Understanding The 144,000

[Ronald David Bruno]

I am cautious, and I'm very serious with what I say. That's why many here have a hard time understanding me, because I don't play Churchianity. You apparently don't understand that our Heavenly Father showed in His prophets that He is 'using'... Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious. The confusion that Satan causes is 'allowed' by God. Have you not read Judges 2 and Judges 3 where God was angry with Israel for not destroying the specific Canaanite nations He commanded Israel to literally wipe out? Because they disobeyed Him, He said He would leave those Canaanites among Israel, to try Israel with, to see if they would follow Him, or not.

Thus God allows... Satan to deceive us, IF... WE... allow it. How's that? It happens when WE listen and heed man instead of our Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word. It's that... simple! So the many doctrines out there by so-called respected theologians really doesn't mean squat IF it is contrary to God's Holy Writ. But how can we know that? By listening to God... in His Word first. Then use God's Word as the Measure of man's words. It's simple.



It ain't over until it's over. Not everyone is ordained to hear and believe The Gospel during this present world. An example is the unbelieving Jews which God blinded away from The Gospel that Paul showed in Romans 11. Their time of hear The Gospel with that blindness removed will be for after Christ's future return. So preachers that try to preach to be saved one must believe only during this present world go against God's Holy Writ. Not everyone is going to 'hear' The Gospel during this world. That's why there will be a future literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect with the "rod of iron."



Keep studying, because what you've been taught about the great tribulation isn't what God's Word is showing about that time.

Matt 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
KJV

Pre-trib wrongly teaches those events happen during... the great trib. They even use those things as a fear tactic.

But Lord Jesus showed there those things happen prior... the great trib, in a time He called "the beginning of sorrows".

We can easily know this by His saying when the wars and rumors of war are happening, the 'end is not yet'. By that "end" He means the time of great trib, the very end of this world just prior to His return.

So what kind of time is the opposite of wars and rumors of war? It's a time of world peace.

That... is what the great trib is going to be like, a time of world peace when all wars have stopped. The reason is because the pseudo-Christ will have arrived and will deceive the whole world into believing on him in place of God. That will be the time of "strong delusion" Paul warned of.

God's two witnesses that appear in Jerusalem during that time will war with the beast and his one world kingdom, spiritually, per Rev.11. It will be similar to the time of Moses and Aaron in Egypt with the plagues. And when their 1260 days of prophesying against the beast is done, the beast king will kill them, and leave their dead bodies laying the plaza in Jerusalem.

The the nations seeing their dead bodies will rejoice that they are dead, and will give gifts to each other, like throwing a big party (this per Rev.11).

Even in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul showed how the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time.

Thus many don't understand what the great trib is really about. It is about false worship to the first supernatural Messiah that comes saying He is Christ, and working the great signs and miracles to deceive, as written. For the deceived, it'll be a chicken in every pot, all their debts paid off, etc.

God is sovereign. I am well aware that Satan cannot do anything without His permission. Of course God allows evil to accomplish Hus purpose.
You keep arguing against the Pre-Trib view with me - I am not a Pre-Trib.
I am Mid-Trib/Pre-wrath. The 7th Trumpet is when the Rapture occurs.
The rapture coincides with all these events that occur at the 7th Trumpet:
* The mystery of God is revealed (Rev. 10:7)
This mystery is hinted at in 1 Cor. 15:51-53 " Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep,but we will be changed, in a moment; in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ..."
* Christ appears.
* The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's.
* The dead are resurrected and judged also.
* We receive rewards according to our deeds.
* The Temple of God is open in Heaven.
* The Seven Bowls of God's wrath are released. So you see, the GT continues

What happens during the Seven Bowls?
* Could and loathsome sites affect all men. Certainly this takes time.
* The seas turns to blood and all life in the sea dies. More time.
* Rivers and Springs turn to blood.
* The sun scorched man with fire.
* Euphrates River dries up to allow forces from the east to cross and invade. (Armagedon)
* Great Earthquake shakes the entire planet, leveling mountains and islands and collapsing all buildings. One hundred pound hailstones fall.
God does not appoint the Church to this wrath. We do suffer through much, but not the Seven Bowls.

