomy 32 in the "song of Moses" (which is being sung in Revelation 15:3).
God knew all the way back in Moses's day that His people Israel would depart from obeying Him in their "latter end" when their power was gone. He predicted in Deut. 32:43 bringing vengeance upon them for shedding the blood of His servants - the very same charge brought against Mystery Babylon / Old Jerusalem. Those "days of vengeance" in the AD 66-70 period fulfilled all the judgments that were written in scripture about it.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
That is not correct. Nowhere in Olivet Discourse did God talk about physical destruction with "stones falling." LIke the Jews (and disciples before they were filled with Holy Spirit), you thought Christ was talking about a physical building. The builders were the Jews as the stones and their temple/City was the Old Testament congregation.
Huh? What people? Did God imprison people by getting them within the wall of Jersualem for 4 years? LOL!!!!
God put possessed people within wall of Jersualem? Crazy talk.
Speculation and misapplication of Scripture.
Based on what? Who told you? God? Show us the Scripture. Your theories are starting to get too many holes with speculations. Not surprised with Preterism.
Tribulation has never been experienced before in the history of the world? Those people within Jersualem? Really? Where you get that idea from. Speculation? Come on, do better to show Scripture to prove that it is people within Jerusalem created a tribulation never before.
Already got the impression that you can't answer it honestly and biblically as you were babbling with speculations. For example, you said:
What?!
High priests of city Jersualem were the kings of the earth? Show us in Scripture where God said that.
Ahhh, here you go. You get an interpreation from Josephus.
No wondering your doctrine isn't biblical. Oh? A literal hour was what it took Jersualem to be completely destoryed by Roman? Where did you get that information from? Boy you are going with speculations lately, haven't you?
First you said it took literally sixty minutes for Jersualem to be brown down, now you claim the hour is just comparatively speaking. Sigh..
Not what the Lord talked about. You have no clues what Jesus mean by the winter and the sabbath. Because you lacks spiritual discernment. Just like the Jews.
It was not Old Jersualem temple the Lord talked about. It is the New Testament temple - the church where she was rich with her merchandises that points to Gospel.
LOL.
Again, we have no Biblical evidence of any intermingling of "diverse" responses. I believe that the real confusion rests in those who attempt to divide or separate Christ's words from verse to verse in order to allow them to conclude it's speaking of two different eras.
Luke 21:21-22
- "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
- For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."
Jeremiah 51:6-8
- "Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
- Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
- Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed."
There was no "days of vengeance" in 70AD. It is because you deny the biblical fact that the Old Testament Congregation ALREADY fell at the Cross with Jews as stones of the temple buildings. Not literal stones. And in three days, Christ rebuilt that temple and the builders of that new temple are Christians, whether JEws or Gentiles. So the prophecies of Matthew 24, etc. are actually pointing to New Testament congregation in the end. Not your 70AD fantasy.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You don't even know per God's Word that there are TWO Israels. If you had studied your Old Testament history like you're supposed to, you would have realized that God split the old nation of Israel into TWO SEPARATE KINGDOMS, and were named as two different 'houses' in God's Word. Then God divided them and scattered them separately, only leaving a SMALL REMNANT OF JEWS in the holy land. And it is those JEWS only that make up today's nation of Israel in the middle east.
The Ezekiel 38 Israel that is shown dwelling safely, WITHOUT WALLS, ain't... the Israel nation in the middle east! Or haven't you ever seen the Israel in the middle east, with all its WALLS, bars and gates, and Islamic radicals shooting rockets and mortars at it! Wake up!
The ISRAEL dwelling safely, at rest, without walls, bars, nor gates, is about the Christian West!
Davy
Well-Known Member
NOPE. I don't have the false theory you dwell on wrong. THEY... have it wrong.
The symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27 represents the final 7 years of the 70 weeks prophecy. And that verse shows in the MIDDLE, or MIDST of that 7 years ("one week") the false one will end sacrifices and instead place the abomination of desolation IDOL.
So what is the MIDDLE of that 7 years period? Surely you can do the little math required to figure that out?
