Understanding The Great Trib

[Truth7t7]

Not a hair on your head will perish was a promise made to the Jews. There has not been such a promise made to the church.
Checkmate. You lose.

Those seen spoken to in Luke 21 were "Church" saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, names written in the book of life, those who walked and talked to the living word, those who witnessed the death, burial, and resurrection

You create two people's of God in (Dual Cocenant Theology) Jew/Church a teaching in error

Your claim of checkmate is laughable

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Oseas]

Oh, c'mon people. Saying each other have lying spirits or are deceiving is a bit over the top.
Truth7t7 and stunnedbygrace like this.

Kids on sugar. Ain’t pretty.
Cassandra and Truth7t7 like this

What does the Word of GOD say?- Genesis 2:v.17-17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good(pure Word of GOD)and evil
(the false interpretation of the Word of GOD, words of the Devil, THE BREAD OF LIE), thou shalt not EAT of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely DIE.

Genesis 3 -
God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? Adam anwered: I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
And GOD asked; Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said: ..., the woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. (In all Christian forums, there are more MEN than WOMAN mixing from the tree of the knowledge of good (pure Word of GOD-pure Bible) with the tree of evil (the false interpretation of the Word of GOD, words of the Devil, THE BREAD OF LIE).

What does the Word of GOD say? GOD is Truth. Now, now, no lie comes of the Truth, course, Satan is the source of lie.

A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies. Prov.14:v.5
Proverbs 13:v. 5 - A righteous man hateth lying:...

Psalm 40:v.4-Blessed is that man that maketh the Lord his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Psalm 4:v.2-O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love what is vain, seeking after lie? Selah.

Revelation 21:v.8-CJB- 8 But as for the cowardly, the untrustworthy, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those involved with the OCCULT and with drugs, idol-worshippers, AND ALL LIARS — their destiny is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, the second death.

The Word is GOD. GOD is Spirit. GOD is WRATHED. And GOD will not withdraw/revoke His WRATH-Job 9:v.13.

Be careful OR get ready

 

[Cassandra]

If he believes it is true, then he is not lying.
Lying is willful intent to deceive, which is not the case here.
Throw as many verses as you want.
There must be intent to deceive and I don't think there is.
And you know this, too.

 

[teamventure]

Those seen spoken to in Luke 21 were "Church" saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, names written in the book of life, those who walked and talked to the living word, those who witnessed the death, burial, and resurrection

You create two people's of God in (Dual Cocenant Theology) Jew/Church a teaching in error

Your claim of checkmate is laughable

Jesus Is The Lord

Oh so you're replacement theology too. Your understanding of scripture is laughable.

 

[teamventure]

Those seen spoken to in Luke 21 were "Church" saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, names written in the book of life, those who walked and talked to the living word, those who witnessed the death, burial, and resurrection

You create two people's of God in (Dual Cocenant Theology) Jew/Church a teaching in error

Your claim of checkmate is laughable

Jesus Is The Lord

Btw checkmate still stands. You lose.

 

[Davy]

Early saints way before Darby taught the rapture was imminent.

Clement of Rome
Pseudo-Barnabas
Irenaeus of Lyon
Pseudo-Ephraem

This is common knowledge now amongst scholars and your John Darby regergitation is just propaganda.

Source: The Rapture: A Pre-Darby Rapture | Truth & Tidings

In reality, modern Pre-trib Rapture scholars have admitted that the pre-trib rapture theory wasn't taught in a church until Darby in the 1830s Great Britain. The earliest claim they have for the doctrine was by a Catholic monk who partially wrote the idea as a thesis, (still not been substantiated either, just like your above claimed sources also).

 

[Davy]

QUESTION...
Do you believe Wrath occurs during the Tribulation?

Your question response does not answer the question.
Try again.

Why do you allow others to read The Bible for you and tell you what it says, instead of reading it for yourself? You should at least be checking your teachers out in God's Word for yourself.

The only PROPER way to understand what "wrath" Apostle Paul pointed to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is to READ the previous verses...

1 Thess 5:1-9
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul told those Thessalonian believers that he no need to reveal about the "times and the seasons" to them, because they already perfectly knew that "the day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

The Old Testament prophets were given to write a lot about the future events to happen on the "day of the Lord", so that means these Thessalonian believers well understand all that, as that day is pointing to Christ's return.

Thus the time Paul is pointing to is that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. The "times and the seasons" is to point to the events to happen leading up to that day of Christ's return.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

That "sudden destruction" was first prophesied in the Old Testament prophets about the "day of the Lord". God showed through His prophets that destruction would come suddenly, at an instant, and end this present world, including ending man's works off it (as Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10). It speaks of God's Wrath upon the wicked on that day of that "sudden destruction".

Thus GOD's Wrath on that "day of the Lord" that will be upon the wicked on the 'last day', is the wrath Paul is pointing to that is not upon those in Christ Jesus.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Those in Christ are to be aware of the "times and the seasons" Paul speaks of, i.e., the events leading up to Christ's future coming and end of this world on the "day of the Lord". By that we are to remain spiritually sober, and not spiritually asleep like those who are not watching.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

And there it is, WHICH WRATH? Satan's wrath during the trib?? NO! Paul was speaking of GOD's WRATH upon the wicked with that "sudden destruction" upon those who will be saying, "Peace and safety"!!!

