UNDER THE LAW!

[justbyfaith]

Commentary on Romans.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I can quote scriptures to show that you don't want a law-righteousness because it cannot save you.

Don't bother. We've already been down this road. We *both agree* that the Law could not provide *eternal righteousness,* or *eternal salvation.* It was a temporary provision, and it did provide, in the interim, spiritual life and provisions for getting through this life in a relationship with God.

If righteousness could come by the law then Christ is dead and in vain (Galatians 2:21). It is also true that Galatians 3:21 tells us that the law has no capability of imparting spiritual life.

That is not what Paul said. He said the Law could not impart life. He was speaking, in context, not of generic spiritual life, but of the more specific eternal life. In the same way, he was not just speaking of generic faith, but more, of the specific faith in Jesus Christ.

So you are confusing two very different things, generic faith and generic spiritual life with eternal salvation. The fact you think spiritual life existed in the OT only by looking forward to Jesus, with no regard for God's Law, is absurd.

There is a condition to having spiritual life from God, and it involves obedience to God's word. Spiritual life comes when we live in covenant with God. Prior to Christ's resurrection, the only covenant Israel had was through the Law of Moses. So it did indeed produce spiritual life, even though it wasn't yet eternal life.

But not the other way around. The word of the Lord does not consist of only the law. It also consists of the doctrines of grace.

I never said otherwise. My point was that the Law of Moses was God's word.

I don't think that you are even born again of the Holy Spirit, if you think that you can obtain spiritual life by keeping a set of do's and don'ts. Jesus is the only way in to salvation. Obeying the word of the Lord is the result of believing in Christ. Before that, any attempt to obey will come up short and will not avail to save anyone (or impart spiritual life to a man).

So you think God never asked Israel to keep the Law? What exactly do you think the Law was for--just to look forward to the coming of Jesus?

No; for Paul in his writings is exalting faith in Christ and making sure that you don't get mixed up and think that you can in any way obtain salvation through law-keeping. Because these things are in competition with each other as means of salvation. One of them works; the other one will fail every single time.

There is law-keeping in the Gospel too, in case you haven't noticed. The Apostle John said we are to keep the commandments of Christ. You seem to have an antinomian gospel.

No; for in Galatians 3:21, spiritual life is in view; the kind of life spoken of in John 5:24, wherein we pass from death into life the moment we believe; and this is everlasting life as well as spiritual life. I say to you truly that everlasting life always comes from spiritual life and that spiritual life is the beginning of everlasting life: and that this does not come through keeping the law.

No, spiritual life was *not* the beginning of eternal life. Spiritual life existed under the Law, and eternal life did not immediately emerge from it.

Heb 6.4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

These people had experienced spiritual life. And yet for them it did *not* lead to eternal life.

Regardless, saints in the OT era had a covenant relationship with God, which means they enjoyed a measure of spiritual life with God. It just didn't lead, immediately, to eternal life.

Go ahead and read the context (again, the passage is Galatians 3:10-13). But I think you're starting to get the picture. The only way to be redeemed is to be forgiven of all your sins through the shed blood of Christ; and this does not come about through keeping a set of do's and don'ts; but only by faith.

It came by Jesus doing the do's and don't's! It was *his works* that saved us, and not our own. We still have to obey the commandments of Christ to please God. But it was not our works that saved us--rather, our choice to obey God is a form of our choice to accept Christ himself. To obey Christ is to choose to accept him.

Works under the Law did not save anybody either. But they were necessary to establish a covenant relationship with God, which is the same as a spiritual life. The object is not to earn our own salvation, but rather, to *choose* salvation. It is in choosing to obey God that we choose to embrace Him as our Savior.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

We can only become mature in studying the law if we already have faith in Christ. Some Israelites in those days did look forward to faith in Christ; but the majority didn't. Those who did were prophets; those who didn't persecuted the prophets (see Luke 11:49-51).

