Under a curse

[Pisteuo]

there is a passage about acting only out of strong conviction that i am not able to put my finger directly on at the moment, but "heart, mind, and gut" conviction seems to be a goal to be sought there.

Also, imo it should be recognized that a sin for me may not be a sin for you, as one of the links in the top of that search mentions, @ "eating." Iow if you have doubts, don't do it.

We usually seek some absolute standard for sin, see, when there really is none. Now imo one acting in the Spirit will not be violating any of the Decalogue, and i doubt that Stranger is even disagreeing with this?

29Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar

Yes. How can it be a sin of you aren't convicted? Hardly a taught concept. Possibly because of the named sins in the book.

 

[Wild Olive]

Where I see the line drawn between law and works..is firstly Romans 7 and 8. Then from Galatians 4:21
"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
Here we have Sarah and Hagar..and their sons Ishmael and Isaac...one the flesh works, one of the Spirit.

Dead works are deceitful. The New Testament speaks about dead works in Hebrews 6:1. It says that we should repent from dead works. In the Old Testament there is no such thing as dead works....there are either have good works or bad works; there is only good and evil.
But in the New Testament we have good works, evil works, and dead works. Good works are works that please God; evil works are works which are mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21, also known as the works of the flesh. So dead works ....Dead works are works that appear good but spring from a wrong motivation done for the wrong reason. ( not for loves sake, but for our effort in trying to impress God or man.)

A good illustration is tithing. Why is there no commandment to tithe in the New Covenant? Because, in the Old Testament, the amount, quantity they gave to God was important. In the New Testament the quality of our giving is what is more important -It's not how much we give, but how we give!!
In the Old Testament, it was a question of how much you gave. If you didn't give 10% you disobeyed.
When we come into the New Covenant, we read in 2 Corinthians 9:7 that the Lord is interested in us giving with joy. LOVE motivation. It all about the motivation and the why of what we do.

That is the best I can do...
"I" understand what I mean, you may not.
Just pray and ask the Lord to show you these things...He is the best Teacher

Thanks so much for your reply. I reviewed Hebrews and in the context this was what is defined as dead works.
"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment."

The way I understand this passage is they (the church) are not maturing in the word yet continuing of laying on of hands and repentace. The elementary principles of the faith instead of growing in truth. So dead works would be works that have already been done in order to bring one into the faith. What I imagine and I am really not trying to offend is an altar call and the same folks keep coming up in order to be saved instead of growing in truth. Or those of us, me included, confessing but not truly repenting(turning) from the same sin over and over that Jesus has freed us from.

Tithing was established in order to care for the Levites who belonged to God they were His inherantance and that is why He established tithe. Giving to the needy is what we are commanded to do through Messiah. If you belong to a church that uses tithe to care for the needy that is very honerable however many pastors and churches I have witnessed have used it to enrich themselves stealing from the weary and brokenhearted in order to purchase fancy homes and private jets. I know it's not all churches but it is heartbreaking never the less.

As for Galatians, I am unsure I understand that book I have read it over 20 times comparing it to the scriptures I the Tenakh, along with Paul's other writings. On one hand I do like many of Paul's writings however he seems to contradict himself when he speaks about God's law. For me the jury is still out on Paul perhaps I just do not understand it seems like the passages he pulls from the Tenakh do not make sense when lined up with the context of what he wrote. I also do not like how boast full he is against the other deciples and how he contradicts his story in his other books. The largest question I have about Paul is why did all of the churches of Asia turn from him and they were commended for doing so in the book of Revelation? Idk like I said jury is still out, I need to do some more testing .

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes. How can it be a sin of you aren't convicted?

hmm, a seared conscience might not be convictd, i guess. But i meant "conviction" kind of in the other sense here, not the legal sense

 

[Wild Olive]

there is a passage about acting only out of strong conviction that i am not able to put my finger directly on at the moment, but "heart, mind, and gut" conviction seems to be a goal to be sought there.

Also, imo it should be recognized that a sin for me may not be a sin for you, as one of the links in the top of that search mentions, @ "eating." Iow if you have doubts, don't do it.

