Understanding The Flow of Our Lord's Book of Revelation

[rand]

If you read the first three chapters of Revelation, There are many Churches that go thru the tribulation. One (Philidephia) does not. No one knows for sure, but if you ask me, this wrath that has fallen on 'all the inhabitant of the earth' means no one is excluded. Post trib believers seem to think they will be excluded from wrath during the tribulation. is that true? It doesn't say that in Revelation that I've seen. One of the main reasons I believe in pre-trib is because Jesus said that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church and Satan and his army are prevailing against those going thru the tribulation. Paul seemed to think the catching away of the church could happen at any time and the people he led seemed to have believed they had missed it at one point.

I believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I don't know for sure. I really don't think anyone but God the Father knows, maybe Jesus and the Holy Spirit know, now, too. But I'm not sure. I think there are good arguments for both sides and if God has chosen to not make it perfectly clear to us, I'm sure that His reason for doing so is not so we would fight and devide over it. I guess the point is: Just always be ready.

 

[revturmoil]

Last means last eh?

So NO other day can come after it - or it wouldn't be last.

Do you really want to go there mister I have completely misappropriated Habakkuk 1:9 and made it say something it doesn't say?

In Revelation chapters 13-16, the last day happens before the Bowl Judgments.

You're going to believe what you want anyway. After all, since when do Christian's have the virtue of admitting they make mistakes!

 

[teleiosis]

Well you certainly can't nor can you argue in a gentlemanly or Christian manner.

You cannot admit to how you have totally turned around Hab 1:9 from something that foretold the Bablyonians' invasion of Israel which would lead to Israel being exiled for 70 years and have made it falsely into some new, false prophecy which leads you to say something the Bible never says: that Islam wil dominate the world.

Tell me, if the last day must be last, then no other day can come after it! Do you want to go there Mister I have a dictionary?
- So what is the last day, the last of?
= When Christ comes He will gather up the Church. The Last Day is the last day of the Church Age; it is the last chance to be saved by faith.

 

[Trekson]

Kaotic, I'm a little confused. Your words:"The last day is the time period at the end of tribulation that it takes our Lord to accomplish the removal of the elect, judgment and reward of the righteous, judgment of the nations, the separation of the sheep and goats, to do battle, and the marriage supper of the Lamb...and maybe a few other things. If the author's of God's Word wanted to imply anything other than the last days of the age they would have used another word for last other than the last day He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

This is the same thing that teleosis is saying. Vet is implying all this will occur in one single solitary 24. hr. day. Teleosis, says no, it will start with the 6th seal rapture and extend to roughly the first 75 days of the millennium. So what timeline are you thinking? Three days, four, a week, a month, etc?

You did some research regarding "last" but how about the word "day". Some of the defs. in Strong's G2250 is a period, age, time, while, years, as well as the time between sunrise and dusk, depending on the context. So just using the word "last" does not back up your conclusions.

Vet, the last paragraph can apply to our discussion as well.

 

[revturmoil]

Kaotic, I'm a little confused. Your words:"The last day is the time period at the end of tribulation that it takes our Lord to accomplish the removal of the elect, judgment and reward of the righteous, judgment of the nations, the separation of the sheep and goats, to do battle, and the marriage supper of the Lamb...and maybe a few other things. If the author's of God's Word wanted to imply anything other than the last days of the age they would have used another word for last other than the last day He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

This is the same thing that teleosis is saying. Vet is implying all this will occur in one single solitary 24. hr. day. Teleosis, says no, it will start with the 6th seal rapture and extend to roughly the first 75 days of the millennium. So what timeline are you thinking? Three days, four, a week, a month, etc?

You did some research regarding "last" but how about the word "day". Some of the defs. in Strong's G2250 is a period, age, time, while, years, as well as the time between sunrise and dusk, depending on the context. So just using the word "last" does not back up your conclusions.

Vet, the last paragraph can apply to our discussion as well.

