UNDER THE LAW!

[Enoch111]

Again, I use a literal translation:

WADR, you use a STUPID translation. Put it away and used the tried and true translation which is accepted by Christians.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, I use a literal translation:

A flawed translation.

 

[HARK!]

HARK!

You have come on board recently and have been quoting from the Concordant Literal Version (CLV) which is based on the corrupted Critical Text (essentially that of Westcott & Hort) rather than the Received Text. Most people are not familiar with this version which was created by A. E. Knoch, who used to be associated with the Jehovah's Witnesses. But this man held some heretical doctrines and it shows in his translation. Indeed there are several critiques about his views (which we can discuss at another time).

His translation of John chapter 1 is totally misleading and confusing. It is not even a true translation since idiomatic English is not used. And the tenses are all wrong.

CONCORDANT LITERAL VERSION (CLV)

CHRIST THE WORD OF GOD IS "IT" INSTEAD OF HIM UNTIL THAT BECOMES UNTENABLE

1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " [Note: "Word" is not capitalized, and "toward" means absolutely nothing]
2 This was in the beginning toward God. [Note: what in the world is "toward"?]
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." [Note: Christ cannot be "it" at this point and then "him" later on, unless the translator wants to confuse the reader]
4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not." [Note: why is light "appearing" when the Greek says "shines" and so does the English? Just trying to be clever? Also the Greek word is "overcame" not "grasping"]
6 There came to be a man, commissioned by God. His name was John." [Note: why is "came to be" better than "was"?]
7 This one came for a testimony, that he should be testifying concerning the light, that all should be believing through it."
8 Not he was the light, but he came that he should be testifying concerning the light. " [Note: who ever says in English "not he was the light"?]
9 It was the true light - which is enlightening every man - coming into the world. [Note: Christ cannot be "it" in this verse and "He" in the next verse. which shows the stupidity of this translation]
10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through Him, and the world knew Him not." [Note: now he switches to "He" and "Him"]
11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."
12 Yet whoever obtained Him, to them He gives the right to become children of God, to those who are believing in His name, [Note: "obtained Him" means nothing, when "received Him" is correct]
13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." [Note: Christ is not "an only-begotten" (as though there are others) but THE only or uniquely begotten Son of God]
15 John is testifying concerning Him and has cried, saying, "This was He of Whom I said, 'He Who is coming after me, has come to be in front of me,' for He was first, before me,
16 for of that which fills Him we all obtained, and grace for grace."
17 For the law through Moses was given; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him." [Note: this version is following the CORRUPTED W & H critical text which has "only-begotten God", instead of only begotten Son]

Getting back to Romans 3:19, it is grossly misleading, and does not even come close to what is being said, even in the literal interlinear translation: Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (KJV)

The world does become guilty before God under the Law (not merely subject to the just verdict of God, which is not even a correct translation of the Greek), therefore every mouth is stopped (not barred).

It would appear that you are trying to prove that you have a superior translation here, and therefore your interpretations are superior, but that is not really the case. Stick with the King James Bible.

This isn't the thread for critiquing translations. The CT translations are superior. The verse you provided don't pertain to this discussion. I know that the CLV has flaws; but so do all translations. Now let's get back on topic.

 

[HARK!]

A flawed translation.

Not as flawed as the KJV. Now as I recently demonstrated by going to Stong's KJ and his boys, weren't consistent in their translation when it came to 1John 3:4.

You're translation was demonstrated as being biased. Mow let's embrace the truth and move on. Hopefully we put our faith in YHWH, and not the corruptible men who translate his word.

You're more than welcome to go back to the Greek and the Hebrew if you have any doubts regarding the translations that I present.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The verses you presented aren't speaking of the law of Christ.

The law of Christ is the law that he preached and lived by unto death. It's the law that his Father YHWH wrote down for Moses.

Hi Hark!

I feel closer to those who believe in the LAW of Moses plus Jesus, than those false teachings that started in the Reformation that do not believe we are under any law (thus lawlessness - just believe in Christ as Savior - without obedience as Lord.) After all, Paul said in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

But, my dear friend, there was a reason why Paul said we are not under the "Law." He wasn't speaking of lawlessness, or wickedness, but the written ministry of death, engraved on stone, 2 Corinthians 3:7. So don't discount the scripture that @justbyfaith quoted, Romans 8:2 that said "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death. Do you know what that means? Why does the Spirit free us from the law of sin and death? It is because of Jesus freeing us from SIN.* The Law of Moses was brought in because of transgressions (SIN) UNTIL Jesus, Galatians 3:19. Why? Because *John 3:34-36 shows us that Jesus would free us from sin - the reason for the law in the first place! Romans 8 says Jesus would kill sin in our flesh. That is why we need to be born again of the Spirit. Instead of having the sin nature we were all born with, Jesus gives a brand new nature that has no desire to commit sin, because of the laws of God written on our heart to follow naturally according to our new nature. So what need is there for laws that showed us our sin if we aren't committing sins of lawlessness anymore? How? By the Spirit. Romans 8:9 (Unfortunately, not all "Christians" have been born again, so must justify why they still sin, so have gravitated toward false doctrines about grace.)

