Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy

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Rich R

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I looked through the whole thread and was surprised not to see a few verses from Romans, Corinthians, and Thessalonians that are very relevant to the discussion.

It should be noted that these three books are specifically written to born again Christians. Paul is explaining what will happen to them. Revelation tells us what will happen to the Jews and Gentiles. It's a rather stark contrast.

1 Thess 4:14-17,

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.​
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.​
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

First of all, these verses do not mention a resurrection, raising someone from the dead. Christians are said to be "asleep." We were crucified with Christ and were given new life at the day of Pentecost (Col 2:12, et. al.) In other words, Christians have already experienced death and were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected. I'll be the first to admit that it's a lot to comprehend, but that's what it says.

These verses also say we will meet the Jesus in the air. At this point he has not come down to earth. That alone shows a huge distinction with both resurrections in Revelation where Jesus is judging after he comes to the earth.

1 Cor 15:51-53,

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.​
This sounds like nothing in Revelation. It's not a judgment at all. Also, like Thessalonians, there is nothing about a resurrection. The Greek word "raised" in v 52 is not the same as the word "resurrection" used in Revelation.

Rom 5:9,

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.​
Christians are saved from the coming wrath. The resurrections in Revelation occur after the wrath.

Not that I'm not immune from error what it comes to the scriptures (who isn't?), but I think a lot of doctrinal error regarding the end times (as well as other times) comes from mixing up Jews, Gentiles, and Christians. God has very different plans for each.
 

WPM

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I have no issue with those verses. You are the one twisting them. I agree that no one is left after the final harvest on earth in a state of death. But your climactic point of reference does not prevent the redeemed from living on the earth for a thousand years. The dead will not live on the earth during those thousand years. The dead will have been removed from off the earth.

What does preconceived mean in your argument? Is not your Amil teaching also preconceived and inserted into Scripture? You have to teach others how to interpret God's Word. That is preconceived thought placed in their minds so they can understand your view.

But those who inherit the perfected age and glorified earth to come must be suitably attired in perfection. This is a prerequisite to entered that new arrangement. You populate that age with countless mortal sinners that feign their allegiance to Christ and then rebel en-mass in their billions (as the sand of the sea) to follow their true master Satan.

1 Corinthians 15:21-26: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

The whole context of these passages is noticeably focused in on “the resurrection of the dead” and the termination of death. This is the time when corruption is banished from the earth forever.

But when does this happen?

Both of these passages demonstrate that this occurs at the “coming” (or parousia) of the Lord, which is described as “the last trump.” It also confirms that ushers in “the end.” This is the closing curtain of time, sin, corruption and mortality. We are now into eternity.

These texts show that for one to inherit the age and state to come, glorification is necessary: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The kingdom age to come (after this age) is perfect. It is incorrupt. Every vestige of the Fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. This eliminates the oft-stated Premillennial claim that the unsaved can in fact inhabit the new earth. Regardless of whether one is saved or not, if they aren’t glorified, they cannot inherit the new earth. No mortal will inhabit it.
 

Keraz

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The whole context of these passages is noticeably focused in on “the resurrection of the dead” and the termination of death. This is the time when corruption is banished from the earth forever.

But when does this happen?

Both of these passages demonstrate that this occurs at the “coming” (or parousia) of the Lord, which is described as “the last trump.” It also confirms that ushers in “the end.” This is the closing curtain of time, sin, corruption and mortality. We are now into eternity.
You avoid the definitive Prophecy which sets the actual time for Death to be no more. Revelation 21:4 makes it clear that only in the New heaven and Earth, will there be no deaths. AFTER the Millennium and the final Judgment, as described in Revelation 20

In the thousand year time between the Return of Jesus and the GWT Judgment, there will be death, Isaiah 65:20 and at the end of the Millennium, when God incinerates all the attackers of Jerusalem.
No one receives immortality before the Book of Life is opened.
 

WPM

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You avoid the definitive Prophecy which sets the actual time for Death to be no more. Revelation 21:4 makes it clear that only in the New heaven and Earth, will there be no deaths. AFTER the Millennium and the final Judgment, as described in Revelation 20

In the thousand year time between the Return of Jesus and the GWT Judgment, there will be death, Isaiah 65:20 and at the end of the Millennium, when God incinerates all the attackers of Jerusalem.
No one receives immortality before the Book of Life is opened.

When does the NHNE arrive in Revelation - before or after the millennium?
 

Timtofly

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You populate that age with countless mortal sinners that feign their allegiance to Christ and then rebel en-mass in their billions (as the sand of the sea) to follow their true master Satan.
No I don't. That is just a made up lie about me.
 

WPM

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No I don't. That is just a made up lie about me.
Who are these billions of wicked mortals that overrun your future millennium? What qualifies them to escape the wrath of God and enter into your “glorious” “sinless” millennium? Where do they come from? Who are the saints that they surround at the end? Where do they come from? How can they possibly be considered as sinless when they betray Christ and follow their master Satan?

You have skipped around these simple questions for a long time.
 

