UNDER THE LAW!

[Randy Kluth]

If you don't want to study the verses I have referenced, I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree.

But if you're willing to discuss them, I'm open to that also.

I've probably studied these verses more than you have. I've shown my willingness to discuss. You have shown little willingness to consider my pov.

For example, you referred to James' statement about faith and works as "justification before men," and not "justification before God." That was proven untrue by the fact James was explicitly referring to *salvation,* which is justification before God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

...which was not to the Gentiles anyway!!

I'm fully aware, Helen.

We live by faith in and through the Son of God. The Blood is our covering and protection from the Enemy.

I'm fully aware of this too. It makes me wonder what your point is?

The law has nothing to do with us...but as @justbyfaith has said...
We automatically keep His law because we keep the two commandments He left us.."Love God, Love Neighbour " ...

We "automatically keep the two commandments?" Why then would we be asked to keep it if it was "automatic?"

LOVE keeps and fulfills God Law automatically , it is not work, it is our new nature in Christ. It is His reflection in us and out of us.

It depends on how you use the word "work." Words mean what they mean *in context.* There is no one singular, exclusive use of the word "work."

The works of the Law could not justify for eternity, could not provide eternal salvation. However, the works of the Law did provide a temporary form of righteousness, dependent on Christ coming and covering *all sin.*

The work of Christ on the cross covered all sin forever. By contrast, the Law only covered sins on a temporary basis, never fully able to exterminate sin or eradicate the sin nature in man.

The works of Christians is the evidence of our faith in Christ. By believing in him, and by obeying his commandments, we produce works that evidence our covenant with him. And in this new covenant we have eternal life.

 

[Helen]

We "automatically keep the two commandments?" Why then would we be asked to keep it if it was "automatic?"

Maybe I expressed it badly. Sorry.

If we walk in Love, as He told us to, we automatically keep His commandments .

 

[Randy Kluth]

Maybe I expressed it badly. Sorry.

If we walk in Love, as He told us to, we automatically keep His commandments .

Don't worry, Helen. You have a good spirit. That's the big thing.

Incidentally, keeping a good spirit and walking in love is what we are commanded to do. You aren't "automatically" doing it. You are choosing to do it, ie you are choosing to live by the good nature Christ put in you.

He has enabled you to do it and to be it by virtue of your having received him into your heart. That makes it easy, but it does not make it automatic.

There are times when it is not so easy. But Jesus said his burden is "light." That means we are able to do it because he has "overcome the world."

 

[justbyfaith]

James 2.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

This verse is qualified by Romans 4:2. Abraham's works justified him, just not before God. Before man. Look up the verse, please.

Matt 5.17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

There will be no additions or subtractions to the law of God, is what this is saying. However, Paul wrote that we were married to the law but that either we or the law died, or both; so that we are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law.

In this sense the law has been abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16 (kjv)); in that its enmity has been slain. It no longer condemns the one who has placed their faith in Christ' shed blood on the Cross.

Jesus also fulfilled the law in that through faith in Him, we receive the Spirit (Galatians 3:14). And through the Spirit, we have the love of God (Romans 5:5). This love is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). But do you see the progression? We do not begin with attempting to keep a set of do's and don'ts; but with faith in Christ.

Rom 2.13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You have to take this verse in context of the entire epistle. From Romans 2:13, Paul goes from there down a line of reasoning that leads him to the conclusion found in Romans 3:28:

Rom 3:28, Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

You can read Romans 2:14-Romans 3:27 on your own time to see what that line of reasoning is.
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But *obedience* to the Law was required despite the fact the works of the Law could not bring final justification.

It could not bring about justification period (see Galatians 2:16).

We are still under obligation to obey Christ.

We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to it. Obeying Christ is not the same as obeying a set of do's and don'ts. It is obedience to the promptings of His Spirit.

Consider this:

Gal 5:1, Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2, Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3, For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4, Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Those who seek to be justified through law-keeping are fallen from grace and Christ is of no effect to them; Christ shall profit them nothing.

The Law required obedience, but its "works" could not justify us on a permanent basis.

They couldn't justify us on any basis (Galatians 2:16).