There were more than "prophets" who looked forward to "final salvation," which is the equivalent to looking forward to Christ and to his salvation.

Again, look at how Paul interprets this scripture:

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul is talking about the need to be consistent in obedience to God's word. He's not saying that believers cannot obey God's laws. So the curse has to do with men who fall back from obeying God.

The curse came to Israel when they sinned to the extent they proved the nation to be beyond repentance. In that case, salvation had to come from Messiah.

The Law itself was not a curse. Rather, it was Israel's inability to eradicate sin under the Law that brought about the curse.

And so, faith had to be placed in Messiah, whose works could eradicate the guilt of sin, enabling a resurrection to immortality.

 

[justbyfaith]

Don't bother. We've already been down this road. We *both agree* that the Law could not provide *eternal righteousness,* or *eternal salvation.* It was a temporary provision, and it did provide, in the interim, spiritual life and provisions for getting through this life in a relationship with God.

The law does not provide a relationship with God. Keeping it is the result of a relationship with God; but one does not enter into a relationship with God by any form of law-keeping.

That is not what Paul said. He said the Law could not impart life. He was speaking, in context, not of generic spiritual life, but of the more specific eternal life.

Spiritual life is eternal life according to John 5:24. We pass from death into life the moment we believe; and this life is both everlasting and spiritual.

So you are confusing two very different things, generic faith and generic spiritual life with eternal salvation.

It is not confusion but truth. See John 5:24. They are one and the same.

The fact you think spiritual life existed in the OT only by looking forward to Jesus, with no regard for God's Law, is absurd.

The fact that you think that in the OT they could obtain spiritual life by keeping the law indicates to me that you think the same might be true today; and because of this I fear for your salvation and for the salvation of those who hear you.

There is a condition to having spiritual life from God, and it involves obedience to God's word.

Obedience to God's word does not produce spiritual life. Faith does (Galatians 3:14). We receive the Holy Spirit through faith; and the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts as the result (Romans 5:5). And this produces obedience to God's word (1 John 3:17-18, Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6). But obedience to God's word is not the means by which we obtain spiritual life; rather it is the result of having spiritual life; which comes through faith in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Spiritual life comes when we live in covenant with God. Prior to Christ's resurrection, the only covenant Israel had was through the Law of Moses. So it did indeed produce spiritual life, even though it wasn't yet eternal life.

No, because when one enters into spiritual life they enter into eternal life (John 5:24). And also, the law doesn't have the power to impart life (Galatians 3:21).

So you think God never asked Israel to keep the Law? What exactly do you think the Law was for--just to look forward to the coming of Jesus?

The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24; Psalms 19:7 (kjv)). And it does this by showing men that they are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20).

There is law-keeping in the Gospel too, in case you haven't noticed. The Apostle John said we are to keep the commandments of Christ. You seem to have an antinomian gospel.

I believe it was Martin D. Loyd Jones who said that if you are never accused of being antinomian in your theology, you aren't preaching the true gospel. So thank you.

But no, I hold that keeping the commandments are the result of a living faith in Christ; not that we enter into faith in Christ by keeping the commandments. We enter into keeping the commandments because we already have a relationship with God throught faith in Christ. If we try to keep the commandments in order to have a relationship with God, something is amiss.

Because our reckoning is not according to grace but according to debt (Romans 4:4).

No, spiritual life was *not* the beginning of eternal life. Spiritual life existed under the Law, and eternal life did not immediately emerge from it.

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes so that you can see it.

We still have to obey the commandments of Christ to please God. But it was not our works that saved us--rather, our choice to obey God is a form of our choice to accept Christ himself. To obey Christ is to choose to accept him.

No, we receive Christ and we obey Him as the result. Receiving Him is a matter of surrender and is an act of faith. Subsequently, obedience to the commands of Christ spring forth because of faith. However, we don't come to faith in Christ through keeping His commands. I believe that you have the cart before the horse.

Paul is talking about the need to be consistent in obedience to God's word. He's not saying that believers cannot obey God's laws.

