Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy

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WPM

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Per your view, you don't have the NHNE happening until the great white throne judgment has occurred first. And that you have no more days remaining once the last day of this age occurs when Christ returns. Do you then think that the great white throne judgment can commence and conclude on the very same day Christ returns? Keeping in mind that a last day is still involving measurable time, obviously. If Christ returns on a Wednesday, for example. Obviously, 24 hours later it would no longer be the same day He returned.

You would have us believe that before it is another day, that the great white throne judgment involving billions and billions of ppl from the beginning of time through the end of time, will have commenced and have concluded entirely? Keeping in mind, per your view, until the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled first, there can't be a NHNE in the meantime.

If you argue that the great white throne judgment happens in the last day, then argue that the GWTJ happens outside of time, you are then contradicting what you are arguing since there is no such thing as a last day in the realm of outside of time.

More avoidance. I will help you: it comes after the millennium, thus negating your position.

You will never understand when “the last day” (singular) is if you do not understand when “the last days” (plural) are. We are currently in the “last (eschatos) days” (plural) since the beginning of Christ's earth ministry, but these are shown in Scripture to have an end. The “last (or final or ultimate) day” (singular) is said to occur at Christ's coming. This negates Premil.

Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wiped. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
 
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WPM

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Why not address my post instead of arguments not even brought up?

Those points are your own arguments and not from Scripture.

There was a resurrection at the Cross in Matthew 27. Do you deny God's Word, and hide behind false accusations? The resurrection is an ongoing phenomenon, because the living in this present physical condition cannot prevent those from rising first, at no point in time. Not in the first century, the second century, nor the 2 millenia since the first century. Jesus specifically stated that those in Christ, would never taste death, because Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. There is no waiting in the grave for the redeemed. There is the point that even at the GWT some will be granted eternal life and righteousness. You all assume all the dead will be destroyed, but Daniel pointed out that even then some will be redeemed as well.

That is not 2 resurrections, nor 3 resurrections. That is the point none in Christ of the Second Birth will ever need a resurrection, because the soul leaves Adam's temporal corruptible physical body, and immediately enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1. The day the soul leaves this dead flesh is the day of redemption. You think the day of redemption is a single point in time. You don't accept the first resurrection is physical, and ongoing. You think it is spiritual and you have 2 second births, while accusing others of having 2 false points. It is Amil who have 2 second births and they call one the first resurrection.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said that creation because of Adam would be made alive at 3 seperate points.

1. Christ the firstfruits.

2. Christ at the Second Coming.

3. The end after Christ must reign until all enemies are brought under subjection.

Amil see only one made alive point; their "second coming".

Amil reject souls were made alive, restored out of sin and death at the Cross.

Amil reject that Jesus as King will rule the nations at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 11:15

Amil reject the Sabbath Day of the Lord which is a time set apart Holy unto God wherein only righteousness dwells and the transgression is removed from creation per Daniel 9:24.

And yes, it is unfortunate that when Satan is loosed many are decieved whereby they are consumed with fire, the last of humanity made subject to death. But they are not deceieved during the Day of the Lord. Besides, that is the worse case scenario. Until it actually happens, who knows? You think it is just a vision and symbolic of the here and now, and not even real. Obviously 100 percent of humanity is currently already deceived by Satan because they are born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Do you deny you were born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh? In your scenario that would be 2 deceptions, the one you inherit at birth and then somehow deceived by Satan into thinking you are perfect the way you are.
The burden of proof is with you to support your claims. You don't because you do not have Scripture to do so.

The Premil millennium is full of billions of deceived humans who overrun the millennium at the end.
 

ewq1938

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Sorry if you don't like the analogy of portals. I should have stuck to a biblical word - gates. Because the word portals is your only argument against what I was saying

Nope, it's your claim that the gates are portals between heaven and Earth, which is imaginary and does not come from the bible.




but the unholy cannot enter and remain outside the city, suggests that the resurrected saints in Christ are able to pass into heaven and back to the earth at will, and the gates are metaphorical for 12 portals between heaven and earth in the new heavens and the new earth.
 