 

[GEN2REV]

Women can defile themselves with women too ...

Yeah, I'm aware women can have a form of intercourse with each other, but does that line up with KJV scripture's specific wording of being "defiled with women"? You got me. Not enough information in the Bible to say for sure, but my educated guess would be that it's specifically referring to men.

... the bible doesn’t say that they are men because they are not. Being virgins is about the church being pure.

I'm aware of the Biblical reference to adultery/whoredom as referring to worshipping other gods besides the God of the Bible. I'm not so sure this reference to virgins here is talking about that.

There is plenty of scriptural reference that refers to celibacy and even eunuchs as a blessed lifestyle. Your stating that this particular verse means what you say it means is nothing more than an opinion with zero scripture to back it up. Which, I might add, is your typical Modus Operandi.

We the church are the bride of the Lamb but that doesn’t mean that we are all women.

No, ... it doesn't.

 

[Marty fox]

Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ. That was the point. Humans do not have a say in whom God knows are the 12.

Many are chosen by Christ Paul wasn't a disciple he only called himself an apostle

 

[GEN2REV]

What verse claims a last day?

The Day of the Lord is the last 1000 year reign of Christ. God brings to a close in the final harvest the reign of sin. That part (the final harvest) is great trouble, because spiritual blindness will be removed, and all humanity will see the battle between Satan and God. Christ comes to remove the works of wickedness in fire and judgment. Not just at Armageddon, which is the clean up of Satan's 42 months. The 6th Seal brings the day of reckoning. The Trumpets and the Thunders are Christ on earth, just like the time spent the first time between the baptism and the Cross. It will be trouble for the Jews. It will be punishment for those who have rejected the truth of God's Word. But none of Adam's flesh and blood survive this time. All will have to shed this corruptible flesh. Many souls will end up in Death, seen at the 4th Seal. Many souls will be resurrected per Revelation 20:4 to live on the earth for the 1000 year reign, known as the Day of the Lord. The resurrection will give those humans a permanent incorruptible physical body. Sin will be no more. But Death will be the result of disobedience to the iron rod reign of Christ. Humans will be born during these 1000 years. More than we know today, where sin and decay destroys life.

Sorry, but your doctrine is all over the place, ... and wrong.

The book of John states SIX TIMES, without any ambiguity, that Christ will come for His people on The Last Day. Period.

John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24; 12:48

Jesus, Himself, says it FIVE TIMES. There is NO mistaking what he means.

He will not do this over a time frame of ONE THOUSAND YEARS.

The word used there for Day means DAY. Just as it means DAY in Genesis chapter 1. "And the evening and the morning were the ... day."

 

[GEN2REV]

Armageddon and His wrath may only last forty days, but certainly more than one.

This is as flimsy an assumption as those who claim that Creation week SURELY lasted more than 6 literal days. Despite the fact that the Bible makes clear they were literal DAYS.

I am absolutely certain His wrath lasts longer than one day!

Based on zero scripture.

A 24-hour period is quite a long time for constant destruction to take place.

100 Lb. hail stones could fall all over the world for a couple hours alone and absolutely devastate the majority of the infrastructure and kill 80% of the population. That leaves 22 hours of the rest of the literal WRATH OF GOD unlike anything ever recorded in history to judge the earth.

Don't discount the Words of the Bible. Jesus can easily return in the morning to gather all of His saints and absolutely annihilate the entire world by supper with wave after wave of destructive means.

Reign in all of your unscriptural assumptions and trust the Word of God.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry, but your doctrine is all over the place, ... and wrong.

The book of John states SIX TIMES, without any ambiguity, that Christ will come for His people on The Last Day. Period.

John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24; 12:48

Jesus, Himself, says it FIVE TIMES. There is NO mistaking what he means.

He will not do this over a time frame of ONE THOUSAND YEARS.

The word used there for Day means DAY. Just as it means DAY in Genesis chapter 1. "And the evening and the morning were the ... day."

