Understanding The 144,000

[Davy]

Scripture also says it is the devil who blinds the eyes of men.
2 Corinthians 4:4

I have a hard time believing that the enemy blinds some and God blinds others. Just my opinion based on scripture as a whole.

Anybody who is blinded from the Truth will then, logically, live a life of sin. That doesn't make sense that God would cause people to disobey His Sacred Ways for centuries only to redeem them in the end. It just doesn't follow scripture at all.

I've heard of it, read about it, etc. I guess it's hard for me to reconcile the concept with scripture like Ezekiel 18 and Romans 2 as well as many others.

If they are blinded, even if by God, they will, without a doubt, live in sin, commit wicked deeds and work iniquity.

The Bible repeatedly states that those who fall into that category will be judged, will be punished, in the end.

So how can that possibly work?

Like I said before, if you struggle with what Paul said in Romans 11:25 forward, I'd be glad to help you with it. But I'm not going to argue with you about what Paul said with God having blinded Paul's brethren the Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. That's the Scripture, and either you believe it as written, or you don't. I can't help you if you don't.

 

[Davy]

@Davy

In Romans 11:7 Paul makes a distinction between Israel and the elect. To me, he is differentiating between those OF Israel who are deemed worthy and those who are not.

Romans 11 is actually about 3 different groups of Israelites, so what you're saying is partially true.

1. the "election according to grace" -- those 7,000 preserved in the time of Elijah, and those of the seed of Israel in Christ, like the Apostles and disciples, and onward of the seed.

2. the unsaved of the seed of Israel, of all 12 tribes, mostly those who were scattered through the countries by the time of Paul. Many of these would believe when The Gospel was preached to them in those other countries, and become part of group 1.

3. the Jews, Paul's brethren in Jerusalem-Judea he was specifically pointing to that refused Christ Jesus. These are a specific group because they got to see Jesus and had obvious opportunity to believe, but refused Him and had Him crucified. The majority of Israelites were not there at that time, so the majority of Israelites were not under that. Yet those Jews that saw Jesus yet rejected Him are still not held accountable today for their sin, because God Himself put the "spirit of slumber" upon them away from The Gospel (Romans 11:8).

Paul said if those Jews don't still remain in unbelief, then God is able to graff them in again (Romans 11:23). But when will that 'blindness' God put upon them be removed, so they can... believe on Jesus, meaning in majority? Paul told us when, when that "fullness of the Gentiles" is complete.

Therefore, those of us in Christ are not to judge them, because the unbelieving Jews (especially the Jews that love The Father and seek Him), they simply don't know what they do today in rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah.

 

[Davy]

Your view.

Not my view, but Apostle Paul's view in 2 Thessalonians 2.

I agree. Again, I am mot Pre-trib. Post -tribbers manipulate their view

Post-trib isn't a doctrine of men, because it is the only view that aligns with God's written Word. Any other view doesn't, and that includes the Mid-trib position, which is actually a Pre-trib view in disguise.

You must getting me mixed up with a Pre-tribber you are arguing with?

No, I'm not... mixed up. You said you believed in a Mid-trib rapture of the Church. That means in the middle of Daniel's symbolic "one week" which represents a 7 year period (two 1260 day halves).

So let's see, per the Daniel 9:27 Scripture, the "abomination of desolation" idol is to be setup right there at that Mid-point of the "one week". And in Matthew 24 that is when Lord Jesus showed the "great tribulation" will begin, which starts the latter 1260 day half of the "one week". That just so happens to be when Pre-trib says Jesus will come to rapture them to Heaven, i.e., prior to the tribulation.

Yes, that is a curious statement in the middle of the bowls, since of the Church was taken out at the 7th Trumpet. It is a message for the reader, not for the people on earth
at that time. Why? Because in verse 6, Jesus gives the entirw world blood to drink ( we are not here for this). In verse 9, it is apparent that no one repents and mankind blasphemes God. Verse 10, the Beast's kingdom is filled with darkness! Really how could the Church, the Light of the world be extinquished by darkness???
It can't! We are not on earth at thay time.

