Understanding The 144,000

[JohnPaul]

I think it is the other way around. The Second Coming is before the GT. The body of Christ does not go through the GT. Jesus Christ and His 144k disciples go through the GT. It is called the final harvest. It is not a harvest into the body of Christ. It is the firstfruits harvest for the Millennial reign. The church is in Paradise. Those Coming out of the GT inherit the earth.

What is GT?

 

[Timtofly]

What is GT?

What most claim is the last half of the Tribulation. It is the second half of the Seals, known as the 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders.

The GT is between the 7th Seal and the 7th Trumpet. The period of the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

 

[JohnPaul]

What most claim is the last half of the Tribulation. It is the second half of the Seals, known as the 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders.

The GT is between the 7th Seal and the 7th Trumpet. The period of the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

Thank you for explaining Timtofly.

 

[Marty fox]

Put the lists together and you can see, no?

Joseph wanted Mannasseh, but Jacob chose Ephraim. The 11 disciples chose Matthias by lots, but God chose Paul.

No I don't see

Paul was never a disciple and either was Judas really thats why there is only 12 gates and 12 foundations in the new Jerusalem

 

[GEN2REV]

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."

Are you saying the Bible is hinting that some are women who cannot be defiled by women?

Fair point.

Looks like they will all have to be men. I don't believe they are all specifically Jewish, though, and that was the main point of the comment.

 

[GEN2REV]

The Second Coming is before the GT. The body of Christ does not go through the GT.

So ... the Last Day of the world comes prior to the last 7 (or 3.5) years of the Great Tribulation then?

How does that work?

 

[Marty fox]

Fair point.

Looks like they will all have to be men. I don't believe they are all specifically Jewish, though, and that was the main point of the comment.

Women can defile themselves with women too the bible doesn’t say that they are men because they are not. Being virgins is about the church being pure.

We the church are the bride of the Lamb but that doesn’t mean that we are all women.

 

[nenagana]

Understanding The 144,000 (A Simple Mind, Sometimes this is Godliness)

(Statement) (This is Heresy)

EZEKIEL 48:35 [It was] round about eighteen thousand [measures]: and the name of the city from [that] day [shall be], The LORD [is] there.
I KINGS 7:15 For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece: and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about.
I KINGS 7:16 And he made two chapiters [of] molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars: the height of the one chapiter [was] five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter [was] five cubits:
I KINGS 7:17 [And] nets of checker work, and wreaths of chain work, for the chapiters which [were] upon the top of the pillars; seven for the one chapiter, and seven for the other chapiter.
I KINGS 7:18 And he made the pillars, and two rows round about upon the one network, to cover the chapiters that [were] upon the top, with pomegranates: and so did he for the other chapiter.
I KINGS 7:19 And the chapiters that [were] upon the top of the pillars [were] of lily work in the porch, four cubits.
I KINGS 7:20 And the chapiters upon the two pillars [had pomegranates] also above, over against the belly which [was] by the network: and the pomegranates [were] two hundred in rows round about upon the other chapiter.
I KINGS 7:21 And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz.
I KINGS 7:22 And upon the top of the pillars [was] lily work: so was the work of the pillars finished.
I KINGS 7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: [it was] round all about, and his height [was] five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Ezekiel's Temple is Spiritual........but God did not Add Detail Concerning the Tribes in Ezekiel with a Unified Value until the Revelation............HOWEVER, Solomon in taking the first Act to destroy the Temple, before it Fell to Babylon, Added his own detail, and it meant little to nothing.

(Statement ? Continue)

(The Ark of the Covenant First had Purple and Blue........then God clarified that and Said the First Ark of the Covenant had Purple and Blue for Aaron's Sake)
EXODUS 28:4 And these [are] the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
EXODUS 28:8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which [is] upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; [even of] gold, [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.

(Then God talks about how he removed Aaron and the Priesthood, or that there was no Priesthood........and God talks about BLUE AND GOLD (not purple blue and gold)
EXODUS 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate [of] pure gold, and grave upon it, [like] the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
EXODUS 28:37 And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.

(Like We said, Solomon Performed a Work that the Lord God intended to Later on clarify with the tribes and the revelation, providing more detail then was provided in ezekiel.............and what is why Solomon's Work was not counted as faithfully) (This is also true for the Ark of the Covenant, How God allowed Aaron to Serve and the Priesthood, but God would no longer use the Priesthood in the New Testament)
..............
..............
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This issue of the Ark of the Covenant and the "Purple Blue Gold", to only the, "Blue and Gold" what this means is.................