Look at 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 in context, and see that the ministry of the Spirit replaced the ministry of death.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

 

[justbyfaith]

This isn't the thread for critiquing translations. The CT translations are superior. The verse you provided don't pertain to this discussion. I know that the CLV has flaws; but so do all translations. Now let's get back on topic.

The CT translations, and the CLV, are inferior.

The kjv is superior to all others; it is even inspired and inerrant.

 

[CharismaticLady]

This isn't the thread for critiquing translations. The CT translations are superior. The verse you provided don't pertain to this discussion. I know that the CLV has flaws; but so do all translations. Now let's get back on topic.

I like the Young's Literal Translation that is based on the Received Text, or Majority Text. My reasoning is I want everything God has for me including ALL of His Word. The translation by Westcott and Hort has whole verses missing and abbreviated texts. Personally, I don't know anything about CT or CLV.

I'm not trying to get into the conversation between you and Enoch111, just you, and letting you know what I like and why.

 

[justbyfaith]

I like the Young's Literal Translation that is based on the Received Text, or Majority Text. My reasoning is I want everything God has for me including ALL of His Word. The translation by Westcott and Hort has whole verses missing and abbreviated texts. Personally, I don't know anything about CT or CLV.

I'm not trying to get into the conversation between you and Enoch111, just you, and letting you know what I like and why.

I think that the YLT is very likely good; although I haven't read it much myself. bc I love the kjv.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP only, not saying that you're right or wrong, but have you consider this, (CLV) 1 Timothy 1:9 being aware of this, that law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane, thrashers of fathers and thrashers of mothers, homicides".

1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"

the Just in your (CLV) Translation is short for justified, or those declared "Righteous", meaning those who are in Christ Jesus. for our Righteousness is found in Christ Jesus. so as 1 Timothy 1:9 clearly states, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man" is clear and correct. for the verse states, "KNOWING THIS", meaning you don't have to go find this out, it is clearly stated for us to "KNOW".

PICJAG.

 

[Truther]

"Under the law"

Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.

It's found 11 times in his writings.

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

==================================================
(CLV) Ro 6:14
For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

Which law?

Paul mentions at least 8 of them in this letter:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

I suppose that if sin is lording over you; then you are under The Law of Sin.

(CLV) Ro 6:15
What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!

Paul is telling us in no uncertain terms that we may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

(CLV) Ro 7:7
What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."

Surely The Law of Sin doesn't prohibit coveting.

The Law of YHWH does.
==================================================
(CLV) 1Co 9:20
And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;


The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.



(CLV) 1Co 9:21
to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

"Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.


(CLV) 1Co 9:22
I became as weak to the weak, that I should be gaining the weak. To all have I become all, that I should undoubtedly be saving some.

Apart from the Judaeans the nations didn't even have the Torah
That said, just a few verses prior in this letter; Paul makes mention of the Torah:

Some misunderstand this passage.Paul was not a lawless crowd pleaser.

(CLV) Ga 1:10
For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ.

Acts 17:22-31 is an example of how Paul would put this behavior into practice.


(CLV) 1Co 9:
9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You shall not muzzle the threshing ox.Not for oxen is the care of God!" 10 Or is He undoubtedly saying it because of us? Because of us, for it was written that the plower ought to be plowing in expectation, and the thresher to partake of his expectation."

HE'S SAYING THAT THE TORAH WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE OF US?


(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


(Continued)

Paul said sinners are under the active Law of God, not the saints.

The active Law(Gen to Mal) was the schoolmaster to lead all of us former sinners to Christ, then and only then, we are no longer under the schoolmaster.

The Law never ended, but it is used to condemn and judge mankind.

That is the exact reason for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for us(free us saints from the Law by a scapegoat).

 

[Truther]

I didn't say that the KJV was an oddball translation.

I said that verse within the KJV is an oddball translation. The KJV wasn't consistent with their translation.

Notice the Strong's info that I provided:

The KJV translates Strong's G458 in the following manner: iniquity (12x), unrighteousness (1x), transgress the law (with G4160) (1x), transgression of the law (1x).

I won't even get into the flaws of the KJV here. That would take this thread way off topic.

You just tried to debunk the KJV with a commentator some 300 years later that was not even a linguist.

Notice what you did(inadvertently).

This is exactly what the modern versions and new modern closet translators are based on .

I hope you noticed what you just did, because I once fell into that trap for a short while....

"The Bible says this, but hey folks, look what our Strongs also says"

 

[HARK!]

You just tried to debunk the KJV with a commentator some 300 years later that was not even a linguist.

Notice what you did(inadvertently).

This is exactly what the modern versions and new modern closet translators are based on .

I hope you noticed what you just did, because I once fell into that trap for a short while....