Like I showed in Revelation 16:15 on the 6th Vial, Lord Jesus is STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and for His Church to keep their garments, meaning remain steadfast and faithful waiting on Him to come. That's 6th Vial timing when He showed that. That a Message that the Church is STILL on earth at that 6th Vial! Then it shows His gathering the nations to battle at Armageddon, which the battle is a 7th Vial event. That means, what you have believed when the rapture happens is false. We will still be here all the way through those 6 Vials of Revelation 16.

Matt. 24:29

You take these things lightly?

Why would you say something like that? especially when I said before that I'm very serious about these things, because I am keeping to what is actually written. I'm not twisting it like men's doctrines do.

I guess you don't consider starving, dying from a disease, bullets flying by you in a war or an earthquake that kills your family as stressful?

This is where you are just speculating, again, and stray from Scripture. Pre-trib believers do that all the time too. Like I showed from what Lord Jesus gave in Matthew 24, the time of wars, famines, earthquakes, etc., is PRIOR to the time of great tribulation. Just like the Pre-trib Rapture doctors, you have been WRONGLY taught that the "great tribulation" time is going to be like WWIII and all out chaos. That is not how Jesus showed those Signs. But go ahead, drink up the spirit of drunkeness in listening to those false ideas from men's doctrines, if that's what you want. I choose to stick with God's Word as written.

 

[Davy]

Old Testament
Genssis 49:24 - "Jacob is Called the Bow, and the Stone of Isreal" (rainbow)

New Testament
Matthew 17:4-5 - Jesus removes the "Stone from Jacob" (that stone is Joseph)

144,000
2Samuel 1:17-18 - Rev. 5:5 - David is called the Bow (Rainbow) (God takes Joseph away, according to Ezekiel 37:18)

(Jacob was never favored by God, he was only blessed for a season............he stole his brother birthright, however God didn't finish their accusation of dead flesh............at that time............God doesn't do the work of dead flesh, so God is not going to do a complete work of euthanasia for the hebrews, God will take certain actions, jerusalem/isreal will fall, but that may not be profitable at all.............the final climax of suicide pleasure with satan, is reached when we see the full latent extent of the rotting of the body and the earth's field effect)

(God doesn't appear to resolve the "son of man", at the same time the controversy is resolved.............when God casts satan into the earth, is not the same time, the two witnesses are raised (but only when the jesus is raised according to zechariah 14)

(Remember Jacob in so many words, killed his brother, mother and father.............that is a description of the hebrews and natural sin (and the gospels says if you kill jesus/joseph you must be killed).............a sustainable unified field reaction accordingly, should change the natural bodies design on earth, that probably won't happen though, 1 to 2 billion plus people will need to die, and proper discernment, so we'll still have to see about god's mercies)

GENESIS 48:13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought [them] near unto him. (MUST DIE)

(the united states protects jewish crime, and does not report it properly, now there were reports that that mass murder at the batman movie theatres not to long ago was by a jew, that believed his "jewish priveledge" (they believe they are exempt from some of the constitutional laws), was trampled, by the association to the holocaust and that batman movie at that time)

ABSOLUTE NAZI JUNK!

You've been reported.

 

[Davy]

"They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb."
REV. 14:3-4

The virgin defilement is a spiritual metaphor, not literal. If it were literal, it would mean anyone that never had sex that believed could be among that 144,000. Use your brain man. The meaning is actually about those who stood faithful waiting on Jesus, and those who refused the mark. Those represent the five wise virgins of Matthew 25. Moreover, haven't you ever read in God's Word the metaphors referring to those in Christ as 'virgins', meant spiritually? There are several Scripture examples.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Not my view, but Apostle Paul's view in 2 Thessalonians 2

Don't see anything in there that supports a Post-Trib view. ???

Post-trib isn't a doctrine of men, because it is the only view that aligns with God's written Word. Any other view doesn't, and that includes the Mid-trib position, which is actually a Pre-trib view in disguise.

Wrong. The first key element of the timing of the Rapture, lies in identifying the "last trumpet". If it is #7, then both Pre-Trib and Post-Trib views are wrong!
The second key element is the "mystery of God", which will be revealed at the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 10:7). This is the same mystery spoken about in 1 Cor. 15:51, 52 describing our resurrection.
Again. at this time, heaven opens up, we receive rewards, the dead are also resurrected and judged, the nations of the worls become the Lord's and then the Lord continues and releases 7 bowls of His wrath which take some time.