Zao is life

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Nope, it's your claim that the gates are portals between heaven and Earth, which is imaginary and does not come from the bible.
Even the Temple in Jerusalem was a pattern of the Gate of God/portal between God and the earth.

The Ishtar gate in Babylon was known by the Babylonians as the gate of the gods. It was considered the portal between earth and the gods.

Why do you think the symbolism of gates is used in Revelation?

So in the "city" populated by those in Christ there are twelve of those portals. And there is a Godly reason for that, too.

You cannot come to God except through Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no man comes to the Father except through Him.

And you cannot come through Jesus Christ except through faith in Jesus Christ.

New Jerusalem is the city of the living God:

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." (Hebrews 12:22-24).

Revelation 21
22 And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they might shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

God has raised us up together with Christ, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2

Where God is = "heaven".

The gates are portals to heaven.

Go and tell the translators of the English versions of the scriptures that they must choose another word because the word "gate" = "portal" and "portal" = "door/gate" and they must "stop turning the Greek word into a scifi novel" - because that is exactly what you are saying.

Or rather try and better understand what the Revelation is conveying to us about New Jerusalem and the new heavens and new earth.

And believe the Bible instead of falsely claiming that the Revelation is imaginary and is unbiblical.
 
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Zao is life

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That doesn't come from the bible which is why I called it imaginary sci-fi.
Gates is another word for portals, which is in the Bible. Where is the city?

@ewq1938 and where is the temple in the city?

@ewq1938 Why is there a high wall all around the city?

What's outside the wall?

What's inside the wall?
 
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ewq1938

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Gates is another word for portals, which is in the Bible. Where is the city?

@ewq1938 and where is the temple in the city?

@ewq1938 Why is there a high wall all around the city?

What's outside the wall?

What's inside the wall?


All red herring fallacies.
 

Timtofly

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The burden of proof is with you to support your claims. You don't because you do not have Scripture to do so.

The Premil millennium is full of billions of deceived humans who overrun the millennium at the end.
No, the burden of proof is with you to support your claims:

Premils duplicates everything. Two kingdom ages, two Gospel ages, two ages of death, sin, rebellion, funerals. 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. There is nowhere in Scripture that talks about 2 resurrection days (plural) and 2 judgment days (plural), including Revelation 20. They invent 2 Gog/Magog wars at the end of two last days periods. They invent two "first resurrections," 2 new heavens and new earths, 2 “last days” periods. They duplicate the "last day." They have 2 bindings of Satan. They have 2 weddings of the elect (Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 21:2), 2 future glorifications and 2 raptures (to facilitate their millennial earth passing away 1,000 years+ after the second coming). What is next? Is anything safe from this faulty mode of interpretation?

Pre-mill only point out that Revelation 20 is chronologically between Revelation 19 and Revelation 21. That is proven by opening up a Bible and reading all 3 chapters. No need to assert any human opinion at all.

All this double talk is you inserting your own opinions into God's Word. Then you avoid addressing posts, in which people point out the way you make stuff up just for argument sake.

The Amil millennium is full of billions of deceived humans who overrun the millennium at the end. Then the Second Coming happens and destroys them all. But let us not forget that each generation already died off over the years naturally. It was only the last few generations who were separated and given life or tossed into the LOF. We would not want to insinuate that Amil thought every one was still alive after 2 millennia. Amil have no corroboration in Scripture that all will still be alive at the end.

The only thing about your hyperbole accusation that is true, is that all those alive at the start of the Millennium are still alive at the end. What is untrue is that they overrun the Millennium itself. You sound like those deceived by Satan, who worry about overpopulation. God said in Genesis 1:27

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

There is one double that I see in Scripture. 2 Sabbaths. Two Days of the Lord that humans are to keep Holy, and to Remember. Yet you seem to blaspheme and denigrate the last and final Day of the Lord over and over again. Why is that? Then you deny the first one even happened.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."