There was a last day resurrection. It was the Cross. Do you not acknowledge the end of the OT and the start of the NT?

The Second Coming is a last day event, but not the Day of the Lord event. I never said it would take 1000 years to end things. The 1000 years starts at the end of the battle of Armageddon.

6pm on a Sunday, which would start the Millennium on a Monday. Keeping with evening and morning are the first day.

I was just trying to figure out your "last day" point. Many try to claim we have been in the last days for 1991 years. Others claim the GWT is the last day. I was trying to see how you stood. The time of sin can not go past the Passover of 2030. I do not see sinful humanity being here much longer than 5 years. That is including the 42 months Satan and the FP are allowed to rule, per Revelation 13, and if Daniel 9:27 happens. The Millennium could start in the Spring of 2023.

Calling the GT the final harvest is not "all over the place". Most of the parables Jesus gave about sowing and reaping deals with both the first coming and the last coming. Christ is going to be on the earth at the Second Coming during this time of GT. The church is not.

The book of Hebrews clearly points out the redemption of the church was complete on the Cross. This world is not our home. We are only aliens and Ambassadors of Paradise, who start out on earth, but do not belong on this earth. The majority of the church is already there. The Seals deal with the judgment of the church on earth. The church leaves earth at the 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming. The Second Coming is the last day on earth for the church until after the NHNE, in Revelation 21-22.

 

[Davy]

Why would saved people go through this if no one can get saved? What is the point, to get people unsaved, by not having their head chopped off? All you get is a headless bride.

That question really doesn't make sense, since the Church will go through the coming "great tribulation", and gathered by Christ at the end of it, as written in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, which aligns with 1 Thessalonians 4.

No one is going to accept God. God is going to accept them. Those who have their heads chopped off do so by faith, not knowing the outcome, unless they all read Revelation as written, and not how it is being taught today.

That doesn't make sense either, since the Signs Lord Jesus gave in Revelation 6 about the Seals aligns with His Signs He gave in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Those beheaded for a Testimony of The Word of God are His elect, and are ordained. To the Church of Smyrna in Revelation 2, Jesus told them they would be tried 10 days, and to be faithful unto death. Not all the Church is going to go through that, otherwise there wouldn't be anyone left for Christ's angels to gather per the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture.

Who teaches people to reject Christ so they can get their heads chopped off when the time comes? The church is gone at the 6th Seal after the tribulation of those days, the first 4 Seals where 2 billion people are killed.

Now you're being silly. There isn't anyone teaching such a thing. That's just an idea you are making up.

The Church is not... gone by the end of Revelation 6. On the 6th Vial in Revelation 16, Lord Jesus is still warning His Church that He comes "as a thief"...

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
KJV

Want to be blessed with keeping your salvation garments until Lord Jesus comes? Then you had best be still waiting for His coming until that 7th Vial, because that's what the above shows is when He comes for His bride.

Your Pre-trib Rapture theory preachers like to preach on that "as a thief" idea too, saying to "be ready", because "it will come as a thief". That's what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 5 too, that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". It's also what Lord Jesus taught in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about the thief breaking in, and blessed is the man who does not allow his house to be broken up. Lord Jesus made knowing the time of His coming at the end of the great tribulation easy by all those allegories.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church is not... gone by the end of Revelation 6. On the 6th Vial in Revelation 16, Lord Jesus is still warning His Church that He comes "as a thief"...

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
KJV

This is the parenthetical answer to this parenthetical question:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

If you are not ready at the 6th Seal, you will not be ready at the 7th Trumpet. Nor for anything that happens after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

If you reject that Christ is coming as a thief when most are not ready, why would those thoughts even be in God's Word?


Proclaiming that Christ could come at any time is the safest conclusion to be prepared for. Life will totally change at the moment of this Second Coming.

So at what point should be the real preparation for all parties involved?

The lost were not ready at the Second Coming. They will be prepared for Armageddon. The church will be prepared at the Second Coming, why will the church participate on earth at Armageddon?