That's not what Tele is saying.

THE WORD ESCHATOS MEANS THE EXTREME LAST. In another thread he say's the last trump isn't the last trump because of his pre-wrath position. The last day does not start at the sixth seal. I don't believe the last day is a 24 hr period but it culminates at the end of the last day of the age. So none of us are saying the same thing. You have no reason to be confused.

 

[Trekson]

Hi kaotic, I agree with teleosis that the 7th trump isn't the last trump of 1 Cor. 15. We believe the "last trump" is blown by God, not an angel to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 9:14 - "And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south."

That the signs of the sixth seal parallel the OT accounts of how the day of the Lord begins isn't really questionable, it's pretty obvious.

As it is highly doubtful that Paul was aware of the 7 trumpet judgments revealed to John several years later, after he wrote 1 Corinthians, there is no scriptural reason to conclude otherwise.

 

[revturmoil]

Hi kaotic, I agree with teleosis that the 7th trump isn't the last trump of 1 Cor. 15. We believe the "last trump" is blown by God, not an angel to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 9:14 - "And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south."

That the signs of the sixth seal parallel the OT accounts of how the day of the Lord begins isn't really questionable, it's pretty obvious.

As it is highly doubtful that Paul was aware of the 7 trumpet judgments revealed to John several years later, after he wrote 1 Corinthians, there is no scriptural reason to conclude otherwise.

Well all I can say is that I completely disagree with your fabrications. You do it to fit your theology! You guys are fabricationist!

So there's a contradiction in God's Word then. The rapture occurs at the last trump , which you guys say isn't the last trump. And it is also said to occur with the trump of God. The trump of God doesn't mean God sounds the trumpet.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

How do you associate God sounding a trumpet to send Zion into battle with a pre-wrath rapture? The idea of God sounding a trumpet in Zech. 14 is that God leads the battle! You are taking Zech 9:14 out of context as it has nothing to do with a rapture but all to do with a battle....regardless of what battle you may believe it is. And it's clear in the text who does the fighting: The Lord their God will save them in that day. This is God’s battle, not a battle of men. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the last trump or the trump of God! You are a fabricationist....one who alters the Word of God to fit their personal theology!

Zechariah 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.

And this quote...

That the signs of the sixth seal parallel the OT accounts of how the day of the Lord begins isn't really questionable, it's pretty obvious.

All I can say is that I'm spending too much time debunking your fabricated theories.

What is it about this...

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

...that tells you a rapture takes place???

 

[Trekson]

My theology doesn't need to have anything "change" to 'fit it". After decades of study, Pre-wrath is the most logical, scriptural view based on "all" the scriptures of what has been revealed up to this time. It flows smoothly with no cramming or changing of scripture and makes absolute perfect sense once one understands the big picture and how all the little pieces "fit". It satisfies me and it's what I've been shown by the HS. All I do is share it, whether anyone agrees or not is irrelevant. I've done what God wants me to do as a watchman, imo.

 

[revturmoil]

My theology doesn't need to have anything "change" to 'fit it".

You, and the pre-wrath theory, have changed a host of things. The one we are dealing with mostly here is you saying "the last trump isn't the last trump".
You take Zech.14 out of context to try to prove a failed belief. The 6th seal indicates that it's unbelievers that say, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" That's their perspective anyway. But I'll ask you again, "what is it that indicates a rapture in the sixth seal?"

After decades of study,

And you're still misled. Your theory not only changes the meaning of the last trump and trump of God but also changes the timing of the Day of the Lord!

Pre-wrath is the most logical, scriptural view based on "all" the scriptures of what has been revealed up to this time.

The most logical is the less complicated view i.e. at the end of tribulation. There's no logic in fabrications.

It flows smoothly with no cramming or changing of scripture and makes absolute perfect sense once one understands the big picture and how all the little pieces "fit". It satisfies me and it's what I've been shown by the HS. All I do is share it, whether anyone agrees or not is irrelevant. I've done what God wants me to do as a watchman, imo.