Matt 5.20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So, this is speaking of the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Gal 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Phl 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Your comments are insulting, and insinuate that I depend on the works of the Law to justify myself. I've *never* said that!

You have said that you believe that the law imparts spiritual life for OT believers. If it can do that for OT believers, then it can do that for NT believers. But this concept is foreign to NT doctrine.

I believe *only* Christ's works can justify us in the eternal sphere of things.

What do you mean by Christ's works? if you mean by that, things that we do in the power that Christ gives us, then I would have to disagree with you. But Christ's works, and only Christ's works, that is, His death on the Cross on our behalf, can justify us in any sense of the word justify.

The Law did provide righteousness when Israel obeyed it,

Gal 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Inasmuch as the Law and its obedience was part of a covenant with God, it did provide a transient form of "spiritual life."

Gal 3:21, Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

For example, you referred to James' statement about faith and works as "justification before men," and not "justification before God."

Yes, our works do not provide glory (i.e. justification) before God, Romans 4:2. Only before man do our works justify us. Before God, we are justified by faith alone.

Here:

Rom 4:1, What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2, For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3, For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

We "automatically keep the two commandments?" Why then would we be asked to keep it if it was "automatic?"

Because the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. When we see that we cannot be obedient to the command to love, we are able to come to the end of ourselves and turn to Christ in order that He may impart the love that is needed.

However, the works of the Law did provide a temporary form of righteousness,

Again,

Gal 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The righteousness which is of the law is faulty at best:

Phl 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The work of Christ on the cross covered all sin forever. By contrast, the Law only covered sins on a temporary basis,

And you are speaking here only of the ceremonial law and not the moral law.

never fully able to exterminate sin or eradicate the sin nature in man.

However this does apply to the moral law.

Incidentally, keeping a good spirit and walking in love is what we are commanded to do. You aren't "automatically" doing it.

I beg to differ.

Eze 36:25, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Phl 2:13, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

You are choosing to do it, ie you are choosing to live by the good nature Christ put in you.

There is a sense in which He doesn't force us to obey Him. But those who are born again of the Holy Spirit are inclined to obey Him because that is what is in our new nature.

He has enabled you to do it and to be it by virtue of your having received him into your heart. That makes it easy, but it does not make it automatic.

If anyone is born again, it is in their very nature to obey Him. Obedience flows from the new nature; and I would say that if you have to strain obedience, you ought to reexamine whether you are really born again or not.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Because the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. When we see that we cannot be obedient to the command to love, we are able to come to the end of ourselves and turn to Christ in order that He may impart the love that is needed.

The commandments Jesus gave us was not just the Law but *his own commandments!*

And you are speaking here only of the ceremonial law and not the moral law.
However this does apply to the moral law.

Where are you getting this division between the "ceremonial law" and the "moral law?" Both elements existed in the Law.

There is a sense in which He doesn't force us to obey Him. But those who are born again of the Holy Spirit are inclined to obey Him because that is what is in our new nature.

We agree on that. We have been given the impetus. But there is still a battle to be fought and won.

If anyone is born again, it is in their very nature to obey Him. Obedience flows from the new nature; and I would say that if you have to strain obedience, you ought to reexamine whether you are really born again or not.

Paul told us to "fight the good fight." A fight is not always easy!

 

[justbyfaith]

The commandments Jesus gave us was not just the Law but *his own commandments!*

Anything set forth as a moral standard in the OT or NT qualifies as the law; which declares all of mankind to be sinners in need of a Saviour.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This verse is qualified by Romans 4:2. Abraham's works justified him, just not before God. Before man. Look up the verse, please.

No, the verse is not qualified by another unrelated passage. You have to take the verse in its immediate context. You may compare Scripture with Scripture, but each Scripture passage stands on its own. Otherwise, you are just trying to divert away from Scripture.

James 2.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

This is true all by itself.

There will be no additions or subtractions to the law of God, is what this is saying. However, Paul wrote that we were married to the law but that either we or the law died, or both; so that we are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law.

I know what this is saying! I'm *not* saying we are still living under the Law as a covenant.