Those who are sticklers for the law are most often the same ones who don't keep it, according to Galatians 6:13.

Gal 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

You should also consider the following:

Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God;

So the curse has to do with men who fall back from obeying God.

Which is everyone according to what I have shown above.

The Law itself was not a curse. Rather, it was Israel's inability to eradicate sin under the Law that brought about the curse.

Now you're getting it.

What this means is that Israel could not have a relationship with God through keeping the law; because the law requires perfection and not one of us is perfect. Israel couldn't eradicate sin and that means that they continued to be violators of the law through and through.

The only way to have spiritual life is to be forgiven of all of your sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14); who is the only spiritual life there is.

The law stands as an alternate method of being saved that will never cut it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The law does not provide a relationship with God. Keeping it is the result of a relationship with God; but one does not enter into a relationship with God by any form of law-keeping.

No, the Law is a covenant. You enter into a relationship with God by meeting the conditions of the covenant. Of course, this is now an out-dated covenant.

Meeting the conditions of the covenant is, in fact, doing what the Law requires. It is *keeping the Law.* What relationship with God would exist *prior to* entering into this covenant? The covenant of Law was, in fact, God's way of making Himself better known to Israel. That is, prior to entering into the covenant of the Law, Israel's relationship with God was weak. The covenant of Law made their relationship with God closer.

Exo 4.22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me." '

So yes, Israel initially had a relationship with God. But no, this relationship with God did deepen when Israel entered into the covenant of Law through which they learned to "serve" God!

Spiritual life is eternal life according to John 5:24. We pass from death into life the moment we believe; and this life is both everlasting and spiritual.

Eternal life is a form of spiritual life. But not all spiritual life is eternal. I showed you that in Heb 6.

It is not confusion but truth. See John 5:24. They are one and the same.

The fact that you think that in the OT they could obtain spiritual life by keeping the law indicates to me that you think the same might be true today...

Spiritual life is *always* obtained by keeping the word of God. It is the basis for a relationship with God. The covenant relationship is described in some places as a marriage between God and man. The benefits received from God in this covenant relationship involves divine protection and divine blessings. And the ability to please and to serve God is exactly what we mean by "spiritual life."

Obedience to God's word does not produce spiritual life. Faith does (Galatians 3:14).

You cannot show faith without obeying God's word.

James 2.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

I believe it was Martin D. Loyd Jones who said that if you are never accused of being antinomian in your theology, you aren't preaching the true gospel. So thank you.

You have just placed yourself among the heretics. I now believe this is why we're even having this long drawn-out conversation. You separate the works Christ would have us to do from your faith. That's wrong.

What this means is that Israel could not have a relationship with God through keeping the law; because the law requires perfection and not one of us is perfect. Israel couldn't eradicate sin and that means that they continued to be violators of the law through and through.

Keeping the Law was *never* about being perfect! Once Adam and Eve sinned, there was no going back. The entire human race had become stained and infected by the sin nature.

But God still required Man to live by His Law. It remained the basis of Man's relationship with Him, even though they were cursed to continue sinning, with its accompanying judgment.

The Law offered Israel righteousness, and it also offered a means of mediating the problem of sin and its curse. However, sin was mediated only temporarily, because it required repeated efforts to deal with repeated sins. As I said, sins could be forgiven but the sin nature could not be eradicated--not without a resurrection to a completely new existence.

So God's Law has always been and always will be the basis of relationship between God and Man. It just couldn't bring eternal life to man until the sin problem was finally dealt with. Now that Christ has dealt with sin, we still have to obey the Law of God as it is now fulfilled in the covenant of Christ. We follow Christ's commandments, and not the Law of Moses.

The only way to have spiritual life is to be forgiven of all of your sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14); who is the only spiritual life there is.

The law stands as an alternate method of being saved that will never cut it.