It's not flowing too smoothly here is it! No changing of scripture??? You change the meaning of the last trump and the trump of God and say the Day of the Lord begins at the 6TH seal! And change the timing of the rapture! Like I said, "you are very misled!"

If it fits so smoothly why is it that Jesus said in Mathew 24:29-31 that the gathering would occur at the end of tribulation! Yet you say it occurs at the 6th seal!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Kaotic, I’m beginning to understand your profile name. You see chaos in everything, however, I can answer all your questions but it will be a lengthy post.

Your words: So there's a contradiction in God's Word then. The rapture occurs at the last trump , which you guys say isn't the last trump. And it is also said to occur with the trump of God. The trump of God doesn't mean God sounds the trumpet.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
:
You are assuming that the 7[sup]th[/sup] trump of Rev. is in the same category as the “last” trump of 1 Cor. 15. There is no scriptural verification for that, it’s solely your opinion that they are the same. I believe the last trump of 1 Cor. 15 is associated with the “Feast of Trumpets”.
“The Feast of Trumpets - aka Rosh Hashanah or "Head of the Year". This holiday is celebrated on the 1st & 2nd of Tishri, the religious 7th month and the first month of their "civil" new year. It is celebrated alongside Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. The interval between the last of the spring feasts - Pentecost and the first of the fall feasts - Trumpets corresponds to this present age. Pentecost began the Church age and Trumpets, which will signal the Messiah‘s Second Coming will end it.

The blowing of the trumpet in ancient Israel had three primary functions. The first was to call a solemn assembly, the second, when Israel under Divine direction was to go to war and the third was at the coronation of a new king. There are two major themes associated with The Day of the Lord. The first is deliverance of the righteous and the second is the judgment of the wicked. In connection with His Second Coming, Jesus will first call His own to Himself, (the Rapture), and then will go to war against His enemies, (Armageddon) concluding with His Coronation as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”
(info from Rosenthal’s book, The Feasts of Israel)



Your words: How do you associate God sounding a trumpet to send Zion into battle with a pre-wrath rapture? The idea of God sounding a trumpet in Zech. 14 is that God leads the battle! You are taking
Zech 9:14 out of context as it has nothing to do with a rapture but all to do with a battle....regardless of what battle you may believe it is. And it's clear in the text who does the fighting: The Lord their God will save them in that day. This is God’s battle, not a battle of men. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the last trump or the trump of God!

Zechariah 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.

Within the context starting with Zech. 9:10, this whole passage is about the 2[sup]nd[/sup] coming and the battle of Armageddon, both components of the “Day of the Lord”, which, imo, is a multi-year, multi-themed event, extending even until the end of the millennium.

Your words: What is it about this...

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

...that tells you a rapture takes place???

Christians aren’t appointed to wrath. These are the signs that the “Day of the Lord” is about to begin. The Day of the Lord is all about wrath and judgment and we believe we will be raptured before that begins at the 7[sup]th[/sup] seal. The 6[sup]th[/sup] seal is just the last sign. Here are some scriptures for verification.

Luke 21:25-28 - “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, (starting with the events of vs. 25) then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption (imo, via rapture) draweth nigh.”

　
Joel 2:9-10 - “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it.”

Matt. 24:29 - “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

　
Your words: “If it fits so smoothly why is it that Jesus said in Mathew 24:29-31 that the gathering would occur at the end of tribulation! Yet you say it occurs at the 6th seal!”

It is a mistake to assume "after the trib" means at the end of the 70th week. To understand this we need to go to the context of vs. 21. Matt. 24:15&21 - “15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand…)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

In scripture there is no 7 yr. or 3.5 yr. trib period prophesied. There is only the great trib which we believe is satan’s wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17 and it begins at the mid-point of Daniel’s 70[sup]th[/sup] week and ends at the 7[sup]th[/sup] seal rapture. Rev. 7:14 - “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The rapture, imo, is what ends the great trib and in our theology it will occur after the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal. After that it is judgment and wrath upon the earth. No confusion, no fabrication, just our way of interpreting scripture (correctly, imho).