God's plan was to always have the sons of God subdue the earth. Then God planted the Garden of Eden after the Day of the Lord. We all know what happened in the Garden. Now Jesus must:

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him."

Sound familiar?

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it."

This earth is a long way from being subdued after Adam's disobedience left the earth in a state of death.

Do you think God or Jesus just snaps their fingers and all is subdued? How does that work with what Paul wrote?

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Paul did not write:

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet, as they will all be instantly destroyed at the Second Coming"

In fact, Hebrews 10:5-9 says:

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

Why on earth do you think God would expect this Amil burnt offering of creation as a worthy submission to God? Amil declare that Christ offers God a creation that is a burnt offering, where creation is all destroyed and burned to a crisp, and then handed to God.

Yes, as a Pre-mill I see at least 3 resurrections pertaining to creation being made alive as Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15. Even you as an Amil claim a first resurrection at the start. Then a first resurrection at the end of your millennium. You just avoid it being an actual resurrection, thus nullifying what a resurrection is altogether. You assert Christ needed to be made alive instead of creation. So the order Paul gave is totally obliterated by you, and then denegrated to meaningless objections you think up.

What do you think the word all even means?

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

We know Paul is not just speaking of Adam and Eve's offspring. Even though a resurrection is mentioned.

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This does not mean all things about creation are burned to a crisp and then handed to God as a burnt offering. This means all things are removed from the state of death, and death itself is removed from creation. All of creation is made alive. Unless you conflate creating new things is also a resurrection, this current creation will be created as new, as in restored and made alive. Death will be held in check. Sin will be removed, and everlasting righteousness implemented. A far cry from the current state of death you claim is your millennium and your Day of the Lord. So you can keep those billions of humans not made alive in your millennium, and stop foisting them into God's Day of the Lord.

And your "final resurrection" at the GWT Judgment is not even part of this creation, as Jesus will have already presented a perfect creation to God prior to this Judgment. The only things leftover from the prior creation will be the LOF safely containing both death and the grave within it's shores.

One can interpret Daniel 12:2 several ways. In fact that is one of your own criteria you have espoused. To interpret less clear OT passages with clearer NT passages.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Daniel has a far off view that can be cleared up with the NT. Except you insist that one must interpret all NT Scripture by using this one single verse. You then twist John 5 and make it conform to Daniel 12:2 as your alleged "corroboration". Always using Daniel 12:2 as your source for your circular reasoning. Jesus even explained that the hour now is, meaning that resurrection is ongoing, and not a singular point in time. But you keep insisting that Daniel 12:2 means only one singular hour. All your corroboration is; is circular reasoning.

We know that even Martha understood a last day resurrection: John 11:24

"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

What we cannot assume is did she learn that from Jesus or was that understood by all under the Law and Prophets.

Jesus was implying that the resurrection was already there in His reply:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

The being made alive part was already implemented at the Cross. The Cross was the last day resurrection of the OT Covenant. To deny that point is to deny a resurrection itself like the Sadducees did. The Cross literally fulfilled in part what Daniel was told in chapter 12.

"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Do you think that God understood that all those in Abraham's bosom had their names written in the Lamb's book of life? Lazarus experienced the first resurrection that day, because the hour was at hand and Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. Lazarus was the first to be made alive out of death as the firstfruits in Christ. A few weeks later the rest of those in Abraham's bosom were made alive because of the first resurrection.

That does not contradict Daniel 12:2. That gives us a clearer insight into what Daniel was told.
 

WPM

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No, the burden of proof is with you to support your claims:
Revelation 20 shows this! You cannot remove it from the text. You cannot even tell us who these billions of deceived wicked are who overrun your supposed future millennium and where they come from. It seems like you are living in denial because it exposes your beliefs.
 