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

remember the promise made when you see a rainbow God may never do it again but look there's something greater than that will happen in the future and if it weren't for the elect's sake no one will live not sure if that is literal or spiritual if it's spiritual then it's not physical if it's not shortened then no one but the few will be saved and have eternal life

 

[Davy]

Says the guy who also says the pretrib rapture was made up by J.Darby.
So your defense is you just take scripture and history and claim it's made up. Lol. Big smiles.

Darby actually got the idea from the Edward Irving church in 1830's Great Britain. That still does not excuse Darby from preaching a false doctrine from man that is NOT written anywhere in God's Word. So you only show your Biblical illiteracy by believing such a doctrine because it shows you'd rather listen to men than to study God's written Word for yourself. How many other things do you rely on others to do for you?

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

remember the promise made when you see a rainbow God may never do it again but look there's something greater than that will happen in the future and if it weren't for the elect's sake no one will live not sure if that is literal or spiritual if it's spiritual then it's not physical if it's not shortened then no one but the few will be saved and have eternal life

So what did Jesus shorten the coming tribulation to? Where's it written? (And it is written.)

And yet, that still has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church will not be until AFTER... the tribulation He mentioned, and I believe Him (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

 

[Taken]

Why do you allow others to read The Bible for you and tell you what it says, instead of reading it for yourself?

Your lack of knowing what I do, has lead you to make a FALSE assumption and FALSE accusation to me.

I never said, I ask anyone to read the Bible FOR ME....that is your assumption and accusation....your words....NOT MINE!

You should at least be checking your teachers out in God's Word for yourself.

Why do you attempt to advise me, to do what I already do?

Seems your thinking is narrow. Seems you do not comprehend ASKING QUESTIONS, DOES NOT MEAN, the one ASKING DOES NOT KNOW THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION, but rather does the one being asked, KNOW THE ANSWER!

Perhaps you should settled within yourself, IF you believe Jesus Knows all things.......AND DID JESUS ask questions, He already knew the answer...

John 16:
[30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Jesus Himself ASKED men OVER 300 QUESTIONS expressly revealed in Scripture ...

 

[Taken]

And yet, that still has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church will not be until AFTER... the tribulation He mentioned, and I believe Him (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

That’s fine, you believe, but is irrelevant to apply a truth, to that which it does not apply.

Rapture, pertains to what is IN Jesus’ Hand. Before Trib.
First Resurrection, pertains to what is IN Gods Hand. During and After Trib.


God DIVIDED MEN...
Men WITH God.....from men WITHOUT God.

Ex 8:
[23] And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.

Further DIVISION...
Josh 11:
[23] So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the LORD said unto Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. And the land rested from war.


Jesus DIVIDED MEN...
Men WITH JESUS....from men WITHOUT Jesus.
(Which includes....men ONLY with God...who are WITHOUT Jesus).

Luke 12:
51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
John.7
[43] So there was a division among the people because of him.
John.10
[19] There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.


The CHURCH, is “IN” Jesus’ HAND, they are Jesus’.
^ ARE SAV-ED Before physical death.
The BELIEVERS, NOT in Jesus’ Church, are “in” Gods HAND.
^ ARE SAV-ED After physical death.


John 10:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The catching up, RAPTURE applies to those “IN” Jesus’ HAND, risen UP, before the Tribulation.
The First RESURRECTION applies to the “REST OF THE DEAD BELIEVERS”, “IN” Gods’ HAND, risen UP, after the 1,000 year reign.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Those seen spoken to in Luke 21 were "Church" saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, names written in the book of life, those who walked and talked to the living word, those who witnessed the death, burial, and resurrection

You create two people's of God in (Dual Cocenant Theology) Jew/Church a teaching in error

Your claim of checkmate is laughable

Jesus Is The Lord

God Created the DIVISION. See post #172.
Jesus Created DIVISION.
Scripture reveals the DIVISION.
Understanding the DIVISION...is not a man “creating two people’s of God”...

Open EYES....the DIVISION is expressly world wide known...
Men.....expressly, not believing IN God.
Men ....expressly, believing IN other Gods.
Men.....expressly, believing IN God, and a not YET appearing Messiah.
Men.....expressly, believing IN God, and an ALREADY having appeared Messiah.

Plenty of DIVISIONS among men.
Men “WITH” God & Jesus, SHALL BE risen up (bodily) by the Power of God, Christ
......before the Trib....body glorified

Men “WITH” God, SHALL BE risen up (bodily) by the Power of God.
......after the Trib...body glorified

Men “with” neither...shall be risen up (bodily) by the Power of God/
....after the Trib...judged, body destroyed.

 

[Davy]

Your lack of knowing what I do, has lead you to make a FALSE assumption and FALSE accusation to me.