Lets say for Example, in Fatima Prophecy 1917, and that was 144 years to Humanities Death in 2061............God showed a Black Sun (or a Purple and Blue Sun)....................THEN, sometime before humanities death.................God may show a BLUE SUN like the HOPPI PROPHECY CLAIMS, this is also based on god's statement that we've said about the ark of covenant's transition in design.

It will be at this Time:
(Statement)

DANIEL 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.
DANIEL 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
DANIEL 10:6 His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
HEBREWS 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw [he was] a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. (Hebrews 11 talks about
HEBREWS 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Moses took Joseph's Bones.............this talks about "Moses seeing the Invisible King Jesus", if this is a prophecy, its usually stated at least twice............it seems that daniel appears to speak of this event.................it is at this time according to Jesus that he said, "moses would be for the divorce of the Jewish Peoples (Matthew 19:7)".............so when Jesus Rises or Ascends out of Jerusalem or the New Spirit Arises, then Moses also arives at his 40th Year, which is also 39 years from halley's comet according to Ezekiel 4:5-6..............so Daniel was speaking about when the lightening would speak that in the revelation John said, he was not the person to announce the messiah the prince or the new spirit, that seems to identify with Moses.

(it is at this time, most of the Jewish people in jerusalem should die, and many people should die based on the earth's field activity, and it is at that time, the many neighbors of isreal, will overtake it, perhaps) (or perhaps according ot Zechariah 14)

 

[Davy]

I have no interest in men's traditions. But the Bible equates nations with Gentiles as noted below:

Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. (Isaiah 9:1)

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles (Mt 4:14,15)

Matthew by divine inspiration quotes almost the exact words from Isaiah, and the Holy Spirit equates nations with Gentiles.

None of that explains the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations", and Genesis 35 that Jacob's seed was to become "a company of nations."

 

[Davy]

Well, your train just completely jumped track, brother.

I was with you 'til this 'out-of-left-field' post.

I challenge you to search every single post I've ever made here for a single statement anywhere that supports Pre-Trib Rapture.

If you don't believe in man's Pre-trib Rapture theory, good.

But the idea of 'tribulation saints' is exactly... what you were describing. And that's one of their... ideas, because they have to try and account for Scripture that clearly shows there's believers on Jesus going through the great tribulation. They claim that's about the unbelieving Jews at the start of the trib, but then later convert to Christ during. That is not written.

 

[Davy]

"After the tribulation of those days" doesn't mean after the entire GT.

Well, sorry, but yes it does mean literally... after... the great tribulation. Lord Jesus made that very plain in His Olivet discourse that that is when He comes to gather His saints. He also made that plain with a warning on the 6th vial in Revelation 16, telling the Church to keep their garments, as He said he comes "as a thief". That "as a thief" is a direct reference to 1 Thess.5 by Paul and 2 Peter 3:10 about the "day of the Lord", which is the very LAST DAY of this present world. That day is when the great trib will end, because it is the day of Christ's return to this earth and reign over all nations.

 

[Davy]

I don't agree with the Pre-Trib rapture for many reasons, but I would not say it is from the Devil.

I have no problem saying it's from the devil. It's a setup by another spirit, and that's exactly what John Darby discovered in 1830's Britain when he attended the Edward Irving Church (Irvingite movement). Darby later questioned the manifestations going on there. Yet he continued to push the Pre-trib Rapture he got from that movement. Cyrus Scofield pushed it in the U.S., and he hung out with New York bankers and lawyers, in one of their clubs. He got in trouble for stealing monies from one of his relatives, served jail time. And yet one of the most popular study Bibles was put out by him. The whole movement has charlatanism all over it. And our Heavenly Father in Ezekiel 13 showed that He is against the pre-trib 'fly away' doctrine.

 

[Davy]

Satan's career has been to keep people away from Jesus, creating all sorts of religions, philosophies and atheism. He dies not want people to have faith about anything in the Bible and wants us to stay away. Of course if we are confirmed Christians, he will try to trip us up, distort things, cause confusion and doubts. He'll insert tares aming the wheat. But we are saved - no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand! OSAS. He wants to cause division among us and has to some extant. But for Satan to promote a doctrine that gives hope and faith that Jesus will return, resurrect us, destroy evil and lock him away for a thousand years would be working against himself. Even Jesus said that acts of Satan against Satan would be destructive for him. "A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand."
And so, be cautious with your words. Respected theologians hold to this doctrine. The fact that there are many end time views means that there is a mystery about it. It is not iron clad. It is not an essential doctrine as to the order of events that take place. What is important is that Jesus will return in judgment and we will be resurrected someday - likely soon.