The Law of God today requires us to believe in Jesus as the basis of God's Law for our lives and as the basis for eternal atonement for our sins. When we keep this requirement to believe in God's Son, we obtain an eternal spiritual relationship with God. It is the exact same process as existed under the Old Covenant, but now renders permanent what was only temporary under the Law.

I've had to shorten up my arguments because the posts were getting too long, and too repetitious. I don't think we're getting much further now?

 

[justbyfaith]

But God still required Man to live by His Law. It remained the basis of Man's relationship with Him, even though they were cursed to continue sinning, with its accompanying judgment, or curse.

Again, the law is not the basis of man's relationship with God. Faith is. Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 2:16;; Romans 5:1-2.

So God's Law has always been and always will be the basis of relationship between God and Man.

See above.

I think that you are very far from the salvation that the Lord wants to give you. As long as you are trusting in yourself and your ability to keep the law, you will not be saved; for forgiveness does not come through that means.

Therefore the basis for man's relationship with the Lord is faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood; and being forgiven through that means.

Now that Christ has dealt with sin, we still have to obey the Law of God as it is now fulfilled in the covenant of Christ.

It is not a matter of *have to* but of *want to* in Christ.

There is no more condemnation from the law for those who are in Christ.

Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6; Ephesians 2:15-15, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19.

Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.

The law no longer condemns us from the outside, as a law written on tables of stone; but it now governs us from the inside, as a gospel that is written on fleshy tables of human hearts.

The first verses show that obedience to the law is no longer required.

The last two verses show that as believers, we desire to obey the word of the Lord; and that this is our motivation for obedience: not that we would be condemned if we didn't; but because we have been redeemed and our hearts have been changed through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

I will say that love is the fulfilling of the law.

We receive the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14). And the fruit of the Spirit is at its most basic level the love of the Lord, with eight aspects of divine love (Galatians 5:22-23). Against such there is no law.

Therefore the means by which we are obedient is not by endeavoring to keep a set of do's and don'ts; but rather by bearing the Spirit's fruit so that nothing we do is in violation of any law requirement.

Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe it was Martin D. Loyd Jones who said that if you are never accused of being antinomian in your theology, you aren't preaching the true gospel. So thank you.

You have just placed yourself among the heretics.

The man in question is no heretic; he is a well-known and accepted Bible teacher.

 

[justbyfaith]

You cannot show faith without obeying God's word.

James 2.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

See Romans 4:2.

Obedience to God's word is our justification before man;

Before the Lord our justification is by faith alone.

Do a thorough reading of and meditating on Romans 4:1-8, please.

 

[justbyfaith]

I've had to shorten up my arguments because the posts were getting too long, and too repetitious. I don't think we're getting much further now?

But out of care and love and concern for you I am continuing to endeavor to speak with you.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Randy Kluth,

You may benefit from reading this:

Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

 

[Randy Kluth]

@Randy Kluth,

You may benefit from reading this:

Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

Who is this guy? He is so messed up? All I had to do was read 2 lines, and I was done:
"1 I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law—I am not obligated to obey the law for my salvation. Romans 6:14, 7:4, 7:6.

2 But because I am saved, I desire to obey the word, including the law of the Old Testament—I desire to obey the law because I am saved."

What craziness is this? He is not under the Law of Moses (#1), and he desires to be under the Law of Moses (#2). Please don't pass on confusing, contradictory material. Thank you!

 

[justbyfaith]

Who is this guy? He is so messed up? All I had to do was read 2 lines, and I was done:
"1 I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law—I am not obligated to obey the law for my salvation. Romans 6:14, 7:4, 7:6.

2 But because I am saved, I desire to obey the word, including the law of the Old Testament—I desire to obey the law because I am saved."

What craziness is this? He is not under the Law of Moses (#1), and he desires to be under the Law of Moses (#2). Please don't pass on confusing, contradictory material. Thank you!

Your loss.

The document in question is very conducive to living a holy life.

It also helps those who are dealing with condemnation.

Many people have said that there are even contradictions in the Bible; while there are none.