Timtofly

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Gates is another word for portals, which is in the Bible. Where is the city?

@ewq1938 and where is the temple in the city?

@ewq1938 Why is there a high wall all around the city?

What's outside the wall?

What's inside the wall?
The New Jerusalem only exists in the next creation. John was taken by the Holy Spirit into a different reality that currently does not even exist.

Why many here apply the next reality to this reality goes beyond human understanding, sure.

But none of Revelation 21 even exist at the moment. The chapter does not show us current reality.

The current reality is that they have been physically enjoying Paradise since the Cross. Angels transport the soul from this body of death on earth, to God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. This body of death returns to dust, never to be seen again. The soul enjoys God's permanent incorruptible physical body until a time when God Himself replaces such a body.

Why are you asking questions about a future reality while not even fully understanding current reality? There is a temple in heaven, which is a current reality. They have been serving God day and night for almost 2 millennia while physically enjoying Paradise.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

This has been current creation since the Cross. When a redeemed soul leaves earth, it instantly enjoys what is mentioned in these verses. Those spiritual bodies in Paradise of God are just as physical as Jesus was as a baby in the womb and born from His earthly mother, Mary. The same physical body Jesus grew up with, was crucified and was resurrected. The difference is we don't show up as babies, or even as children. We are of the likeness of Adam and all sons of God created on the 6th day, whatever age and likeness that was. No one "ages" in Paradise. No one procreates in Paradise. It would seem that there are not even any relationships as no marrying and given in marriage also applies.
 

Timtofly

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Revelation 20 shows this! You cannot remove it from the text. You cannot even tell us who these billions of deceived wicked are who overrun your supposed future millennium and where they come from. It seems like you are living in denial because it exposes your beliefs.
Revelation 20 is void of your nonsensical arguments.

As you have yet to prove one of your made up allegations can be found in Revelation 20.

Satan is loosed after the Millennium. That is what is written. So how can you claim Satan was loose during the Millennium?
 

PinSeeker

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Pre-mill only point out that Revelation 20 is chronologically between Revelation 19 and Revelation 21.
Revelation 19:11-21 is (roughly speaking, because the focus is slightly different), analogous in timeframe to Revelation 20:7-10. Revelation 16:14,16 and Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 all depict this final battle.

But yes, this is basically the root of the problem. To use a golf analogy, the premillennialist's clubface is open at impact on the tee at the 18th hole, and this causes the huge banana slice into the woods and out of bounds, and therefore the two-stroke penalty that causes him to lose the tournament (The Great Revelation Invitational). :)

Revelation 20 is void of your nonsensical arguments.
It only seems so to premillennialists, because... well, see above.

Grace and peace to all.
 

Zao is life

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The New Jerusalem only exists in the next creation. John was taken by the Holy Spirit into a different reality that currently does not even exist.

Why many here apply the next reality to this reality goes beyond human understanding, sure.

But none of Revelation 21 even exist at the moment. The chapter does not show us current reality.

The current reality is that they have been physically enjoying Paradise since the Cross. Angels transport the soul from this body of death on earth, to God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. This body of death returns to dust, never to be seen again. The soul enjoys God's permanent incorruptible physical body until a time when God Himself replaces such a body.

Why are you asking questions about a future reality while not even fully understanding current reality? There is a temple in heaven, which is a current reality. They have been serving God day and night for almost 2 millennia while physically enjoying Paradise.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

This has been current creation since the Cross. When a redeemed soul leaves earth, it instantly enjoys what is mentioned in these verses. Those spiritual bodies in Paradise of God are just as physical as Jesus was as a baby in the womb and born from His earthly mother, Mary. The same physical body Jesus grew up with, was crucified and was resurrected. The difference is we don't show up as babies, or even as children. We are of the likeness of Adam and all sons of God created on the 6th day, whatever age and likeness that was. No one "ages" in Paradise. No one procreates in Paradise. It would seem that there are not even any relationships as no marrying and given in marriage also applies.
New Jerusalem is currently in heaven. Heaven currently exists. New Jerusalem will come down from God out of heaven when Jesus makes all things new. A new heavens and new earth.

