Understanding The Flow of Our Lord's Book of Revelation

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Trekson

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Hi Rand, LOL! In this case tho, I don't think it would work. I think the most popular majority belief is still pre-trib so even if we consider them wrong that doesn't change the difference of opinion between pre-wrath and post-trib.

It's not as big a deal as Kaotic wants it to be though. I'm just debating this because I had some free time on my hands. It's frustrating sometimes but I enjoy it too.
 

revturmoil

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I'm actualy a bit tired of discussing rapture theories.

I say the way to settle this is to accept the words of Jesus!

Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Everything I presented to you is in accord with the words of Jesus!
 

JosyWales

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The big question...
How do you arrive at your conclusions! And considering all the things you've said, "I don't want to know"!

I think the last part of your sentance makes it all clear. Dont ask if you dont want to know. After all, anyone who wants to understand why I think as I do can click on my name and see my posts which explain my thinking in detail

But I learned a long time ago that although you can lead a horse to water...
 

Trekson

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Hi Kaotic, Your words: "I say the way to settle this is to accept the words of Jesus!"

I agree and it's all I've ever done.


Matt. 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days ( the persecution and martyrdom of the church) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (signs of the 6th seal)
[sup]30 [/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[sup]31 [/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, (note: "A" trumpet, not "last" )and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
 

revturmoil

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Hi Kaotic, Your words: "I say the way to settle this is to accept the words of Jesus!"

I agree and it's all I've ever done.


Matt. 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days ( the persecution and martyrdom of the church) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (signs of the 6th seal)
[sup]30 [/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[sup]31 [/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, (note: "A" trumpet, not "last" )and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (signs of the 6th seal)

You're telling me that this is the sixth seal??? There's a difference between a blood red moon and a moon that doesn't give her light. The blood red moon comes first at the beginning of tribulation. And like Jesus said, the moon does not give her light at the end of tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matt. 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
If you don't know the difference I can explain.

Mark 13:24 ¶But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, (note: "A" trumpet, not "last" )and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Why would you assume that all the rapture verses be worded the same way? Look at the differences of the same event between Mt. 24, Mk.13, and Luke 21! Why do you assume that all rapture verses, whether they mention trumpets or not, have to be worded alike? In some instances they record the same event and it almost looks contradictory! It's common for the bible authors to word things a little different when they were writing to different people. It doesn't mean it's a different event or that the time of it is different. Do you think that in every rapture verse they should have said, "at the last trump. the trump of God, and at a great sound of a trumpet... just so Trekson doesn't get confused and is able to figure this out! But you must fabricate a difference in the meaning and timing of the trumpets and change the meaning of the word last because if you didn't that alone would debunk the pre-wrath rapture happening at Revelation 6!

Let the fabrications continue and continue and...
I'll debunk them every time!
Truth is...You just don't know how to interpret the bible.
 

rand

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Well, I have read all the post here and I can honestly say I don't know. There are some great arguments for both sides, however, I do believe the pre-trib rapture and there are three main reasons I tend to stick to that.

1) Jesus told us that not even the gates of hell will prevail against His church. I'm a believer, so I'm in the Church Christ established on the confession of Peter. In Revelation (the book of the Bible), it says that the Beast will make war with the saints of the most High and will over-power them. The saints in this case, I believe, are those who are saved durring the tribulation.

2) Jesus said in Revelation that He would save the church of Philidelphia from the hour of temptation that will try the WHOLE WORLD. Notice, no one on the earth will excape the trial. Notice also that not all the churches will escape the hour of temptation, some, Jesus said would go thru the temptation period and would not excape.

3) Luke 21:36 Jesus says pray that you are found worthy to escape (not endure) all these things.

There are many more reasons, but these are the main ones for me.
 

revturmoil

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Well, I have read all the post here and I can honestly say I don't know. There are some great arguments for both sides, however, I do believe the pre-trib rapture and there are three main reasons I tend to stick to that.