No, I'm not... mixed up. You said you believed in a Mid-trib rapture of the Church. That means in the middle of Daniel's symbolic "one week" which represents a 7 year period (two 1260 day halves)

The GT is 3 1/2 years, not 7.
I am not an adherent to Daniel's 70th week. That was a prophecy abiut His first coming only.

Like I showed in Revelation 16:15 on the 6th Vial, Lord Jesus is STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief",

That was a general message to the reader. He mentioned that in Rev. 3:10 also so it is just reiterated.

 

[Davy]

Don't see anything in there that supports a Post-Trib view. ???

Then you haven't actually read it. From the start the subject is what in 2 Thessalonians 2? The subject Paul defines as being about the day of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him...

2 Thess 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
KJV

Then Paul defines specific events that MUST happen before... verse 2 can take place.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

Did you miss that too then??

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The virgin defilement is a spiritual metaphor, not literal. If it were literal, it would mean anyone that never had sex that believed could be among that 144,000. Use your brain man

When the literal meaning of scripture does not work with your theology, the typical solution id to say - it's symbolic and the proceed to offer something that does work. I've heard all sorts abstract interpretations from the twilight zone.
It doesn't mean that anyone who didn't have sex from any time or any tribe, it means specific living young men, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes (that only God knows, who He has prepared for this very time in history and has sustained each tribe -unbeknownst to any one or any records kept).

The meaning is actually about those who stood faithful waiting on Jesus, and those who refused the mark.

They are faithful and they have been waiting.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Then you haven't actually read it. From the start the subject is what in 2 Thessalonians 2? The subject Paul defines as being about the day of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him...

2 Thess 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
KJV

Then Paul defines specific events that MUST happen before... verse 2 can take place.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

Did you miss that too then??

Got all that. Our gathering comes after the falling away and the son the perdition being revealed. And ... why does that translate to you Post-Trib. That happens before His wrarh comes. HIS Wrath doesn't come until He does and it will certainly last for more than one day.

 

[Davy]

Wrong. The first key element of the timing of the Rapture, lies in identifying the "last trumpet". If it is #7, then both Pre-Trib and Post-Trib views are wrong!
The second key element is the "mystery of God", which will be revealed at the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 10:7). This is the same mystery spoken about in 1 Cor. 15:51, 52 describing our resurrection.
Again. at this time, heaven opens up, we receive rewards, the dead are also resurrected and judged, the nations of the worls become the Lord's and then the Lord continues and releases 7 bowls of His wrath which take some time.

I'm not wrong, because I'm keeping to God's Word.

The Daniel 9:27 verse reveals a final symbolic period of "one week" (or one seven). Per the prophecy, that "one week" is to equal a period of 7 years. In the MIDDLE of that "one week", that verse says that is when the abomination of desolation is placed...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV


In Jesus' Olivet discourse Signs, He showed the "great tribulation" will be when that "abomination of desolation" idol is seen setup in Jerusalem...

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Thusly, there... is the start... of the last half of the "one week", the latter 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days, or a time, times, and half a time, whichever way you want to figure it. It is the 1260 days of God's two witnesses prophesying against the beast in Revelation 11, within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. That... is the "great tribulation" time Lord Jesus was pointing to above.

The GT is 3 1/2 years, not 7.
I am not an adherent to Daniel's 70th week. That was a prophecy abiut His first coming only.

And thus your confusion about the abomination of desolation being setup in the MIDDLE of the symbolic "one week".

So if you say, "The GT is 3 1/2 years, not 7", then it means you DO adhere to that Daniel 9:27 prophecy being about the end of this world, and not about Christ's 1st coming. Sorry, but I'm not going to allow you to speak out of both sides of your mouth contradicting yourself without my bringing your attention to it.

That was a general message to the reader. He mentioned that in Rev. 3:10 also so it is just reiterated.

What?? Those preachers you listen to have really confused you away from Scripture. The Revelation 16:15 warning is by Lord Jesus that He comes "as a thief", and He is speaking to His Church. That Message is pointing to TWO SUBJECTS,

a.) the timing of His coming "as a thief", and
b.) the fact that He gave that warning within the 6th Vial timeline.