It is faithful and true that the author of the document in question is not contradicting himself by any means.

 

[justbyfaith]

What craziness is this?

Craziness that has the power to save your soul.

1Co 1:21, For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness (craziness) of preaching to save them that believe.

2Co 5:13, For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
2Co 5:14, For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15, And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[justbyfaith]

Who is this guy?

Yours truly (Victor Jedidiah is a pen name)...

 

[justbyfaith]

1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yours truly (Victor Jedidiah is a pen name)...

I wish you had said that to begin with. I would've been more interested in reading it. I want to know what *you believe,* rather than what somebody else believes, particularly when what another is saying seems to complicate things more.

Also, I may have been less rude if I had known you were just giving me your own material. Thanks.

 

[justbyfaith]

I wish you had said that to begin with. I would've been more interested in reading it. I want to know what *you believe,* rather than what somebody else believes, particularly when what another is saying seems to complicate things more.

Also, I may have been less rude if I had known you were just giving me your own material. Thanks.

No biggie.

 

[Randy Kluth]

See Romans 4:2.

Obedience to God's word is our justification before man;

Before the Lord our justification is by faith alone.

Do a thorough reading of and meditating on Romans 4:1-8, please.

You can can leave off the "assignments," thank you. You are quoting Martin Luther, and not James.

James 2.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James is talking about *justification before God,* and not justification before men! James is talking about "salvation," which is a matter of justification before God!

 

[justbyfaith]

You can can leave off the "assignments," thank you. You are quoting Martin Luther, and not James.

James 2.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James is talking about *justification before God,* and not justification before men! James is talking about "salvation," which is a matter of justification before God!

If you don't want to study the verses I have referenced, I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree.

But if you're willing to discuss them, I'm open to that also.

 

[Helen]

No, the Law is a covenant. You enter into a relationship with God by meeting the conditions of the covenant. Of course, this is now an out-dated covenant.

...which was not to the Gentiles anyway!!

We live by faith in and through the Son of God. The Blood is our covering and protection from the Enemy.

The law has nothing to do with us...but as @justbyfaith has said...
We automatically keep His law because we keep the two commandments He left us.."Love God, Love Neighbour " ...

LOVE keeps and fulfills God Law automatically , it is not work, it is our new nature in Christ. It is His reflection in us and out of us.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again, the law is not the basis of man's relationship with God. Faith is. Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 2:16;; Romans 5:1-2.

James 2.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Matt 5.17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matt 23.23 the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness.

Rom 2.13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

When Paul speaks of not being justified under the Law by its "works," he is talking about final redemption, which were the works that Christ did--something that the priests of the Law could *not* do. But *obedience* to the Law was required despite the fact the works of the Law could not bring final justification.

Paul saw himself as identified with Christ under the Law, being crucified and lost, unless by resurrection he could be raised with Christ. We are still under obligation to obey Christ. But now we are justified by him, since in his death he refused to hold us in bondage to the condemnation of our sins.

The Law required obedience, but its "works" could not justify us on a permanent basis. It was inferior, as a system of righteousness, to the righteousness of Christ, which comes to us together with final justification.

Matt 5.20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The righteousness of the Law preexisted Christ, and was inferior in the sense that redemption was left incomplete.

Your comments are insulting, and insinuate that I depend on the works of the Law to justify myself. I've *never* said that! In saying that you actually are slandering me! If I have said this, please provide a quote. Otherwise, please cease and desist.

I believe *only* Christ's works can justify us in the eternal sphere of things. The Law did provide righteousness when Israel obeyed it, and it did please God, created a covenant with Him, and offered temporary kinds of "salvation," such as deliverance from enemies.

Inasmuch as the Law and its obedience was part of a covenant with God, it did provide a transient form of "spiritual life." This spiritual life, however, was always meant to be made "eternal" by the redemptive works of Christ.

You *do not understand* this theology. You are just passing on the external lingo, without understanding what it means!