1) Jesus told us that not even the gates of hell will prevail against His church. I'm a believer, so I'm in the Church Christ established on the confession of Peter. In Revelation (the book of the Bible), it says that the Beast will make war with the saints of the most High and will over-power them. The saints in this case, I believe, are those who are saved durring the tribulation.

2) Jesus said in Revelation that He would save the church of Philidelphia from the hour of temptation that will try the WHOLE WORLD. Notice, no one on the earth will excape the trial. Notice also that not all the churches will escape the hour of temptation, some, Jesus said would go thru the temptation period and would not excape.

3) Luke 21:36 Jesus says pray that you are found worthy to escape (not endure) all these things.

There are many more reasons, but these are the main ones for me.

Debunking pretribulationism is no different than debunking pre-wrath.

The word escape doesn't imply a rapture. This is what the word means.

to flee out of, flee away
a) to seek safety in flight
B) to escape

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G1628&t=KJV
If someone is a Christian they should not have to pray to be raptured. The promise is there anyway. We are told to pray to escape all these things that are coming. So if a Muslim suicide bomber plans on blowing up a nuke in NYC. Pray that God would fore-warn you someway so that you can get out!

Get it?
 

Trekson

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Kaotic, You debunk nothing. You just ramble on and on trying to prove a point that isn't provable. Here's the bottom line: Anyone that builds a foundation of theological belief based on a two-word phrase that is only used once in the bible, with absolutely no scriptural proof that it is even referencing the same basic event it is ascribed to, is foolish, unlearned and definitely not being a Berean. Especially when there are plausible alternative theories to what that phrase might represent. If you were to go anywhere else, in any other field of study and try to pull that off your career and your reputation would be ruined.


Rand, I respect your beliefs even though I don't agree with them. If you ever want to discuss it, you know where to find me.
 

teleiosis

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THE WORD ESCHATOS MEANS THE EXTREME LAST.
Then you can correct God.

In regards to trumpets, there are three that "belong" to God. They are associated with the Festivals and they have names. Now God is not above playing with words and there are some pretty cute names in the Bible.

The names for the three Trumpets of God are: the First Trumpet, the Last Trumpet, and the Great Trumpet.
The are associated with the Festival of Firstfruits, the Festival of Trumpets, and Yom Kippur.

Funny, God doesn't put the order of His Trumpets in the order you demand by way of the Greek!
Perhaps your ways and God's ways are not the same.
Kind of like how you conveniently fabricate Hab 1:9 to make it say something it doesn't.
 

revturmoil

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Then you can correct God.

In regards to trumpets, there are three that "belong" to God. They are associated with the Festivals and they have names. Now God is not above playing with words and there are some pretty cute names in the Bible.

The names for the three Trumpets of God are: the First Trumpet, the Last Trumpet, and the Great Trumpet.
The are associated with the Festival of Firstfruits, the Festival of Trumpets, and Yom Kippur.

Funny, God doesn't put the order of His Trumpets in the order you demand by way of the Greek!
Perhaps your ways and God's ways are not the same.
Kind of like how you conveniently fabricate Hab 1:9 to make it say something it doesn't.

You've been debunked and I can tell you now have an axe to grind. After all, neither you or Trekson certainly are NOT the shapest tool in the drawer. You're the one playing with words and the one who needs correction. Not me and not God! You guys are the ones changing the meaning of the word last to fit your false theology!

I'm going to tell you this one more time.

The word inspired means God breathed or God spoke. When God did speak to his prophets he spoke to them in the language that the prophet spoke, understood, and wrote in. In this case that language was Greek. So if I want to know what words God spoke to Paul when he wrote "the last trump," or, "the last day" I need to look at the Greek.

Now you fabricationist can accuse me of what you like so....

Look at what Strong's says at the top of the page,

1) extreme
a) last in time or in place
last in a series of places
c) last in a temporal succession
2) the last
a) last, referring to time
of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth
c) of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest

And look at what Thayer says at the bottom of the page,
...the last in a series of places. in a temporal succession, the last: that remains after the rest have been conquered, that remains after the rest have one after another been spent. the trumpet after which no other trumpet will sound.