Matt 5.17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The point is, the Law was something Jesus believed in for its time, and saw himself as its logical end. So for you to say the Law had nothing in itself to give, but that it only pointed to Jesus is disingenuous. The Law, all by itself, was a valid covenant system, replete with God's good pleasure for those who adhered to it. As such, it provided a spiritual life, despite the fact it could not finish the race as far as justification.

You have to take this verse in context of the entire epistle. From Romans 2:13, Paul goes from there down a line of reasoning that leads him to the conclusion found in Romans 3:28:

Rom 3:28, Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 2.13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You are diverting. It does not require the entire book to understand what is being said here. It is clearly stating that obedience to the Law brings righteousness, and therefore peace with God. That is, it enables a spiritual life under cover of temporal rituals of redemption.

We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to it. Obeying Christ is not the same as obeying a set of do's and don'ts. It is obedience to the promptings of His Spirit.

Following commandments, or do's and don't's, is not by default a matter of living by the flesh! Do you think Jesus followed the carnal flesh when he obeyed his Father in heaven? He was sinless, brother! And even we, who are sinners, can obey God's word without being "in the flesh." In the same way, those under the Law could obey the Law of God without being "in the flesh."

Those who seek to be justified through law-keepingb are fallen from grace and Christ is of no effect to them; Christ shall profit them nothing.

You're like a sounding gong! I've told you umpteen times that following the Law did not justify for eternity! Why do you keep reiterating what we both agree on? Following the Law was *not* an attempt at eternal justification. It was a temporary reprieve until Christ could bring justification.

So, this is speaking of the righteousness which is of God by faith.

As I told you, the righteousness that is by faith in Christ is different than the righteousness of the Law. Both were accepted of God, the Law as a temporary measure, and faith in Christ as the ultimate goal.

Both forms of righteousness required adherence to the commandments of God as a choice to embrace God's form of redemption. We obey Christ's word in order to accept his exclusive work of redemption for us. In fact, God's commandment is that we believe in His Son. And so, our salvation begins with a choice to obey God's word.

You have said that you believe that the law imparts spiritual life for OT believers. If it can do that for OT believers, then it can do that for NT believers. But this concept is foreign to NT doctrine.

A covenant relationship with God is, by definition, an impartation of spiritual life from heaven. The presence of God's glory in His temple is ample illustration of this. Having a spiritual life is *not* having eternal life. In Christ, our spiritual life becomes eternal life.

What do you mean by Christ's works? if you mean by that, things that we do in the power that Christ gives us, then I would have to disagree with you. But Christ's works, and only Christ's works, can justify us in any sense of the word justify.

Christ's works was the cross, whereby he eternally redeemed us. Nobody but Christ could do that. Our job is to obey Christ's commandments. One mandate was to preach the gospel to all nations. Another commandment is to love God supremely, and our brothers in the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, the verse is not qualified by another unrelated passage. You have to take the verse in its immediate context. You may compare Scripture with Scripture, but each Scripture passage stands on its own. Otherwise, you are just trying to divert away from Scripture.

Comparing scripture with scripture is not diverting away from scripture. I told you to compare James 2 to Romans 4:2.

James 2.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

This is true all by itself.

I agree. notice it doesn't say, "Faith cannot save him." but presents it as a question; which is answered in Romans 4:1-8, esp. v. 2.

As such, it provided a spiritual life, despite the fact it could not finish the race as far as justification.

The law cannot impart life according to Galatians 3:21.

You are diverting. It does not require the entire book to understand what is being said here. It is clearly stating that obedience to the Law brings righteousness, and therefore peace with God. That is, it enables a spiritual life under cover of temporal rituals of redemption.

Yet, Romans 3:28 appears to be in direct contradiction to Romans 2:13. How do you account for this, except by the line of reasoning that exists in between?

Following commandments, or do's and don't's, is not by default a matter of living by the flesh! Do you think Jesus followed the carnal flesh when he obeyed his Father in heaven? He was sinless, brother! And even we, who are sinners, can obey God's word without being "in the flesh." In the same way, those under the Law could obey the Law of God without being "in the flesh."

I think that you have misunderstood what I said entirely. There was a sense in which I was agreeing with you, and then moved on to how I disagreed with your statements.

You're like a sounding gong! I've told you umpteen times that following the Law did not justify for eternity! Why do you keep reiterating what we both agree on?