 

[GEN2REV]

There was a last day resurrection. It was the Cross

Nowhere in the Bible is there any reference to the cross or Christ's Resurrection as any Last Day event.

Calling the GT the final harvest is not "all over the place"

What it is, like the majority of what you are preaching, is completely unscriptural.

Post ONE verse that refers to the Great Tribulation as the Final Harvest.

Complete fabrication.

The Second Coming is a last day event, but not the Day of the Lord event.

Here, you admit the 2nd Coming is a Last Day event.

The Day of the Lord is the destruction of all wickedness upon the earth.

The Lord will destroy all the wicked with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8)

And again, when does He come? The Last Day. The two events are one and the same. When the Lord returns to gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other (Matthew 24:31), the Wrath of God will come upon all the earth.

Undeniable.

Christ is going to be on the earth at the Second Coming during this time of GT. The church is not.

Absolutely FALSE.

Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION, shall Christ return. (Matthew 24:29-30)

His church shall be there when He does. Plain as day.

And the wicked will be destroyed at that time, which will be the Day of The Lord.

You can wrestle against God's Words all you like, but you can never overcome them.

 

[Davy]

That is the Post-Trib view, that the rapture occurs on the last day of the GT.

That's right, and a post-trib coming is the only timing written in God's Word for the return of our Lord Jesus to gather His Church, even by Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2.

The Pre-trib Rapture theorists have to manipulate and massage Bible Scripture to 'try' and make it point to Christ's coming prior to the trib to gather His Church. All the direct Scripture evidence for Christ's return to gather His Church at the end of the trib makes it easy to know the Pre-trib Rapture doctors are telling lies.

So if as you say, He comes on the last day and takes one and leaves another. What happens to the one left? No suffering, no wrath? What? He just comes on the last day and destroys them?

Your Pre-trib Rapture preachers didn't explain the last verse in Luke 17 about 'where' the first ones taken are gathered to, did they? They just left that out, didn't they?

Luke 17:36-37
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

The Matthew 24:28 version of that 37th verse has the word "carcase" for that "body", meaning a DEAD carcase. Per the allegory Lord Jesus gave with that, the "eagles" represent Satan's host. That's about the first one 'taken' in the field. That is who will be gathered as that DEAD carcase, put for the deceived.

So it will NOT be a good thing to be the 1st one taken in the field, for that one is gathered by Satan. It's those Jesus finds still working in the field (world) for Him, giving meat in due season, that He will gather and will bless. That means we are to WAIT on Him.

Yet how amazing... it is that so many duped people will listen to pop doctrines of men with all sorts of window dressing, movies, books, etc., instead of going into God's written Word for themselves to find out the Truth.

What about Armageddon, when the nations gather and war against Jesus, doesn't that happen AFTER HE ARRIVES?

On the 6th Vial, at Revelation 16:15, Jesus is STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and to keep their garments unless they appear in shame. Then on the 7th Vial is the battle of Armageddon. I don't see anything difficult about that timing Jesus gave us there. We are still here through those previous vials, and are only gathered on the 7th final vial, which is when He comes "as a thief", or "as a thief in the night" if you remember His allegory about the thief breaking in per Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

"After those days" means what He discussed that would happen prior to His coming: Wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, famine, earthquakes, etc.,which He described as the BEGINNING OF SORROWS.

Where are you getting that "After those days" phrase? What verse are you pulling from with that phrase?

I well know what He was warning within the "beginning of sorrows" part. That's when the wars and rumors of wars, pestilences, famines, and earthquakes take place, prior... to the tribulation. The "end" He mentioned is about the "great tribulation" time. That's why it is so easy to know that as long as wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, and famines are happening, that means the tribulation time is not yet. The trib is going to be a time of world peace, for the deceived. That's why Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5 they will be saying, "Peace and safety".

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
>So according to you, the rapture occurs and every eye that sees Him mourns, runs and hides in the caves ... but only for moments because it's over? His Seven Bowls of wrath that is poured out only lasts till the end of the day?

Thanks for adding your twists to what I showed from Scripture, that was interesting, but still they are just your twists you've been taught to do by the Pre-trib Rapture preachers.

Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", and then showed the day of His coming and the gathering of His saints. And the two versions of that in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are just a little bit different, because they align perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the coming of Jesus and gathering of His Church. Now that is not me trying re-write Bible Scripture; I am telling it like it is written.

And I challenge anyone to prove me wrong in those Scriptures. Those who just continue to blow hot air by refusing... to address those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures along with 1 Thessalonians 4 are only still blowing hot air, and show they are deceived by man's agenda.

 

[Davy]

The Church is taken out at the 7th Trumpet, then the Seven Bowls of wrath are released on the ungodly. The Church is not appointed to wrath, this we do go through part of the GT. Armageddon and His wrath may only last forty days, but certainly more than one.

Jesus comes on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. All of those events line up to the same time, the time when His wrath is poured out upon the wicked, and they seek to hide from Him. What you don't understand is that the 'wrath' Paul spoke of is about His final wrath on the last day when He comes. On the last day of this world is when the heaven will depart as a scroll, and every mountain and island is moved out of its place. That kind of wrath doesn't happen on the other previous vials.

6th Seal:
Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

7th Trumpet:
Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, "We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned."
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

7th Vial:
Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

That reveals the same 'wrath' event on the very last day of this world, per the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. That's the wrath of God that Apostle Paul was talking about when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety", and then "sudden destruction" comes upon them (see 1 Thessalonians 5). It is NOT Satan's wrath that some claim Paul was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. It's God's Wrath on the last day that we are not appointed to.

" But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
>> This passage correlates to the order of events. People apparently aren't suffering much until the day the flood came.,But the flood was His wrath that lasted forty days.
So shall it be (the world's condition, state and order of events) with the coming of Jesus. He comes in judgment, brings wrath and I am absolutely certain His wrath lasts longer than one day!

You ought to dig deeper into God's Word. Per Genesis, the flood waters were at their height for 150 days, then they began to recede. 150 days is equal to 5 months per Hebrew reckoning of 30 days to a month. Where did Jesus reveal a "five months" period to us?

Lord Jesus Christ is our symbolic 'ark' of protection through... the coming great tribulation. Even the idea that God sealed Noah and his family in the ark serves as an allegory for the end with our being sealed by The Holy Spirit in prep for the tribulation so that we might make a 'stand' in the "evil day" (Eph.6).

 

[Davy]

But you're still not answering my question. I'm not exactly sure why.

The original question posted two quotes of yours that appeared to strongly imply that you believe there will be blood-born Jews who live lives apart from God's Ways until the very end when they will somehow be saved anyway, despite their iniquities.

That is also not written.

Maybe I misunderstood your question. I was talking about Pre-trib's idea of tribulation saints, which they apply to unbelieving Jews converting to Christ 'during' the great trib. That is what is not written.

About their being saved after Christ's coming was written by Apostle Paul, not me. You'll find it starting at Romans 11:25 forward.


What many have a hard time accepting that Paul said there, is how God is going to remove the unbelieving Jew's blindness that HE put upon them. So can one whom God Himself blinded away from The Gospel be held accountable? Our Heavenly Father is not going to destroy any soul that He blinded away from The Gospel.

In Revelation 3:9 to the Church of Philadelphia, Jesus said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at the feet of His elect. That has never... happened to this day, and will not until after... His future return. It is one of the solid Scripture proofs of His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

Now if you struggle with Romans 11 as many do about the blindness God put upon the unbelieving Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles, let me know, and I'll try and help you through it, line upon line.

 

[Davy]

God is sovereign. I am well aware that Satan cannot do anything without His permission. Of course God allows evil to accomplish Hus purpose.
You keep arguing against the Pre-Trib view with me - I am not a Pre-Trib.
I am Mid-Trib/Pre-wrath. The 7th Trumpet is when the Rapture occurs.

Sorry, but a Mid-trib rapture theory is actually the same thing as a Pre-trib Rapture, just in disguise. It's divided up by men's doctrine a little different, using the Daniel "one week" idea of 7 years, the Mid point is represented by the middle of the 7 years. That Mid point is actually the 'start' time of the latter 1260 days, which is when the great tribulation is to begin.