We usually seek some absolute standard for sin, see, when there really is none. Now imo one acting in the Spirit will not be violating any of the Decalogue, and i doubt that Stranger is even disagreeing with this?

29Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar

Thank you for your post,
I belive that sin is defined by 1:John 3:4 as lawlessness or transgression from God's law. I am learning to do the law the best I can because I believe it pleases God for His children to delight in His ways. I think we all talk about God catering to us and loving us but how do we love God? We keep His commandments and His commandments are not burdonsome. I believe this is how we are to grow in faith by yearing and doing what pleases God and turning from those things that do not please Him. We are able to do this because He sent His Son to pay the price for our sin and now we walk as He walked which is in obidience to the Father. I have been called a legalist a judizer and a Pharisee for this idology but in Matthew 5 our Messiah said if we keep and do the law and the prophets and teach others we will be great in the Kingdom.
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Thanks for allowing me to share

 

[Wild Olive]

amen.
Mat 6:33　 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
This act (if you will) shows where our faith is. It's seeking Him and His will alone and not the pleasing of Him through our own righteousness or acts of obedience. The keeping of His commandments cannot be done without Him anyway. It's a burden you will not be able to bear comfortably...ever. People believe it is good to try to do good on their own hoping God will take notice. This approach will lead you to worshiping yourself if the devil has his way. You will stop believing you are a sinner and had anything to do with putting Jesus on the cross. Instead of following the One who forgives your sins and leads you to doing what you set out to do to begin with. We have sinned and come up short. Then there's Jesus, and now we are clean and white as snow. No other way under our own power. And I kicked against the pricks myself for far too long doing things my way. Do I stumble? Only when I try things my way instead of following Him. So yes, a lot regrettably.

And the good Samaritan comes to mind here for some reason. Doing good apart from Jesus I guess. But I'm speaking of the seeker who wants to please God by trying to yoke themselves with a load no one but Jesus could handle.

Thanks for your post, I agree we are not justified by our own deeds, however once we are justified (saved) we are to walk according to God's will. And yes the spirit will guide us the spirit and the Word. We must test to find ourselves approved. Unfortunately we do not get to be without temptation once we are saved, we must endure till the end, run the race, overcome. That is our part, it's a Covenant we have our part as well and that is to become a deciples and it's not easy. It's the free gift that costs us everything

 

[Stranger]

Wild Olive

Concerning your definition of sin in (1 John 3:4), that is sin under the law. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgession of the law."

But under the New Covenant, sin is defined as anything not done in faith. "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Rom. 14:23)

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

I belive that sin is defined by 1:John 3:4 as lawlessness or transgression from God's law. I am learning to do the law the best I can because I believe it pleases God for His children to delight in His ways. I think we all talk about God catering to us and loving us but how do we love God? We keep His commandments and His commandments are not burdonsome. I believe this is how we are to grow in faith by yearing and doing what pleases God and turning from those things that do not please Him.

we eat and wipe our mouths, and say we have done nothing wrong

to restate Stranger's post OT

 

[H. Richard]

Why is it that most will not accept the fact that Jesus shed blood atoned (paid) for all the sins of those in this world, past, present and future.

Isa 53:5-6
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
NKJV

Rom 5:9-11
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
NKJV

Eph 1:7
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
NKJV

Col 1:14
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
NKJV

 

[Helen]

Why is it that most will not accept the fact that Jesus shed blood atoned (paid) for all the sins of those in this world, past, present and future.

I agree....but....I think the answer is 'we' have had our spiritual eyes opened to the truth of it..It didn't come to me in a moment.
I was stuck in legalism for a long time....seeing beyond that's is a work of The Spirit.
So I don't think they are choosing not to 'accept' , it is just a case that they 'cannot see it ....yet.' Like at one time, we couldn't.
When we have been on this Walk as long as many of us have been....we do tend to forget the long, patient , dealings of the Lord with us!!
Even Peter took a while to come out of the old into the new...for a while he dragged 'the old' along with him...and tried to "live in the mixture"...
I so remember my own confused years of trying to keep both of them....it doesn't work....God hate a mixture as He says in the O T.
Just saying.....H