Following the law does not justify at all.

There is no temple in Jerusalem.

But if there were a temple, it seems that you would advocate the sacrificing of bulls and goats as a temporary means of obtaining life from the Lord.

If one could maintain such a thing indefinitely, I can see you teaching that it could even produce eternal or everlasting life.

We obey Christ's word in order to accept his exclusive work of redemption for us.

We obey Christ's word as the result of redemption; not in order to obtain it.

Having a spiritual life is *not* having eternal life.

It is (see John 5:24).

Our job is to obey Christ's commandments.

Not in order to obtain spiritual life. But because we already have it.

And we obtain that life solely through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.

Agree or disagree?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The law cannot impart life according to Galatians 3:21.

The Law could not impart *eternal life.* It could, however, impart blessings and a spiritual relationship with God, referred to as a "covenant with God."

Yet, Romans 3:28 appears to be in direct contradiction to Romans 2:13. How do you account for this, except by the line of reasoning that exists in between?

"Justification" is another of the words that does not have a fixed meaning, having to rely on context to understand how it is being used. Paul used justification in 2 senses, just as I am here. It can refer to temporary acceptance or to eternal acceptance.

Following the law does not justify at all.

Rom 2. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

If a person is declared righteous by obeying the Law, they are accepted as such by God, or "justified." This is the temporal sense of justification. It is not concerned with eternal salvation, but rather, with having works done under the Law accepted by God for purposes of blessing.

There is no temple in Jerusalem.

But if there were a temple, it seems that you would advocate the sacrificing of bulls and goats as a temporary means of obtaining life from the Lord.

How silly! God did this very thing in the OT era! Are you going to mock God for that? I'm certainly not saying God is still doing that.

We obey Christ's word as the result of redemption; not in order to obtain it.

The 1st thing we do at salvation is obey Christ's word to "get saved!"

And we obtain that life solely through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.
Agree or disagree?

Are you saying that God wasted His time giving Israel a command to offer animal sacrifices, build a temple, and put into effect a priesthood? If not, then you can rest assured that He gave us Jesus as an eternal sacrifice for our sins. God's word commands us to repent in his name, and so find eternal salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Law cannot impart *eternal life.* It can, however, impart blessings and a spiritual relationship with God,

Nope.

For in passing from death into life, one passes from death into everlasting life (John 5:24).

If a person is declared righteous by obeying the Law, they are accepted as such by God, or "justified."

Except that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). No one keeps the law perfectly; but perfection is what the law requires (Matthew 5:48, James 2:10, Galatians 3:10). Therefore no flesh will be justified in His sight through keeping the law (Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16).

Following the law does not justify at all.

There is no temple in Jerusalem.

But if there were a temple, it seems that you would advocate the sacrificing of bulls and goats as a temporary means of obtaining life from the Lord.

If one could maintain such a thing indefinitely, I can see you teaching that it could even produce eternal or everlasting life.

How silly! God did this very thing in the OT era! Are you going to mock God for that? I'm certainly not saying God is still doing that.

Heb 10:1, For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2, For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3, But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The 1st thing we do at salvation is obey Christ's word to "get saved!"

We call on the name of the Lord for salvation in response to the promise He gives in Romans 10:13. This is not in obedience to any command.

Are you saying that God wasted His time giving Israel a command to offer animal sacrifices, build a temple, and put into effect a priesthood? If not, then you can rest assured that He gave us Jesus as an eternal sacrifice for our sins. God's word commands us to repent in his name, and so find eternal salvation.

And we obtain life solely through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.

Agree or disagree?

___I AGREE. Reason:____________________________________________

___I DISAGREE. Reason:_________________________________________

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you saying that God wasted His time giving Israel a command to offer animal sacrifices, build a temple, and put into effect a priesthood? If not, then you can rest assured that He gave us Jesus as an eternal sacrifice for our sins. God's word commands us to repent in his name, and so find eternal salvation.

The Lord gave the Old Covenant primarily to show Israel that they could never measure up to the Lord's standard of righteousness. Throughout the Old Testament is an account of one failure after another on the part of Israel.

The Old Testament's teaching is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord. Plain and simple.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Truman]