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G2078&t=KJV

The word 'eschatos' is the same word Jesus used when he said, "I am the first and the last."

This word 'eschatos' and Omega are the only words for last that means the finality or extreme last like it is here...

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

If Paul wanted to mean last when another could follow he would have used a word other than 'eschatos' or 'omega' for last...

2078. eschatos es'-khat-os a superlative probably from 2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):--ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
4070. perusi per'-oo-si adverb from 4009; the by-gone, i.e. (as noun) last year:--+ year ago.
4218. pote pot-eh' from the base of 4225 and 5037; indefinite adverb, at some time, ever:--afore-(any, some-)time(-s), at length (the last), (+ n- )ever, in the old time, in time past, once, when.
5305. husteron hoos'-ter-on neuter of 5306 as adverb; more lately, i.e. eventually:--afterward, (at the) last (of all).
5598. omega o'-meg-ah the last letter of the Greek alphabet, i.e. (figuratively) the finality:--Omega.
The other words,

Aren't you guys always saying let scripture interpret scripture? You're method of interpretation is to fabricate things to support your doctrinal belief and you blatantly disregard the scriptural evidence because you've accepted, latched onto, and are bound to your false doctrine. You are loyal to your doctrine rather than loyal to the Word of God. You're not looking for truth. You're loyal to and trying to support a doctrine you have fallen for.... and a false one at that!

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Kaotic, You debunk nothing. You just ramble on and on trying to prove a point that isn't provable. Here's the bottom line: Anyone that builds a foundation of theological belief based on a two-word phrase that is only used once in the bible, with absolutely no scriptural proof that it is even referencing the same basic event it is ascribed to, is foolish, unlearned and definitely not being a Berean. Especially when there are plausible alternative theories to what that phrase might represent. If you were to go anywhere else, in any other field of study and try to pull that off your career and your reputation would be ruined.


Rand, I respect your beliefs even though I don't agree with them. If you ever want to discuss it, you know where to find me.

A point that isn't provable??? The fact that the scroll isn't even opened yet at the 6th seal should enlighten you....but obviously it doesn't!

What you need is an introduction to hermeneutics and hermeneutics 101. You can say what you like but you have been DEBUNKED!
 

veteran

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If you read the first three chapters of Revelation, There are many Churches that go thru the tribulation. One (Philidephia) does not. No one knows for sure, but if you ask me, this wrath that has fallen on 'all the inhabitant of the earth' means no one is excluded. Post trib believers seem to think they will be excluded from wrath during the tribulation. is that true? It doesn't say that in Revelation that I've seen. One of the main reasons I believe in pre-trib is because Jesus said that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church and Satan and his army are prevailing against those going thru the tribulation. Paul seemed to think the catching away of the church could happen at any time and the people he led seemed to have believed they had missed it at one point.

Many miscontrue what the 'wrath' is that Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5. He was talking about God's wrath upon the wicked on the last day of this present world time on the day of Christ's return, which is what the "sudden destruction" he mentioned is also timed with. So if we, Christ's Church, are still here on earth when that happens, how will we not suffer it? Simple, as God gave us examples in the OT prophets of how accurate He can be with a destruction upon the wicked while not touching a hair on the head of His elect. God's Power and ability to be that accurate should never be compared with man's limitations on executing judgments. Our God is a consuming fire, as written.

When our Lord Jesus said the gates of hell won't prevail over His Church, that does not mean we are not going to suffer trials and tribulations in this world, since He said we would, as also did His Apostles. In the ultimate sense, that's about His Church overcoming through Him; we have the Victory and already know Satan and his are going to lose.Those who preach the Pre-trib Rapture theory like to throw the idea out that Christ's Church won't suffer the tribulation because we won't be here for it. That's NOT what God's Word teaches, and that's when Christian maturity comes, by learning to verify in God's Word for yourself to know when some are simply following a lie founded by others that has become a tradition over time, i.e., the pre-trib rapture theory.


I believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I don't know for sure. I really don't think anyone but God the Father knows, maybe Jesus and the Holy Spirit know, now, too. But I'm not sure. I think there are good arguments for both sides and if God has chosen to not make it perfectly clear to us, I'm sure that His reason for doing so is not so we would fight and devide over it. I guess the point is: Just always be ready.

God's Word reveals the events and timing of them all the way up to Christ's coming. We just can't know the specific day or hour. But some men will say that means no one can know the very events He revealed leading up to His return, events which are well written of throughout God's Word, and it was written specifically for His Church. So how is it some say no man can know those written events? Once again, that's what teachers on the false pre-trib rapture theory want you to think. Try thinking for youself with asking God's help, and then getting into His Word with self-discipline. I guarantee you, then you will... know. And no man will be able to take it away from you. That's how we stop being a reed shaking in the wind, going from this doctrine to another doctrine, and never coming to the Truth.
 

revturmoil

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3) Luke 21:36 Jesus says pray that you are found worthy to escape (not endure) all these things.

There are many more reasons, but these are the main ones for me.

Mt.10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mt.24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mk.13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Did God remove Daniel from the lions den or did He save him through it? Did God save the three Hebrews from the firery furnace or did He save them through it? Did God save Job from his trials or did He help him through it?

Enough said!
 

veteran

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You did some research regarding "last" but how about the word "day". Some of the defs. in Strong's G2250 is a period, age, time, while, years, as well as the time between sunrise and dusk, depending on the context. So just using the word "last" does not back up your conclusions.

Vet, the last paragraph can apply to our discussion as well.

I assume you mean your last paragraph there.

Well, you are wrong, and it's not difficult to prove by the Scriptures, because there's a specific event those Scriptures attach to the timing of that particular "last day" idea. It's called the resurrection.

So if you're confused about the meaning of "last day" there, it has to also mean you're confused on when that "resurrection" happens. It happens on the day of Christ's return, as per Christ and His Apostle's testimonies.
 

Trekson

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Hi Vet, We've been here before. I agree with your last sentence but exactly when is still the question. You can call it the "last day" and leave it at that or we could call it the last day of the age. Realistically the "real" last day won't come until the end of the rebellion that comes at the end of the millennium. So to assume it means the 2520th day of the 70th week is just postulating. It can't be proven just like my beliefs can't be proven. It just boils down to how we all see the big picture. If we all agreed on everything there would be nothing to talk about and boards such as this would turn into a christian "facebook", God forbid!


Kaotic, Your questions: "Did God remove Daniel from the lions den or did He save him through it? Did God save the three Hebrews from the firery furnace or did He save them through it? Did God save Job from his trials or did He help him through it?

My questions: Did the apostles all die horrible deaths or did God see them through it? Did all the martyr's of the 1st century church die or did God see them through it?

Is it possible that some will come through unscathed until the rapture? Sure, but the majority won't. Death isn't the enemy. Sudden death means sudden glory, but we would be fools to not consider the possibility that most of us won't make it through alive.
 

teleiosis

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You've been debunked.

I can see you're making this very personal here. As a question of personal integrity, I would hold you to account for your position.

You have not answered how God can array His Trumpets in an order that doesn't suit your strait-jacket literal definition of "eschatos."

That is a valid point in God's Word.

Remember:

Isa 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God puts His Trumpets through the Festivals in this order: First, Last, and then Great.

- You say that the Last Trumpet is the trumpet after which no other trumpet will sound.
- God says in the Millennium, when Christ Jesus is revealed to the Remnant Jews, whom He shepherds through the destruction of the second half of the one 'seven,' that a call will go out to the whole surviving world to assemble on the new Mount Zion. Here the ingathering Sukkot takes place.

This call is for the people of Rev 16:15 and the meek who survive the Wrath of God to join the Jews in worshipping Jesus through the sacrificial system He will put in place as written in the last chapters of Ezekiel.