 

[bbyrd009]

Why is it that most will not accept the fact that Jesus shed blood atoned (paid) for all the sins of those in this world, past, present and future.

because that pov at least seems to ignore that unrepented sin is not forgiven, and when you do not address the subject after repeated attempts it becomes obvious what you really mean; that a Son of Man may die for your unrequited sins, which is not true.

you must forgive, if you want to be forgiven,
you must rebound and go 180 degrees the other direction if you hope to be forgiven, offering to make it right with the offended party, and etc
i could list like 20 vv in this vein if you like. 50. 100.

 

[Helen]

because that pov at least seems to ignore that unrepented sin is not forgiven, and when you do not address the subject after repeated attempts it becomes obvious what you really mean; that a Son of Man may die for your unrequited sins, which is not true.

you must forgive, if you want to be forgiven,
you must rebound and go 180 degrees the other direction if you hope to be forgiven, offering to make it right with the offended party, and etc
i could list like 20 vv in this vein if you like. 50. 100.

For the first time I think I am not totally with you on this one.
Forgiven is forgiven.
I DO agree with walking what we believe. And not taking grace as an occasion for the flesh. But once we start down the road of what we need to do..we will fall back into works.

I have said before, so probably irritatingly so..that there is a difference between 1) -His blood atoning and us being 100% "not guilty".
2) and not making our calling an election sure.
Jesus said - I go to prepare a place for you...etc
It is up to us, as we walk this walk, so that we end up ( figuratively) sitting in the position destined for us in the kingdom.
That is the Race Paul spoke of..not winning salvation, Jesus did that fully, ...but living as 'good and faithful' to the end,.. for the prize of the High Calling in Christ Jesus.
my two cents

 

[Wild Olive]

Why is it that most will not accept the fact that Jesus shed blood atoned (paid) for all the sins of those in this world, past, present and future.

Isa 53:5-6
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
NKJV

Rom 5:9-11
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
NKJV

Eph 1:7
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
NKJV

Col 1:14
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
NKJV

I am not sure he paid for our future sins. I have heard John MacArthur say that I am not sure I agree. Do you have any specific verses you can share about future sins?
Thank you,

 

[bbyrd009]

Forgiven is forgiven.

then you have to rebut "you must forgive if you want to be forgiven" some kind of way right.

and i can even agree with you; it is not that God does not forgive us, just as we would our children. It is that sin separates us from God, as "Who told you that you were naked?" illustrates. God doesn't have the problem, we do. And sin that is not both recognized and rebounded from is going to separate one from God. The "recognized" part is of course quite argued, but talk about a slope.

 

[H. Richard]

I am not sure he paid for our future sins. I have heard John MacArthur say that I am not sure I agree. Do you have any specific verses you can share about future sins?
Thank you,

***
See the scriptures in post 108 and show me where time is limited to the past. Pay attention to the word ALL. Only the religious want to say His blood only pays for past sins. If His blood has not paid for future sins then there is no more sacrifice for sins committed today and therefore salvation is not possible. But the religious think His blood must be applied daily. That is man's idea and is not supported by the scriptures.

 

[bbyrd009]

saying you got saved, like in so and so church on such and such date, or that you believe in Jesus, these are completely irrelevant to God, they mean nothing, if you don't actually do them. At least i think this is still a central plank of Christianity

 

[Wild Olive]

***
See the scriptures in post 108 and show me where time is limited to the past. Pay attention to the word ALL. Only the religious want to say His blood only pays for past sins. If His blood has not paid for future sins then there is no more sacrifice for sins committed today and therefore salvation is not possible. But the religious think His blood must be applied daily. That is man's idea and is not supported by the scriptures.

If future sins were forgiven then all would be saved and no need for repentance. What is the narrow path that we must follow if all we have to say a little prayer and believe in our minds. Faith without works is dead. Faith without works is no faith because if we truly believe our fruit (works) will be that of rightousness. It will not only be a faith of the frontletts of our forehead but a faith with our hands.