I am cautious, and I'm very serious with what I say. That's why many here have a hard time understanding me, because I don't play Churchianity. You apparently don't understand that our Heavenly Father showed in His prophets that He is 'using'... Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious. The confusion that Satan causes is 'allowed' by God. Have you not read Judges 2 and Judges 3 where God was angry with Israel for not destroying the specific Canaanite nations He commanded Israel to literally wipe out? Because they disobeyed Him, He said He would leave those Canaanites among Israel, to try Israel with, to see if they would follow Him, or not.

Thus God allows... Satan to deceive us, IF... WE... allow it. How's that? It happens when WE listen and heed man instead of our Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word. It's that... simple! So the many doctrines out there by so-called respected theologians really doesn't mean squat IF it is contrary to God's Holy Writ. But how can we know that? By listening to God... in His Word first. Then use God's Word as the Measure of man's words. It's simple.

No. Everyone whonis written in the Book of Life is destined to be saved. GOD's plan for all will be a accomplished. Those who take the mark of the Beast were never intended to be saved and many will, likely iver half the population of the planet. Gid wil guide each and every one to respond accordingly. This is how the future is written. God is sovereign. Otherwise prophecy would not be fulfilled perfectly.

It ain't over until it's over. Not everyone is ordained to hear and believe The Gospel during this present world. An example is the unbelieving Jews which God blinded away from The Gospel that Paul showed in Romans 11. Their time of hear The Gospel with that blindness removed will be for after Christ's future return. So preachers that try to preach to be saved one must believe only during this present world go against God's Holy Writ. Not everyone is going to 'hear' The Gospel during this world. That's why there will be a future literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect with the "rod of iron."

No, gradually, when they realize that the GT is here and so are they, they will abandon that view - a light will go on. God enlightens all of us of our errors at different times in our lives - doesn't He?
Likewise, if post-tribbers find that they are raptured before the end of the GT - won't they be pleased too?

Keep studying, because what you've been taught about the great tribulation isn't what God's Word is showing about that time.

Matt 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
KJV

Pre-trib wrongly teaches those events happen during... the great trib. They even use those things as a fear tactic.

But Lord Jesus showed there those things happen prior... the great trib, in a time He called "the beginning of sorrows".

We can easily know this by His saying when the wars and rumors of war are happening, the 'end is not yet'. By that "end" He means the time of great trib, the very end of this world just prior to His return.

So what kind of time is the opposite of wars and rumors of war? It's a time of world peace.

That... is what the great trib is going to be like, a time of world peace when all wars have stopped. The reason is because the pseudo-Christ will have arrived and will deceive the whole world into believing on him in place of God. That will be the time of "strong delusion" Paul warned of.

God's two witnesses that appear in Jerusalem during that time will war with the beast and his one world kingdom, spiritually, per Rev.11. It will be similar to the time of Moses and Aaron in Egypt with the plagues. And when their 1260 days of prophesying against the beast is done, the beast king will kill them, and leave their dead bodies laying the plaza in Jerusalem.

The nations seeing their dead bodies will rejoice that they are dead, and will give gifts to each other, like throwing a big party (this per Rev.11).

Even in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul showed how the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time.

Thus many don't understand what the great trib is really about. It is about false worship to the first supernatural Messiah that comes saying He is Christ, and working the great signs and miracles to deceive, as written. For the deceived, it'll be a chicken in every pot, all their debts paid off, etc.

 

[Timtofly]

No I don't see

Paul was never a disciple and either was Judas really thats why there is only 12 gates and 12 foundations in the new Jerusalem

Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ. That was the point. Humans do not have a say in whom God knows are the 12.

 

[Timtofly]

So ... the Last Day of the world comes prior to the last 7 (or 3.5) years of the Great Tribulation then?

How does that work?

What verse claims a last day?

The Day of the Lord is the last 1000 year reign of Christ. God brings to a close in the final harvest the reign of sin. That part (the final harvest) is great trouble, because spiritual blindness will be removed, and all humanity will see the battle between Satan and God. Christ comes to remove the works of wickedness in fire and judgment. Not just at Armageddon, which is the clean up of Satan's 42 months. The 6th Seal brings the day of reckoning. The Trumpets and the Thunders are Christ on earth, just like the time spent the first time between the baptism and the Cross. It will be trouble for the Jews. It will be punishment for those who have rejected the truth of God's Word. But none of Adam's flesh and blood survive this time. All will have to shed this corruptible flesh. Many souls will end up in Death, seen at the 4th Seal. Many souls will be resurrected per Revelation 20:4 to live on the earth for the 1000 year reign, known as the Day of the Lord. The resurrection will give those humans a permanent incorruptible physical body. Sin will be no more. But Death will be the result of disobedience to the iron rod reign of Christ. Humans will be born during these 1000 years. More than we know today, where sin and decay destroys life.