The first 1260 day period is not the great tribulation. The latter 1260 day period is. Thusly, if you believe the rapture is at that Mid point, that actually means a rapture prior... to the start of the great trib, i.e., the latter 1260 day period. Same timing the Pre-trib Rapture theory pushes.

The rapture coincides with all these events that occur at the 7th Trumpet:
* The mystery of God is revealed (Rev. 10:7)
This mystery is hinted at in 1 Cor. 15:51-53 " Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep,but we will be changed, in a moment; in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ..."
* Christ appears.
* The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's.
* The dead are resurrected and judged also.
* We receive rewards according to our deeds.
* The Temple of God is open in Heaven.
* The Seven Bowls of God's wrath are released. So you see, the GT continues

No, that last event in bold with all the previous vials will be done by the time of the 7th Trumpet. God's Wrath on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial is a final wrath upon the wicked on the day of Christ's coming. I showed this emphatically from Scripture in my post #91.

What happens during the Seven Bowls?
* Could and loathsome sites affect all men. Certainly this takes time.
* The seas turns to blood and all life in the sea dies. More time.
* Rivers and Springs turn to blood.
* The sun scorched man with fire.
* Euphrates River dries up to allow forces from the east to cross and invade. (Armagedon)
* Great Earthquake shakes the entire planet, leveling mountains and islands and collapsing all buildings. One hundred pound hailstones fall.
God does not appoint the Church to this wrath. We do suffer through much, but not the Seven Bowls.

The final wrath on the last day, on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial, is the wrath of God that Paul said we are not appointed to. Makes sense too, since Jesus is coming to gather His Church on that day.

The previous 1 through 6 vials of God's wrath is only upon the wicked WHILE... we are still here on earth waiting for Christ's coming. Then the final vial, the 7th, is poured out into the "air", as written. That's symbolic for the END of this present world by God's consuming fire of 2 Peter 3:10. And it is when God's cup of wrath upon the wicked is poured out on the last day, which is when Jesus comes to do battle and punish the wicked. During the great tribulation just prior to that, the Church will be subject to Satan's wrath...

Rev 12:12-13
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
KJV

 

[Davy]

This is the parenthetical answer to this parenthetical question:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

If you are not ready at the 6th Seal, you will not be ready at the 7th Trumpet. Nor for anything that happens after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

If you reject that Christ is coming as a thief when most are not ready, why would those thoughts even be in God's Word?

I don't reject that Jesus comes "as a thief". Why would you suggest that? Instead, it seems you reject His warning of Revelation 16:15 that He said He comes "as a thief", and He said that within the 6th Vial timing, and showed His coming on the 7th Vial. The Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly teaches that Jesus instead comes prior... to those vials. It doesn't take an anvil to hit me on the head to know Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church on the last day of this world immediately after the great tribulation, just like He said (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Proclaiming that Christ could come at any time is the safest conclusion to be prepared for. Life will totally change at the moment of this Second Coming.

No, actually it is not the safest idea to hold. The Pre-trib Rapture theory is also called the "Any Moment" doctrine, because it preaches that Jesus could come at any moment. That's simply not true per God's Holy Writ. Jesus gave us the Signs of the very end to be watching leading up to His return. That's what His Olivet discourse is about.

Because there is to come first, a false-Messiah playing Him, in Jerusalem, and his purpose is to deceive the whole world by the miracles he is given to do, that... is why an 'any moment' theory for Christ's coming is VERY DANGEROUS! If you claim Jesus Christ as your Saviour, then you had best be watching the Signs He gave His Church leading up to His return, otherwise you won't recognize that false-Messiah that comes first, playing Him. This was actually what Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus" was about.

So at what point should be the real preparation for all parties involved?

The lost were not ready at the Second Coming. They will be prepared for Armageddon. The church will be prepared at the Second Coming, why will the church participate on earth at Armageddon?