I never said, I ask anyone to read the Bible FOR ME....that is your assumption and accusation....your words....NOT MINE!

If you were reading and studying God's Word for yourself, you wouldn't push the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, because you would believe what Lord Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

So why... have you NOT believed what Lord Jesus has said there???

 

[Taken]

If you were reading and studying God's Word for yourself, you wouldn't push the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, because you would believe what Lord Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

So why... have you NOT believed what Lord Jesus has said there???

What does the Return of the Son of Man after the Tribulation of those days, have to do with the CONVERTED IN CHRIST caught up to the clouds and meeting the Lord in the air BEFORE the Tribulation AND WRATH of those days?

 

[Davy]

What does the Return of the Son of Man after the Tribulation of those days, have to do with the CONVERTED IN CHRIST caught up to the clouds and meeting the Lord in the air BEFORE the Tribulation AND WRATH of those days?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." has EVERYTHING to do with the future event of Christ's return to gather His 'faithful' Church.

 

[Timtofly]

Those days of tribulation have been off and on for 1991 years.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

All this is about tribulation. When has the church somewhere ever stopped having tribulation? The Second Coming has always been soon and immanent after the tribulation of those days.

How can the Second Coming be the very last thing to happen? The AoD is the very last thing to happen before the end.

The very last thing after the Second Coming that Jesus mentions is the fig tree blooming. How can the fig tree blooming be the very last step, at the very end, after the Second Coming?

 

[Taken]

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." has EVERYTHING to do with the future event of Christ's return to gather His 'faithful' Church.

Try to stay on point.
What does “Christ’s return” (as you say),
Have to do with the Converted IN Christ meeting the Lord in the air Before Tribulation?

 

[Davy]

Those days of tribulation have been off and on for 1991 years.

That is a Preterist idea. It does not flow with God's written Word.

Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are tied to the Seals of Revelation 6. So what timing are the Seals for?

If you say the Seals of Revelation have been "off and on for 1991 years", then you are leaving... God's written Word, and instead defaulting to a doctrine of men.

It's very easy to fall into the trap of simply believing a tradition of men that 'sounds' good, without really checking it out in God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

You need to re-study this subject, because your argument ironically disagrees with scripture:
....

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." - Rev. 3:10

This passage alone destroys your argument because Christ (a) promised the Philadelphians protection from the Tribulation and (b) stated that the Tribulation would affect the whole world. The Bible does not teach anywhere that the Tribulation would only affect Christians who refuse the mark. It also doesn't teach that no Christian would be protected in a place of safety during the Tribulation. There is no need for the Philadelphians to be tested in the Tribulation because Christ already commended this particular group in Rev. 3:8 for their loyalty to the truth and His authority.

I didn't get a chance to address that last part, so I'll do it now.

In Christ's Book of Revelation, there were only two Churches out of seven that Jesus had no rebuke for, the Church of Smyrna, and the Church of Philadelphia. Both of those two Churches represent His very elect that are sealed and cannot be deceived in the end.

The following verse which Jesus said to the Church of Philadelphia, those on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory like to use in an attempt to show Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven before the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24.

Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
KJV

What exactly did Lord Jesus promise to keep them from? That "hour of temptation", which is about what? It is about an event that's to happen during the time of "great tribulation". What's that main temptation of that time per Jesus? It's about the false bowing in deception to the coming pseudo-Christ, thinking he instead is Jesus having come (Matthew 24:23-26 with Greek pseudochristos; same event Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8, and John in Revelation 13:11 forward).

Did Jesus mean His servants would go through that "great tribulation" which is why He warned to not believe on that coming pseudo-Christ, per the Matthew 24:23-26 Scripture? YES!!!

In reality then, that Revelation 3:10 verse is about keeping it in context with what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24 about the coming "great tribulation" as to how we go through it, staying in Him. By NOT bowing to that coming pseudo-Christ is HOW... we are kept from that "hour of temptation"!

Thus it's NOT about physical escape like the Pre-trib Rapture doctors want you to believe. It's about obeying Lord Jesus' command to NOT believe on that coming pseudo-Christ! It's as simple as that.

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Ok then, let's test the Pre-trib Rapture theory with the above. If that theory were true, then what in the world is Lord Jesus saying He will shorten the tribulation for His elect's sake?

That means His elect will go through it, otherwise if the Pre-trib Rapture were true, it would mean His elect would already be in Heaven at this point, watching the destruction of flesh, which of course that is NOT what that Scripture is showing. So this is actually common sense exposing the falseness of a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

What about that above, if the Pre-trib Rapture were true, then WHY... is Lord Jesus warning that "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect"? And WHY... is He commanding His servants to "believe it not" about that coming false-Christ that will appear during the great tribulation if they had already been raptured and are in Heaven?

The "hour of temptation" is simple; if you are NOT tempted by that coming pseudo-Christ, and obey Christ's command for us to, "believe it not" when that false one shows up and everyone else says 'Christ is here, or there', then YOU will NOT be subject to the "hour of temptation". Thus it's not about physical escape, it's about not being deceived!