For now New Jerusalem is on the current earth wherever the Spirit of Christ dwells. In each and every believer and follower of Christ. Collectively the church. We exist:

In a time suspended in between the coming of God's Anointed One and the coming of God's Anointed One;
in-between His Kingdom that has come and His Kingdom that is coming;
in-between His Kingdom that exists in the world and His Kingdom that will cover and rule the world;
in-between New Jerusalem that exists in the world and New Jerusalem that will come down from God out of heaven to the earth in the new heavens and new earth;
in-between all things having become new in Christ and all things being made new by Christ.
 

WPM

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Revelation 20 is void of your nonsensical arguments.

As you have yet to prove one of your made up allegations can be found in Revelation 20.

Satan is loosed after the Millennium. That is what is written. So how can you claim Satan was loose during the Millennium?

Why will you not talk about the billions of millennial phonies (as the sand of the sea) who rebel against Christ at the end of your millennium? Why will you not accept that they are grossly self deceived feigning worship to Christ during the duration of your millennium?
 
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covenantee

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A couple of rabbinical insights for premils:

“It is very clear that we see in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that he is fulfilling his destiny as Moshiach ben Yosef, that is to say, the reincarnation of Jonathan,” Rabbi Sudri told Breaking Israel News ... “The name ‘Netanyahu’ (נתניהו) is composed of the same letters as the name, “Jonathan (יהונתן).”

This sentiment was repeated by Rabbi Moshe Ben Tov, who after attaching a mezuzah in the prime minister’s office, made a remarkable statement to Netanyahu, “It is very important that your love of Israel continue until the Moshiach comes because you are going stay in office and are going to meet him. You are the one who will give him the keys to this office.”
 

Timtofly

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Revelation 19:11-21 is (roughly speaking, because the focus is slightly different), analogous in timeframe to Revelation 20:7-10. Revelation 16:14,16 and Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 all depict this final battle.

But yes, this is basically the root of the problem. To use a golf analogy, the premillennialist's clubface is open at impact on the tee at the 18th hole, and this causes the huge banana slice into the woods and out of bounds, and therefore the two-stroke penalty that causes him to lose the tournament (The Great Revelation Invitational). :)


It only seems so to premillennialists, because... well, see above.

Grace and peace to all.
Except that is human opinion forced into the words on a page. There is nothing inherent in the text to say what you propose. There were no verses nor chapters when John wrote, so all one long thought. Not broken up thoughts jumbled together.

There was never a battle at all in Revelation 20. You force one into the text. There was mention of many folks walking many thousands of miles to do battle, but they never arrived on some battlefield. They were incinerated before they could do anything.

But hey, if you can liken the event to your figurative golf game, any thing is possible in your imagination.

In Revelation 19 they were all gathered to Armageddon. They were defending Jerusalem from being taken back by Jesus as King. Satan was ruler over all the earth, not just released from a thousand years in some pit. He had been the 8th king for the last 42 months. Why would he deceive the nations to attack his own kingdom?
 

Timtofly

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Why will you not talk about the billions of millennial phonies (as the sand of the sea) who rebel against Christ at the end of your millennium? Why will you not accept that they are grossly self deceived feigning worship to Christ during the duration of your millennium?
Because these humans are only deceived after the thousand years. You are creating some kind of preconceived notion they want to be deceived.
 

Zao is life

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According to Revelation, does the new heavens and earth arrive before or after the millennium?
What's the beloved city in Revelation 20:9?

Where is the beloved city described in the Revelation?

 

WPM

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Because these humans are only deceived after the thousand years. You are creating some kind of preconceived notion they want to be deceived.

So, are they submitted to Christ during the whole duration of your millennium? Do they come and bring worship to Him in Jerusalem?