 

[Timtofly]

Women can defile themselves with women too the bible doesn’t say that they are men because they are not. Being virgins is about the church being pure.

We the church are the bride of the Lamb but that doesn’t mean that we are all women.

The 12 disciples were literally not the bride of Christ. Neither are the 144k. The sheep would be the Israelite bride of Christ. The church leaves at the 6th Seal. They are those in Revelation 7:9-17. The 144k are sealed on the earth. The church is glorified in Paradise, the heavenly temple. These 144k are the tribulation disciples. They are the firstfruits to live on earth during the Millennium Kingdom.

The 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the body of Christ in the NT, along with the OT church in Abraham's bosom. They entered Paradise, and are not of this earth. A totally different firstfruits. Revelation is about the Second Coming of Christ on earth, and that earthly kingdom. Only the last 2 chapters brings Paradise down as the New Jerusalem. "We" have to get through the Day of the Lord on earth, before we have the NHNE.

 

[Timtofly]

If you don't believe in man's Pre-trib Rapture theory, good.

But the idea of 'tribulation saints' is exactly... what you were describing. And that's one of their... ideas, because they have to try and account for Scripture that clearly shows there's believers on Jesus going through the great tribulation. They claim that's about the unbelieving Jews at the start of the trib, but then later convert to Christ during. That is not written.

Why would saved people go through this if no one can get saved? What is the point, to get people unsaved, by not having their head chopped off? All you get is a headless bride.

No one is going to accept God. God is going to accept them. Those who have their heads chopped off do so by faith, not knowing the outcome, unless they all read Revelation as written, and not how it is being taught today.

Who teaches people to reject Christ so they can get their heads chopped off when the time comes? The church is gone at the 6th Seal after the tribulation of those days, the first 4 Seals where 2 billion people are killed.

 

[Truman]

The problem with what you don't know is that you don't know what you don't know...until you know...and then you know.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Well, sorry, but yes it does mean literally... after... the great tribulation. Lord Jesus made that very plain in His Olivet discourse that that is when He comes to gather His saints. He also made that plain with a warning on the 6th vial in Revelation 16, telling the Church to keep their garments, as He said he comes "as a thief". That "as a thief" is a direct reference to 1 Thess.5 by Paul and 2 Peter 3:10 about the "day of the Lord", which is the very LAST DAY of this present world. That day is when the great trib will end, because it is the day of Christ's return to this earth and reign over all nations.

That is the Post-Trib view, that the rapture occurs on the last day of the GT.
So if as you say, He comes on the last day and takes one and leaves another. What happens to the one left? No suffering, no wrath? What? He just comes on the last day and destroys them? What about Armageddon, when the nations gather and war against Jesus, doesn't that happen AFTER HE ARRIVES?
"After those days" means what He discussed that would happen prior to His coming: Wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, famine, earthquakes, etc.,which He described as the BEGINNING OF SORROWS.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
>So according to you, the rapture occurs and every eye that sees Him mourns, runs and hides in the caves ... but only for moments because it's over? His Seven Bowls of wrath that is poured out only lasts till the end of the day?
The Church is taken out at the 7th Trumpet, then the Seven Bowls of wrath are released on the ungodly. The Church is not appointed to wrath, this we do go through part of the GT. Armageddon and His wrath may only last forty days, but certainly more than one.

" But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
>> This passage correlates to the order of events. People apparently aren't suffering much until the day the flood came.,But the flood was His wrath that lasted forty days.
So shall it be (the world's condition, state and order of events) with the coming of Jesus. He comes in judgment, brings wrath and I am absolutely certain His wrath lasts longer than one day!

 

[GEN2REV]

If you don't believe in man's Pre-trib Rapture theory, good.

But the idea of 'tribulation saints' is exactly... what you were describing. And that's one of their... ideas, because they have to try and account for Scripture that clearly shows there's believers on Jesus going through the great tribulation. They claim that's about the unbelieving Jews at the start of the trib, but then later convert to Christ during. That is not written.

I believe True Bible-believing Christians will go through all of the Tribulation, at least those who survive the entirety of it.

But you're still not answering my question. I'm not exactly sure why.

The original question posted two quotes of yours that appeared to strongly imply that you believe there will be blood-born Jews who live lives apart from God's Ways until the very end when they will somehow be saved anyway, despite their iniquities.

That is also not written.