The battle of Armageddon is not what many think. Christ's enemies on earth don't stand a chance. Haven't you read Ezekiel 38 and 39 about the destruction of the Gog-Magog armies on that day? On that day is when the change at the twinkling of an eye will happen, not just for the Church, but for all peoples still alive on earth. That's when Jesus is seen coming in the clouds, with the asleep saints He brings with Him, and then if we are still alive on earth, we are right then gathered to Him, and we all go to the Mount of Olives where His feet touch down upon, where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14. Then will begin His "thousand years" reign over all nations with the rod of iron. Those events are going to happen very quickly, at an instant suddenly per the OT prophets.

 

[GEN2REV]

What many have a hard time accepting that Paul said there, is how God is going to remove the unbelieving Jew's blindness that HE put upon them. So can one whom God Himself blinded away from The Gospel be held accountable? Our Heavenly Father is not going to destroy any soul that He blinded away from The Gospel.

Scripture also says it is the devil who blinds the eyes of men.
2 Corinthians 4:4

I have a hard time believing that the enemy blinds some and God blinds others. Just my opinion based on scripture as a whole.

Anybody who is blinded from the Truth will then, logically, live a life of sin. That doesn't make sense that God would cause people to disobey His Sacred Ways for centuries only to redeem them in the end. It just doesn't follow scripture at all.

Now if you struggle with Romans 11 as many do about the blindness God put upon the unbelieving Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles, let me know, and I'll try and help you through it, line upon line.

I've heard of it, read about it, etc. I guess it's hard for me to reconcile the concept with scripture like Ezekiel 18 and Romans 2 as well as many others.

If they are blinded, even if by God, they will, without a doubt, live in sin, commit wicked deeds and work iniquity.

The Bible repeatedly states that those who fall into that category will be judged, will be punished, in the end.

So how can that possibly work?

 

[GEN2REV]

@Davy

In Romans 11:7 Paul makes a distinction between Israel and the elect. To me, he is differentiating between those OF Israel who are deemed worthy and those who are not.

In Romans 11:10 he gives the strong impression that they will be blinded forever. KJV says alway (always).

Romans 11:20 says it is because of their unbelief that they were blinded, or broken off. Not that their inflicted blindness caused their unbelief.

Romans 11:21-23 says we must be careful or God will not spare us, just as he spared not the natural branches. Then says He will save them, and graft them back in, IF they live by His Ways.

Because of the distinction made in 11:7, Romans 11:26 appears to refer to a spiritual Israel that will be saved; or possibly only those who are worthy. (the elect)

Romans 11:31 seems to encourage gentiles to help convince unbelievers of the Truth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This is as flimsy an assumption as those who claim that Creation week SURELY lasted more than 6 literal days. Despite the fact that the Bible makes clear they were literal DAYS.

Your assumption that all the events within the Seven Bowls could happen in one day is absurd.

Based on zero scripture.

A 24-hour period is quite a long time for constant destruction to take place.

I listed the events that surround the 7th Trumpet and the Seven Bowls. I explained why the rapture would happened at the 7th Trumpet - all based on scripture.

100 Lb. hail stones could fall all over the world for a couple hours alone and absolutely devastate the majority of the infrastructure and kill 80% of the population. That leaves 22 hours of the rest of the literal WRATH OF GOD unlike anything ever recorded in history to judge the earth.

You are grasping and things, throwing numbers out without thought. If you were astute and familiar with the order of events in Revelation, you would see that the Four Horsemen bring death to 25% of the population alone. Then the Trumpets bring more death to another 1/3 of the population which makes that over half. We account for 1/3 and will be raptured. That leaves less than a billion alive when the Bowls are released.
So you picked one event that most likely would happen in one day or a few hours - 100lb. hailstones. What another bowl events other I listed?
Did you ever think about what could cause an event like that? God could certainly create them from nothing but He uses the physical universe, fire, water, drought, quakes, volcanic eruptions, wars, etc.
An asteroid crashimg intot the ocean would semd trillions of gallons of water into the upper atmosphere and freezing it and then coming back down as huge hailstones.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That's right, and a post-trib coming is the only timing written in God's Word for the return of our Lord Jesus to gather His Church, even by Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Your view.