Now I could cover a long post about that "as a thief" metaphor, because He taught it in His Olivet discourse about the symbolic thief breaking in, and to be watching so as to prevent the thief and not suffer your house to be broken into. He compared the day of His coming with that thief breaking in. And He even used the metaphorical time of 'midnight' within it! (Mark 13:35).

How are you going to understand those ideas written in Scripture if you cannot understand symbolic metaphor or allegory?

 

[Davy]

When the literal meaning of scripture does not work with your theology, the typical solution id to say - it's symbolic and the proceed to offer something that does work. I've heard all sorts abstract interpretations from the twilight zone.
It doesn't mean that anyone who didn't have sex from any time or any tribe, it means specific living young men, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes (that only God knows, who He has prepared for this very time in history and has sustained each tribe -unbeknownst to any one or any records kept).


They are faithful and they have been waiting.

OK, gotcha', so all one must do is STAY A LITERAL VIRGIN, and believe on Jesus, and you'll be one of the 144,000! Sure... that's exactly how that's meant. NOT!

I can see that you have a difficult time with metaphor and allegory in God's Word. What about this one by Apostle Paul...

2 Cor 11:2
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
KJV

Are you a literal chaste virgin? Have you ever had sex?

It's hard for me to believe that you don't understand how Apostle Paul was speaking that spiritually, and not about a literal virgin. I think you're just trying to toy with me, that you do actually understand it.

 

[Davy]

Got all that. Our gathering comes after the falling away and the son the perdition being revealed. And ... why does that translate to you Post-Trib. That happens before His wrarh comes. HIS Wrath doesn't come until He does and it will certainly last for more than one day.

Because of what Paul later said in that 2 Thessalonians 2 chapter...

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
KJV

That "man of sin" is to be destroyed with the coming of Jesus, meaning His 2nd coming. Can the great trib still be going on when that happens? No, of course not. Jesus' coming is what ends... the GT. And that revelation by Paul there that "man of sin" is destroyed on the day of Christ's coming MARKS that as after... the tribulation. Guess what? That aligns with what Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 about the time of His coming and gathering of the saints too.

 

[GEN2REV]

the Four Horsemen bring death to 25% of the population alone. Then the Trumpets bring more death to another 1/3 of the population which makes that over half. We account for 1/3 and will be raptured. That leaves less than a billion alive when the Bowls are released.

The point is that the Wrath of God could very easily (and does) happen in a single day, just like scripture indicates it does ... on The Last Day.

And, conveniently, your quote above happens to support that.

Thanks for being open-minded.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'm not wrong, because I'm keeping to God's Word.

The Daniel 9:27 verse reveals a final symbolic period of "one week" (or one seven). Per the prophecy, that "one week" is to equal a period of 7 years. In the MIDDLE of that "one week", that verse says that is when the abomination of desolation is placed...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV


In Jesus' Olivet discourse Signs, He showed the "great tribulation" will be when that "abomination of desolation" idol is seen setup in Jerusalem...

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Thusly, there... is the start... of the last half of the "one week", the latter 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days, or a time, times, and half a time, whichever way you want to figure it. It is the 1260 days of God's two witnesses prophesying against the beast in Revelation 11, within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. That... is the "great tribulation" time Lord Jesus was pointing to above.



And thus your confusion about the abomination of desolation being setup in the MIDDLE of the symbolic "one week".

So if you say, "The GT is 3 1/2 years, not 7", then it means you DO adhere to that Daniel 9:27 prophecy being about the end of this world, and not about Christ's 1st coming. Sorry, but I'm not going to allow you to speak out of both sides of your mouth contradicting yourself without my bringing your attention to it.




What?? Those preachers you listen to have really confused you away from Scripture. The Revelation 16:15 warning is by Lord Jesus that He comes "as a thief", and He is speaking to His Church. That Message is pointing to TWO SUBJECTS,

a.) the timing of His coming "as a thief", and
b.) the fact that He gave that warning within the 6th Vial timeline.

Now I could cover a long post about that "as a thief" metaphor, because He taught it in His Olivet discourse about the symbolic thief breaking in, and to be watching so as to prevent the thief and not suffer your house to be broken into. He compared the day of His coming with that thief breaking in. And He even used the metaphorical time of 'midnight' within it! (Mark 13:35).