 

[revturmoil]

Hi Kaotic, I’m beginning to understand your profile name. You see chaos in everything, however, I can answer all your questions but it will be a lengthy post.

Your words: So there's a contradiction in God's Word then. The rapture occurs at the last trump , which you guys say isn't the last trump. And it is also said to occur with the trump of God. The trump of God doesn't mean God sounds the trumpet.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
:
You are assuming that the 7[sup]th[/sup] trump of Rev. is in the same category as the “last” trump of 1 Cor. 15. There is no scriptural verification for that, it’s solely your opinion that they are the same. I believe the last trump of 1 Cor. 15 is associated with the “Feast of Trumpets”.
“The Feast of Trumpets - aka Rosh Hashanah or "Head of the Year". This holiday is celebrated on the 1st & 2nd of Tishri, the religious 7th month and the first month of their "civil" new year. It is celebrated alongside Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. The interval between the last of the spring feasts - Pentecost and the first of the fall feasts - Trumpets corresponds to this present age. Pentecost began the Church age and Trumpets, which will signal the Messiah‘s Second Coming will end it.

The blowing of the trumpet in ancient Israel had three primary functions. The first was to call a solemn assembly, the second, when Israel under Divine direction was to go to war and the third was at the coronation of a new king. There are two major themes associated with The Day of the Lord. The first is deliverance of the righteous and the second is the judgment of the wicked. In connection with His Second Coming, Jesus will first call His own to Himself, (the Rapture), and then will go to war against His enemies, (Armageddon) concluding with His Coronation as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”
(info from Rosenthal’s book, The Feasts of Israel)



Your words: How do you associate God sounding a trumpet to send Zion into battle with a pre-wrath rapture? The idea of God sounding a trumpet in Zech. 14 is that God leads the battle! You are taking
Zech 9:14 out of context as it has nothing to do with a rapture but all to do with a battle....regardless of what battle you may believe it is. And it's clear in the text who does the fighting: The Lord their God will save them in that day. This is God’s battle, not a battle of men. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the last trump or the trump of God!

Zechariah 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.

Within the context starting with Zech. 9:10, this whole passage is about the 2[sup]nd[/sup] coming and the battle of Armageddon, both components of the “Day of the Lord”, which, imo, is a multi-year, multi-themed event, extending even until the end of the millennium.

Your words: What is it about this...

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

...that tells you a rapture takes place???

Christians aren’t appointed to wrath. These are the signs that the “Day of the Lord” is about to begin. The Day of the Lord is all about wrath and judgment and we believe we will be raptured before that begins at the 7[sup]th[/sup] seal. The 6[sup]th[/sup] seal is just the last sign. Here are some scriptures for verification.

Luke 21:25-28 - “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, (starting with the events of vs. 25) then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption (imo, via rapture) draweth nigh.”

　
Joel 2:9-10 - “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it.”

Matt. 24:29 - “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

　
Your words: “If it fits so smoothly why is it that Jesus said in Mathew 24:29-31 that the gathering would occur at the end of tribulation! Yet you say it occurs at the 6th seal!”

It is a mistake to assume "after the trib" means at the end of the 70th week. To understand this we need to go to the context of vs. 21. Matt. 24:15&21 - “15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand…)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

In scripture there is no 7 yr. or 3.5 yr. trib period prophesied. There is only the great trib which we believe is satan’s wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17 and it begins at the mid-point of Daniel’s 70[sup]th[/sup] week and ends at the 7[sup]th[/sup] seal rapture. Rev. 7:14 - “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The rapture, imo, is what ends the great trib and in our theology it will occur after the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal. After that it is judgment and wrath upon the earth. No confusion, no fabrication, just our way of interpreting scripture (correctly, imho).