The Pre-trib Rapture theorists have to manipulate and massage Bible Scripture to 'try' and make it point to Christ's coming prior to the trib to gather His Church.

I agree. Again, I am mot Pre-trib. Post -tribbers manipulate their view

Your Pre-trib Rapture preachers didn't explain the last verse in Luke 17 about 'where' the first ones taken are gathered to, did they? They just left that out, didn't they?

You must getting me mixed up with a Pre-tribber you are arguing with?

On the 6th Vial, at Revelation 16:15, Jesus is STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and to keep their garments unless they appear in shame.

Yes, that is a curious statement in the middle of the bowls, since of the Church was taken out at the 7th Trumpet. It is a message for the reader, not for the people on earth
at that time. Why? Because in verse 6, Jesus gives the entirw world blood to drink ( we are not here for this). In verse 9, it is apparent that no one repents and mankind blasphemes God. Verse 10, the Beast's kingdom is filled with darkness! Really how could the Church, the Light of the world be extinquished by darkness???
It can't! We are not on earth at thay time.

Where are you getting that "After those days" phrase? What verse are you pulling from with that phrase?

Matt. 24:29

That's why it is so easy to know that as long as wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, and famines are happening, that means the tribulation time is not yet.

You take these things lightly? I guess you don't consider starving, dying from a disease, bullets flying by you in a war or an earthquake that kills your family as stressful?
This pandemic (pestilence) has caused worldwide fear and has a grip on this world ushered in by the Antichrist himself. I think he isnthe rider on the white horse, whobwas given a crown (coronavirus), had a bow ( to inject us with it) amd went out to conquor, as it seem he has.
We are in the beginning of sorrows - which is part of the GT. The Red Horseman takes away peace from the world. A nuclear war in the Middle East will be next followed by famine and death.

The trib is going to be a time of world peace, for the deceived. That's why Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5 they will be saying, "Peace and safety".

Tribulation means opposite of peace. Those are just headlines from the fake news. The safety aspect will probably be when they try to force everyone to get vaccinated.

So it will NOT be a good thing to be the 1st one taken in the field, for that one is gathered by Satan.

I always interpreted the one taken is the elect. (Matt. 24:31)

Yet how amazing... it is that so many duped people will listen to pop doctrines of men with all sorts of window dressing, movies, books, etc., instead of going into God's written Word for themselves to find out the Truth.

Simply amazes me too.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Modern mainstream Church-ianity teaches (relentlessly) that the 144,000 will all be men and Jewish.
I don't believe the Bible teaches this at all.

You're right, The Scripture in Revelation 7 does not specifically say they have to be men.

"They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb."
REV. 14:3-4

 

[Davy]

Why would saved people go through this if no one can get saved? What is the point, to get people unsaved, by not having their head chopped off? All you get is a headless bride.

No one is going to accept God. God is going to accept them. Those who have their heads chopped off do so by faith, not knowing the outcome, unless they all read Revelation as written, and not how it is being taught today.

Who teaches people to reject Christ so they can get their heads chopped off when the time comes? The church is gone at the 6th Seal after the tribulation of those days, the first 4 Seals where 2 billion people are killed.

The reason why Christ's Church will go through the great tribulation is so as to make a stand... in Christ against the beast. Haven't you ever read the Revelation 11 chapter about what God's two witnesses do during that time? It is going to be a time of 'spiritual' warfare, and Jesus is looking for spiritually strong and faithful Christian soldiers to make a stand for Him. He doesn't want us to be coward weaklings and run.

Eph 6:13-17
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
KJV

(This reminds me of a Church sermon I heard covering that Ephesians 6 Scripture. The sermon was by a retired pastor, and when he got to that "evil day", he said, "Now we don't know what this evil day is...". I wanted to stand up and wave my hand! It's easy to know what day Paul was talking about, because Paul well knew about the great tribulation for the end of this world, and what those in Christ are supposed to be doing to make a stand through it.)