How are you going to understand those ideas written in Scripture if you cannot understand symbolic metaphor or allegory?

It's OK. The Post-Trib view is accepted by many ... as well as the Gap theory too. No need to argue any further - we are getting no where. Keep your view, it doesn't matter. I put limits on how long I am willing to wrestle with a topic, I'm done. See ya up there whenever!

 

[Truman]

My theory is that He gets here when He gets here. And whenever that is, it won't be too soon!
I am on the road...to my home...in the New Jerusalem.
I'm on the road, I'm goin' home, I'm on the road, I'm not alone,
I'm on the road...to my home!
Looking neither to the left, nor to the right, but gazing straight ahead I see an awesome sight,
Descending from the sky, adorned like a bride, is my home!
And when I get there, there will be...
No more death...no more mourning...no more crying...or pain! Hallelujah!

 

[Davy]

It's OK. The Post-Trib view is accepted by many ... as well as the Gap theory too. No need to argue any further - we are getting no where. Keep your view, it doesn't matter. I put limits on how long I am willing to wrestle with a topic, I'm done. See ya up there whenever!

There you go again, trying to be smart, saying it's 'my'... view. No it's not... 'my view', it's God's View within His Word of Truth. Big difference. And if others also grasp it from God's Word, that's not just some kind of pop movement, it instead means that is what God's written Word is actually pointing to. So you can try and smear that all you want, because you're not doing it against me, but instead against God's Holy Writ.

 

[Timtofly]

Nowhere in the Bible is there any reference to the cross or Christ's Resurrection as any Last Day event.

What it is, like the majority of what you are preaching, is completely unscriptural.

Post ONE verse that refers to the Great Tribulation as the Final Harvest.

Complete fabrication.

Here, you admit the 2nd Coming is a Last Day event.

The Day of the Lord is the destruction of all wickedness upon the earth.

The Lord will destroy all the wicked with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8)

And again, when does He come? The Last Day. The two events are one and the same. When the Lord returns to gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other (Matthew 24:31), the Wrath of God will come upon all the earth.

Undeniable.

Absolutely FALSE.

Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION, shall Christ return. (Matthew 24:29-30)

His church shall be there when He does. Plain as day.

And the wicked will be destroyed at that time, which will be the Day of The Lord.

You can wrestle against God's Words all you like, but you can never overcome them.

Then you teach the OT is currently running in parallel to the NT, and the OT never stopped.

 

[GEN2REV]

Then you teach the OT is currently running in parallel to the NT, and the OT never stopped.

NO, I teach what the Bible teaches, not what traditions of men teach.

That is that the Mosaic Laws ended at the Cross and/or at the destruction of the Temple because without a Temple, they have no purpose.

And I teach that the 10 Commandments will never expire. Just as God intended.

Because, read carefully - and without man's interference, that is what scripture teaches; and that is what is learned when somebody reads scripture on their own with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and without being taught what it "really" means by man.

I don't teach my own doctrine. Never have.

 

[Davy]

Then you teach the OT is currently running in parallel to the NT, and the OT never stopped.

That's an ignorant statement, like just because you keep to men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, which is NOT written anywhere in God's Word, you instead treat believers that disagree with you like they are still following the old covenant!


Brethren in Christ: those who stay in God's written Word instead of heeding men's doctrines ought to easily fathom the delusions by these on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, and how they like to make up obvious lies against those who refuse to agree with them. I really get tired of seeing their slanders and lies. They don't have any Scripture to back up what they're saying, and their acts show they have no intention of keeping to what God's written Word actually says.

 

[GEN2REV]

>So according to you, the rapture occurs and every eye that sees Him mourns, runs and hides in the caves ... but only for moments because it's over? His Seven Bowls of wrath that is poured out only lasts till the end of the day?

That's exactly what the Bible says.

You've been presented with the 6 verses from John multiple times now that state that Jesus comes on the Last Day. That clearly implies that it all ends ON THE DAY THAT HE COMES. Or the Bible wouldn't refer to it as the LAST DAY.

Here is yet another scripture to bolster this FACT from God's Word:

" ... the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."
Luke 17:29-30

ONE SINGLE DAY OF TOTAL DESTRUCTION

"The DAY of The Lord."