Hey if you complicated things any more you would be on the 5th floor!

Christian's aren't appointed to wrath??? That's true. But that doesn't mean that it's averted by a rapture! The Word say's it's averted by Christ through repentance...i.e.salvation!

 

[Trekson]

Kaotic, Your words: "Christian's aren't appointed to wrath??? That's true. But that doesn't mean that it's averted by a rapture! The Word say's it's averted by Christ through repentance...i.e.salvation."

It's only complicated to you, not to pre-wrath adherents.



Within the context of 1 Thess. 5:1-9 - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[sup]2 [/sup]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[sup]3 [/sup]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[sup]4 [/sup]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[sup]5 [/sup]Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[sup]6 [/sup]Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[sup]7 [/sup]For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[sup]8 [/sup]But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
[sup]9 [/sup]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

It's pretty plain that the "wrath" is associated with the Day of the Lord! One must be "saved" in order to be raptured.

 

[revturmoil]

I must say that the devil must have his hands in the mix for Christian's to oppose the words of Jesus.
Jesus said,
Immediately after the tribulation of those days... then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 　And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You said,

You are assuming that the 7th trump of Rev. is in the same category as the "last" trump of 1 Cor. 15. There is no scriptural verification for that,

Let's see....No scriptural verification...
The last trump...there are seven trumpets...seems to me the last one is the 7th one! Logic and simplicity is better than fabrication. But you have changed , fabricated, and complicated a bunch of stuff just like the pre-tribbers have to fit your theology.

1 Corinthians 15:52 　In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 　For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 　So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
At the last trump we have a rapture where this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, and Death is swallowed up in victory. You say the wrath of God comes at the sixth seal. Do you see any of this mentioned in the sixth seal? In 1 Cor 15:52 it is mentioned and similar to the 7th trumpet in Rev. 14. as you'll see later.

The last trump is sounded in Rev. 11:15 and the 24 elders of verse 18 say that "thy wrath has come". You chose to believe that God's wrath comes in the sixth seal. So is there a biblical contradiction? In the 6th seal it's not the 24 elders who claim that God's wrath has come it's the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev. 6:16 　And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 　For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Those people don't sound like Christian's. They presume that God's wrath has come and that's their perception.
Why would Christian's ask for the mountains to fall on them? I believe the 24 elders that the wrath of God comes at the 7th trumpet over the heathen of Revelation 6 where there is no trumpet! In Rev. 11. i.e. the 7th and last trumpet, it is said that God's wrath is come and the dead are judged and the prophets, servants, and saints get their reward, and God destroys them which destroy the earth. None of this can happen without a resurrection. Do you see any of this in the 6th seal? Absolutely not!

Revelation 11:15 　And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 　And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 　Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 　And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The time of the dead, Judgement, reward...none of that has come at the 6th seal. Only here at the seventh and last trumpet!
__________________________________________________________________________________
Revelation 14 is still within the last and 7th trumpet....
12 　Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 　¶And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 　And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 　And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 　And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
This I believe is the resurrection of the righteous dead and translation of the living righteous.
The rest (I think) is the resurrection of the wicked dead.
17 　And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 　And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 　And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 　And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

So in 1 Cor 15 we have a rapture where this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, and Death is swallowed up in victory. In Rev. 11 the seventh and last trump we have the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; And again at the seventh and last trump in Rev. 14 we have Jesus either returning on a cloud harvesting the earth with a sickle by a harvest of resurrection and rapture like he is in Mt.24, 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:17.....all of it is in the 7th and last trump of Rev. 11 and 14! NOT THE 6TH SEAL!

I hope you can see the similarities between the verses I mentioned above. They are all in accord. But the sixth seal mentions nothing about a cloud and is not in accord with any death, rapture, harvest, rewards, incorruption, or immortality.