God doesn't play by the most extreme definition of the Greek language you insist upon using.
God predates the Greek and even had a hand in using it to His Purpose.

So what are the First and Last Trumpets, a matching pair by the way, first and last of?
The growing season, in a literal, normal yearly sense for those who live in an agricultural society.
The Church Age, in a figurative and eschatological sense.

The Church began on Pentecost, the Festival of Firstfruits.
The Church will be taken out on an unknown day - that is a euphemism for the Festival of Trumpets, Rosh ha-Shanah.
The Church will be taken out with the Last Trumpet - that is a "named" Trumpet of God associated with Rosh ha-Shanah.

Jesus and Paul are pointing to Rosh ha-Shanah as being a template for Jesus' Second Advent.
The last day, is the last of an age: the Church Age - the growing season of a great "HARVEST" of souls.
This last day is marked by the "Last Trumpet" which is not absolutely last in God's lineup, but it also marks the extreme end of a period of time
-- and that is included in the Greek definition, just one that you want to ignore.

Now you can say I have been debunked shouting "last means last" and covering your ears so you cannot hear any rebuttal, but your argument, as simple as it is, has been rebutted with a fact of God's eternal plan. While last certainly ends something -- it is not the extreme end you insist upon in your eschatology!

And as far as your personal attack to discredit an argument you don't want to hear, and cannot answer - I can raise a whole host of questions on your role in fabricating words into prophecy in Hab 1:9.
 

revturmoil

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I can see you're making this very personal here. As a question of personal integrity, I would hold you to account for your position.

You have not answered how God can array His Trumpets in an order that doesn't suit your strait-jacket literal definition of "eschatos."

That is a valid point in God's Word.

Remember:










Isa 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God puts His Trumpets through the Festivals in this order: First, Last, and then Great.

God doesn't play by the normal, day-to-day definition of the Greek language. God predates the Greek and even had a hand in using it to His Purpose.

So what are the First and Last Trumpets, a matching pair by the way, first and last of?
The growing season, in a literal, normal yearly sense for those who live in an agricultural society.
The Church Age, in a figurative and eschatological sense.

The Church began on Pentecost, the Festival of Firstfruits.
The Church will be taken out on an unknown day - that is a euphemism for the Festival of Trumpets, Rosh ha-Shanah.
The Church will be taken out with the Last Trumpet - that is a "named" Trumpet of God associated with Rosh ha-Shanah.

Jesus and Paul are pointing to Rosh ha-Shanah as being a template for Jesus' Second Advent.
The last day, is the last of an age: the Church Age - the growing season of a great "HARVEST" of souls.
This last day is marked by the "Last Trumpet" which is not absolutely last in God's lineup, but it also marks the extreme end of a period of time
-- and that is included in the Greek definition, just one that you want to ignore.

Now you can say I have been debunked shouting "last means last" and covering your ears so you cannot hear any rebuttal, but your argument, as simple as it is, has been rebutted with a fact of God's eternal plan. While last certainly ends something -- it is not the extreme end you insist upon in your eschatology!

And as far as your personal attack to discredit an argument you don't want to hear, and cannot answer - I can raise a whole host of questions on your role in fabricating words into prophecy in Hab 1:9.

Being debunked isn't bad or a personal attack. It's a fact of life in a debate and it's the truth!
You're welcome to debunk post trib if you like and see where it gets you!
AND!

I take full responsibility for Hab.1:9. And a whole lot of people believe Habakkuk is all about ISLAM!
Besides. This thread isn't about Habukkuk or the feast and festivals or Rosh ha-Shanah!
AND! If you don't like being debunked get out of the debate!

Debunk means to prove that something is false

Read more: http://wiki.answers....n#ixzz26wnOUoAt

And I gotta tell you...
This one takes the cake!

God doesn't play by the normal, day-to-day definition of the Greek language. God predates the Greek and even had a hand in using it to His Purpose.

He doesn't! Tell John and Paul that because that's the language God spoke to them in and the language they wrote the Word in!!