The MIDDLE of the 7 years means that 7 years DIVIDED into 2 periods of 1260 days each. And at the MID point means there is 1260 days LEFT. And that latter half of 1260 days represents the future time of "great tribulation", which is the timing when God's "two witnesses" will appear in Jerusalem, and prophesy for that 1260 days, as written in Revelation 11.
Thus my little Chart is ACCURATE PER THE ACTUAL DANIEL 9:27 VERSE.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
See, that's an example of your CONFUSION.
The Bible does NOT show that.
Only the LATTER HALF of the symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27 represents that actual time of "great tribulation".
In Revelation 11, God's "two witnesses" are sent to Jerusalem to prophesy against the 'beast' at the end of this world, for 1260 days!
Rev 11:1-3
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
KJV
That "forty and two months" that the Gentiles will tread the holy city (Jerusalem), also represents that latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (7 years). The difference is one time is given based on a lunar reckoning (for the children of darkness), and the other is based on a solar reckoning (for the children of the day). One is actually about 10 days longer.
But that timing there is within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. Rev.11:14 forward shows God and His Son take over the kingdoms of this world at the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period. What timing then... does that 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period point to?? It points to the time of the "great tribulation" which happens just PRIOR to Christ's future return.
So there you have it FROM God's Word, not my own reasoning. The coming "great tribulation" will be the LATTER HALF of the Daniel 9:27 "one week" (7 years).
Davy
Well-Known Member
Can what I showed about the 1260 day latter half being about the "great tribulation" be confirmed by Scripture anywhere else? YES!!
In Matthew 24:15-21, Jesus warns of the "abomination of desolation" being setup in the "holy place". Then with that, He speaks of a time on earth that has never been the likes before, nor ever will be again, and then says then will be "great tribulation".
Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
OK, so how does that confirm the latter 1260 day half of the "one week" is the actual "great tribulation" time? Simple. Per the Daniel 9:27 verse, the false one comes at the MIDDLE of the 7 years to end sacrifices and setup the abomination of desolation that Jesus quoted at Matthew 24:15.
Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
Douay-Rheims
In Matthew 24:15-21, Jesus warns of the "abomination of desolation" being setup in the "holy place". Then with that, He speaks of a time on earth that has never been the likes before, nor ever will be again, and then says then will be "great tribulation".
Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
OK, so how does that confirm the latter 1260 day half of the "one week" is the actual "great tribulation" time? Simple. Per the Daniel 9:27 verse, the false one comes at the MIDDLE of the 7 years to end sacrifices and setup the abomination of desolation that Jesus quoted at Matthew 24:15.
Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
Douay-Rheims
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I know the bible does not call the 7 years - tribulation. I am just informing you what the proponents of the pre-trib rapture believe.
You can go to any pre-tib site and they are going to tell you that the entire 7 years is tribulation.
Again, I am not myself saying that the entire 7 years is - tribulation.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You don't have to try and tell me what the FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches, as if you think I'm ignorant of their doctrines, for I am not.
So I will CONTINUE to show how the FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory is a FALSE DOCTRINE from men, and HOW it goes against God's written Word, thank you!
Davy
Well-Known Member
They believe they will be raptured PRIOR to the "great tribulation" THAT JESUS MENTIONED IN MATTHEW 24:21...
"Pre-Tribulation—(Pre 70th-week of Daniel) The Rapture will take place before the Tribulation spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:21, and by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53."
That is from Is a Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?
What Jesus actually said:
Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
They just confuse... themselves with the word 'tribulation' calling the whole 7 years the tribulation, but they SPECIFICALLY claim the rapture happens just PRIOR to the "great tribulation" that Jesus mentioned, WHICH IS WHAT I POINTED TO!
No, the pre-trib rapture proponents themselves don't say that specifically just prior to the great tribulation. You are mis-stating what they believe.
The pre-trib view maintains - not just prior to the great tribulation - but prior to the 70th week beginning. And they believe that the rapture could possibly take place years before the 70th week begins.
The point of disproof will be if the 70th week begins - and the rapture has not taken place - then the pre-trib view will have been proven to be incorrect.
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