Kaotic, Your words: "Christian's aren't appointed to wrath??? That's true. But that doesn't mean that it's averted by a rapture! The Word say's it's averted by Christ through repentance...i.e.salvation."

It's only complicated to you, not to pre-wrath adherents.

Within the context of 1 Thess. 5:1-9 - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[sup]2 [/sup]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[sup]3 [/sup]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[sup]4 [/sup]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[sup]5 [/sup]Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[sup]6 [/sup]Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[sup]7 [/sup]For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[sup]8 [/sup]But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
[sup]9 [/sup]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

It's pretty plain that the "wrath" is associated with the Day of the Lord! One must be "saved" in order to be raptured.

A rapture isn't mentioned in the text. And...
Did you notice though Trek that in verse 7-9 "wrath' is averted by "salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" and not a rapture! In other words salvation is how we avoid God's wrath! See what I mean by fabrications!

[sup]7 [/sup]For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[sup]8 [/sup]But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
[sup]9 [/sup]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

 

[ENOCH2010]

Excellent post !!!!! You nailed that down kaoticprofit

 

[revturmoil]

Excellent post !!!!! You nailed that down kaoticprofit

Thanks ENOCH2010. IT'S NOT OFTEN I GET AN AFFIRMATIVE REPLY.

It's not that difficult to figure out the rapture. I say the problem with most Christians is that they latch onto theories without doing their own unbiased homework. Too often people study the works of others without questioning them or they study the Word according to what they already believe. They don't have an open mind. Nobody lkes to admit their wrong or that they made a mitsake but that's how I learn!

 

[ENOCH2010]

Thanks ENOCH2010. IT'S NOT OFTEN I GET AN AFFIRMATIVE REPLY.

It's not that difficult to figure out the rapture. I say the problem with most Christians is that they latch onto theories without doing their own unbiased homework. Too often people study the works of others without questioning them or they study the Word according to what they already believe. They don't have an open mind. Nobody lkes to admit their wrong or that they made a mitsake but that's how I learn!

I was a pre-triber like everybody else,but I had questions about it that couldn't be answered and still hold to that doctrine. I believe the Lord led me to the truth of the second comming being the rapture and it happens at the last trump not pre-trib.

 

[rand]

I'm just a by-stander in this conversation, but 'He shall gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other' sounds to me like the elect are in heaven at the time of the last trump--if in fact that is the last trump (jury still out).

just trying to keep the pleasant conversation going

 

[ENOCH2010]

I'm just a by-stander in this conversation, but 'He shall gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other' sounds to me like the elect are in heaven at the time of the last trump--if in fact that is the last trump (jury still out).

just trying to keep the pleasant conversation going

A Lot of the elect are with the Father, they have been dieing to get there for 2000 years.

 

[Trekson]

Kaotic, I don't know why I bother because you apparently only read scripture that seems to agree with your pov and reject everything other scripture that defies it.

Rev. 6:16-17 - "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [sup]17 [/sup]For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand."

Why is it that the heathen are saying this? The church was raptured, that's all that's left to witness the wrath of the Lamb. Our arrival in heaven is depicted in Rev. 7:9 - "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

The 7 trumpet judgments are as identified the "WRATH OF THE LAMB!"

The seven vial judgments are the WRATH OF GOD! Rev. 11:15 closes the 70th week and uses the same tense "is come" as Rev. 6:17.
Rev. 15:1 - "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

Rev. 14:14-20 is simply another picture of the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25. Both are harvested, the sheep in vs. 15 and the goats vss. 18-20.

Really! This is prophecy 101, I expected better.

Your words: They don't have an open mind. Nobody likes to admit their wrong or that they made a mistake but that's how I learn!

That's how I learned as well but you are describing yourself, imo.

 

[rand]

I think I have a way to easily settle this: Bible says something about most believers will be taken in a time when they expect it the least. All we have to do is find out what most people, who claim to be Christian, believe and know that they are wrong.