Remember the old saying, "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen". Maybe it's time for you to realize that!
 

teleiosis

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You have twisted Hab 1:9 from the Babylonians around to saying it involves Muslims.
You have added words, FABRICATING the text, to add facing east (they face Mecca), five times a day, and you add it all up to world domination.

Hab 1:9 concerns Israel's captivity into Babylon.
It does not concern the present North-South war.

You have not addressed the issue whereby God has set the order of His Trumpets as First, Last, and Great.

You have little in the way of credibitlity to judge who is debunked being totally bankrupt in the truth to begin with in this argument.
First take the beam out of your eye, then you can take the splinter out of mine.
 

revturmoil

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You have twisted Hab 1:9 from the Babylonians around to saying it involves Muslims.
You have added words, FABRICATING the text, to add facing east (they face Mecca), five times a day, and you add it all up to world domination.

Hab 1:9 concerns Israel's captivity into Babylon.
It does not concern the present North-South war.

You have not addressed the issue whereby God has set the order of His Trumpets as First, Last, and Great.

You have little in the way of credibitlity to judge who is debunked being totally bankrupt in the truth to begin with in this argument.
First take the beam out of your eye, then you can take the splinter out of mine.

Have you ever studied the book of Habukkuk? I don't want to tell you everything I know....yet!

The time is coming though!
And besides. This thread isn't about Habukkuk. But you keep pulling it up because, "you've been DEBUNKED!"

And I'll be back to debunk more of your false doctrine when I come back!

Don't take this personal. God will forgive all of us for our mitsakes! Even your role as a fabricator. I'm a fabricator too> But I ususally do it with metal and not God's Word. However, I do believe that I'm wrong in some things. But I don't change the meaning of God's Word to fit my theology.

If I have time tonight I'll show you why many believe Habukkuk is all about ISLAM!
 

Trekson

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Haven't you realized by now that pre-wrath IS post -trib? When you understand what the great trib is, what it entails, it's short duration, that it's not the last 3 1/2 yrs. or 7yrs. It's just a short period of time within the context of the 70th week. Your theology is post 70th week and that I can work with, just give me a couple of days.

As not all "post-tribbers" agree with each other, a little outline of your beliefs would make it easier, if you really want to go there.
 

rand

New Member
Sep 10, 2012
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I think we are confusing the wrath of people (which is some of the tribulation Jesus told us about--in other words persecution) and the wrath of God, which is the seven viels the seven angels pour out on the earth. The wrath of God for those who have trusted in the Christ, has been poured out on Christ at the cross. It seems it would be unjust for the Father to pour His wrath on us twice.

I know post tribbers say that wrath will not hit the Christians, but Revelation says the beast will overpower all the saints on the earth. I understand that that is not the wrath of God, but of the enemy. However, the beast will not raise to power until the one that 'lets' is taken out of the way. I believe this is the Holy Spirit (which is inside of me). Also, when Christ comes back, Revelation says that the redeemed (fine, white linnen, white and clean) are going with Him (Rev 19:14), and not going to Him (as in Rapture). Also, when John got to heaven to witness all that took place, the redeemed were already there.

Also, If you look at the ten virgins, the five that had the Holy Spirit (oil) were let in to the mariage, and the door was shut. and Rev 19 tells us that the mariage comes before He Comes Again (comes again with his armies--the redeemed)

I have studied, and I've sat under other schollars (both views) and I've even published a book, still I can say It's not perfectly clear. On the surface it looks like a post trib rapture, but as you look deeper, it looks like a pre-trib rapture esp. if you look at some of the teachings of Paul where they were all expecting His coming at any time. Some even thought they had missed it at one point and thuoght they were in the tribulation.

What seems to be happening, though is that those who believe pretrib take the Bible more litteral, and those who believe post trib seem to take the Bible less literal. Is that true? If the Bible is literal, then when the 2nd half of the trib begins, we know we have exactly 3.5 months thill the 2nd coming--thus knowing the day, and He said we won't know the day.