Repent means to turn from sin to God. I believe we must overcome, once we utter a prayer and ask Jesus into our hearts that is when we learn how wicked we really are and we must repent -turn overcome. After accepting Messiah's great sacrifice I am not perfect, though the Word and the Spirit I am lead to be an obidient child as part of God's family. The law is a tutor that brings us to Christ. Perhaps you are perfect now but I still have a way to go

 

[Helen]

then you have to rebut "you must forgive if you want to be forgiven" some kind of way right.

and i can even agree with you; it is not that God does not forgive us, just as we would our children. It is that sin separates us from God, as "Who told you that you were naked?" illustrates. God doesn't have the problem, we do. And sin that is not both recognized and rebounded from is going to separate one from God. The "recognized" part is of course quite argued, but talk about a slope.

I do!!
That was before that cross, before we were set free...before our redemption was bought and paid for. Sorry, I know I wont get many takers on that one! You are still as Peter using the mixture of old and new.
And I do not expect you to agree. As I said somewhere, it is something God shows us , or we can't see it.
Does that mean that I do not believe in forgiveness? NO
I believe in walking in LOVE and the two commandments that Jesus left to us to walk in. If I believe and walk in those two..I WILL fulfil all that God requires from us...but not for any legalistic "You must do this or you don't get that." ...but because love always wins. Love is the reflection of Father God. Love will forgive..(or as we were saying in the Forgivness thread which is going...we will "wait on the Lord".. until He makes it happen in our heart and our attitude to the person changes....
but, I know I have different observations than some...I just have to believe and walk in what I believe God has shown me...as also do you.
Thanks for the reply...H

 

[bbyrd009]

well, everyone has their own line there, i guess, but "little children, do not be deceived" is powerful to me

 

[H. Richard]

If future sins were forgiven then all would be saved and no need for repentance. What is the narrow path that we must follow if all we have to say a little prayer and believe in our minds. Faith without works is dead. Faith without works is no faith because if we truly believe our fruit (works) will be that of rightousness. It will not only be a faith of the frontletts of our forehead but a faith with our hands.

Repent means to turn from sin to God. I believe we must overcome, once we utter a prayer and ask Jesus into our hearts that is when we learn how wicked we really are and we must repent -turn overcome. After accepting Messiah's great sacrifice I am not perfect, though the Word and the Spirit I am lead to be an obidient child as part of God's family. The law is a tutor that brings us to Christ. Perhaps you are perfect now but I still have a way to go

***
Satan has blinded people to the truth. All sins were laid on Him and He atoned for them with His own blood. Yes, everyone has a pardon paid for by Jesus. But there are few that believe it, have faith in it, trust in it.

I see you are a fan of James (faith without works is dead). Better read James 1:1 and notice that he was writing to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses. His writing was not to those in the grace church of His body.

If you read James 2;1-26 you see that James is teaching the law to Jews who were under the law. If you read Acts 21:20 you see that James is still teaching the Law of Moses. The book of James is not for those under grace.

But I am sure you will disagree and continue to teach the law through the book Of James. When you do that you are adding man's works to the work of Jesus on the cross and according to Paul you are under a curse.

 

[Wild Olive]

***
Satan has blinded people to the truth. All sins were laid on Him and He atoned for them with His own blood. Yes, everyone has a pardon paid for by Jesus. But there are few that believe it, have faith in it, trust in it.

I see you are a fan of James (faith without works is dead). Better read James 1:1 and notice that he was writing to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses. His writing was not to those in the grace church of His body.

If you read James 2;1-26 you see that James is teaching the law to Jews who were under the law. If you read Acts 21:20 you see that James is still teaching the Law of Moses. The book of James is not for those under grace.

But I am sure you will disagree and continue to teach the law through the book Of James. When you do that you are adding man's works to the work of Jesus on the cross and according to Paul you are under a curse.

Man's works are different from. God's works. Man's works are traditions that God did not establish. Do you believe that honoring our parents is just for the Jewish people? What about coveting and murder is that ok once we are saved? Paul said the law is spiritual and Paul even speaks of following it with His inward man. Paul also states "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be."