"The Bible says this, but hey folks, look what our Strongs also says"

When the KJV was written, there were a handful of manuscripts available to them. Now we have thousands of manuscripts and better science.

 

[Truther]

When the KJV was written, there were a handful of manuscripts available to them. Now we have thousands of manuscripts and better science.

What do you mean by science?

Did they invent something?

You bet they did....new meanings to Greek words to fit their narrative.

Just think how much folks will know about ancient Greek another 1000 years from now............

LOL

 

[HARK!]

What do you mean by science?

Did they invent something?

Science isn't invention. It's study.

We have more evidence to study now. Our communication is better. Our chemistry for studying the inks is better. Our science for studying the handwriting is better. These factors can be used to date manuscripts more accurately, which helps to make textual criticism more refined. I've only scratched the surface of how the science has advanced.

 

[Randy Kluth]

My own belief about the Law of God is that it was initiated with men when God made them. His Law was that we operate in His image, and after His likeness. It was His Law that we not pursue our own independent will, but that we operate together with His morality and by His Spirit, so that we are never separated from fellowship with Him.

Man, of course, took a bite of the apple, and compromised God's wish. We then sought our own will, as well as God's will. It was enough to have us banished from God's holy presence, with the hope that some would be forgiven and restored.

God gave the Law in the hope that an entire nation would serve Him. But He also knew that in the process of bringing this nation into conformity with His will, there would be lots of resistance from men who opted to go their own way.

The Law of Moses was a temporary means of keeping sinful men in fellowship with God in Israel, until God could separate out those men who wanted to live for Him. This Law was only temporary until Christ came to complete redemption for all time. When Christ died and rose again, there was no longer any need for the Law of Moses. Now, the Law of God was resident exclusively in the Son of God, who gives us His Spirit as a witness to the fact our redemption is complete when we choose to serve Him

The Law of Sin is just a principle of the sin nature dwelling within us, as long as we remain mortal. We do have God's Law with us, from Christ, so that we may obey him. But we always have a sin tendency, and the uncleanness of our carnal minds, which we must always fight.

Oh, and by the way, Christ came to expand access to his redemption to all nations, and not just Israel. Israel was designed only to be the model nation, to pave the way to make God's redemption known and accessible to all men in all nations.

 

[Truther]

Science isn't invention. It's study.

We have more evidence to study now. Our communication is better. Our chemistry for studying the inks is better. Our science for studying the handwriting is better. These factors can be used to date manuscripts more accurately, which helps to make textual criticism more refined. I've only scratched the surface of how the science has advanced.

Really?

So, making up definitions of ancient words or for let's even say hieroglyphics is science?

Or, folks with PHD's make up vague assertions of what they think it is?

Science is repeatable and demonstrate-able, ya know.

 

[mailmandan]

 

[justbyfaith]

The Law of Moses was a temporary means of keeping sinful men in fellowship with God in Israel,

Disagree. The law has always been a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ by revealing sin to the unbeliever (Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20).

The Law of Sin is just a principle of the sin nature dwelling within us, as long as we remain mortal.

Agree.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed (attested to) by the law and the prophets;

Rom 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I agree that keeping the law unto salvation is a theological fail.

However, the inverse of that, being saved unto the keeping of the law, is not so much of a fail.

Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4); and I can think of two places in the word where we are exhorted not to sin (1 Corinthians 15:34, Ephesians 4:26). And also, it is written, however you want to take these words, that the one who is born of God doth not commit sin and also cannot sin (1 John 3:9).

So then, while our salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things have passed away, behold, all things are become new: (2 Corinthians 5:17) which means that we are raised with Christ into a new life wherein we are set free from the power of sin; which, again, is the transgression of the law.

Therefore, if we do not sin, will we not be keepers of the law?

Thus our law-keeping, while it does not save us, is the only real evidence (before man and us) that we are truly born again.

I qualify this by saying that in Christ, we are not bound by the letter of the law but will be obedient, because we have the Spirit and walk according to the Spirit, to the spirit of what is written.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Disagree. The law has always been a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ by revealing sin to the unbeliever (Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20).
Agree.

I wasn't saying that the Law doesn't still have some usefulness as a teaching tool. I'm just saying that it is no longer a functioning system--a presently active system. It teaches us by way of example. It was active in the past and shows us, as a historical tool, what God is like through the system He once used.

Not only that, but the moral values present in those laws are still active today under an entirely new covenant system--the covenant of Christ. Often we say that we're still under the 10 Commandments. Well, we're not under the 10 Commandments as part of the Old Covenant of Law. But we are under the same God who gave us the 10 Commandments. We are still to live in accord with the image and likeness of God. We are still to follow after love, not murdering, not committing adultery, not stealing, not coveting.

But we now live by the new spiritual nature that Christ has given us, molded in his own likeness, so that we no longer have to find a way of dealing with our sins redemptively. The new nature we have received is ready made and turn key. All we have to do is live in it, and recognize what God has always been like, and we will know we're fulfilling all of God's Law.