Keraz

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When does the NHNE arrive in Revelation - before or after the millennium?
AFTER Rev 20, the Return and the Millennium, comes Revelation 21:1 I saw the new heaven and a new earth.......
Any belief different, constitutes an adding to and a taking away from the Book of Revelation. Not advisable.
 

Timtofly

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Who are these billions of wicked mortals that overrun your future millennium? What qualifies them to escape the wrath of God and enter into your “glorious” “sinless” millennium? Where do they come from? Who are the saints that they surround at the end? Where do they come from? How can they possibly be considered as sinless when they betray Christ and follow their master Satan?

You have skipped around these simple questions for a long time.
You are a broken record. I have given you simple answers for a long time, and you keep forgetting them.

You have yet to address one of my answers, and then keep coming back to your own imagination of the Day of the Lord.

You cannot even see that you are lying about God's Word.
 

Hobie

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I looked through the whole thread and was surprised not to see a few verses from Romans, Corinthians, and Thessalonians that are very relevant to the discussion.

It should be noted that these three books are specifically written to born again Christians. Paul is explaining what will happen to them. Revelation tells us what will happen to the Jews and Gentiles. It's a rather stark contrast.

1 Thess 4:14-17,

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.​
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.​
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

First of all, these verses do not mention a resurrection, raising someone from the dead. Christians are said to be "asleep." We were crucified with Christ and were given new life at the day of Pentecost (Col 2:12, et. al.) In other words, Christians have already experienced death and were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected. I'll be the first to admit that it's a lot to comprehend, but that's what it says.

These verses also say we will meet the Jesus in the air. At this point he has not come down to earth. That alone shows a huge distinction with both resurrections in Revelation where Jesus is judging after he comes to the earth.

1 Cor 15:51-53,

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.​
This sounds like nothing in Revelation. It's not a judgment at all. Also, like Thessalonians, there is nothing about a resurrection. The Greek word "raised" in v 52 is not the same as the word "resurrection" used in Revelation.

Rom 5:9,

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.​
Christians are saved from the coming wrath. The resurrections in Revelation occur after the wrath.

Not that I'm not immune from error what it comes to the scriptures (who isn't?), but I think a lot of doctrinal error regarding the end times (as well as other times) comes from mixing up Jews, Gentiles, and Christians. God has very different plans for each.
What would call what Paul is saying, 'Jesus died and rose again'...
 

WPM

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You are a broken record. I have given you simple answers for a long time, and you keep forgetting them.

You have yet to address one of my answers, and then keep coming back to your own imagination of the Day of the Lord.

You cannot even see that you are lying about God's Word.
Who are these billions of wicked mortals that overrun your future millennium? What qualifies them to escape the wrath of God and enter into your “glorious” “sinless” millennium? Where do they come from? Who are the saints that they surround at the end? Where do they come from? How can they possibly be considered as sinless when they betray Christ and follow their master Satan?

You have skipped around these simple questions for a long time.

Your sinless sinners doctrine is ridiculous. It is anti-biblical, anti-truth and anti-commonsense. I don't know how you can seriously push it. To even imagine that a mortal (whether saved or not) has the capability not to sin runs contrary to numerous Scripture. Not that that is an obstacle to you. You admit you don't believe in the necessity of corroboration. With this belief you don't even have a proof-text.
 

Rich R

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Who are these billions of wicked mortals that overrun your future millennium? What qualifies them to escape the wrath of God and enter into your “glorious” “sinless” millennium? Where do they come from? Who are the saints that they surround at the end? Where do they come from? How can they possibly be considered as sinless when they betray Christ and follow their master Satan?

You have skipped around these simple questions for a long time.

Your sinless sinners doctrine is ridiculous. It is anti-biblical, anti-truth and anti-commonsense. I don't know how you can seriously push it. To even imagine that a mortal (whether saved or not) has the capability not to sin runs contrary to numerous Scripture. Not that that is an obstacle to you. You admit you don't believe in the necessity of corroboration. With this belief you don't even have a proof-text.
Rev 20:7-9,

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.​
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

Apparently some people will join Satan in a battle against God's people at the end of 1,000 years. A whole bunch actually; "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." In any case, it seems they did exist in the Millennial Kingdom and were not exactly saints. I'm open to any ideas you may have, but these verses seem pretty clear.
 

WPM

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Rev 20:7-9,

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.​
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

Apparently some people will join Satan in a battle against God's people at the end of 1,000 years. A whole bunch actually; "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." In any case, it seems they did exist in the Millennial Kingdom and were not exactly saints. I'm open to any ideas you may have, but these verses seem pretty clear.
These are all the wicked. I believe we are entering Satan's little season now, as we approach the climatic return of Christ.
 
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Rich R

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These are all the wicked. I believe we are entering Satan's little season now, as we approach the climatic return of Christ.
I'm sure ready for Jesus to come back. It'd be nice if you are right about that.

You got me to thinking and I remember reading this:

Rev 9:18,

By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.​
It says only 1/3 of the population was killed, so that left 2/3. That is before the 1,000 reign of Jesus, i.e. the millennial kingdom, so at least some of them will be alive during that reign of Jesus. There is no indication that all of them will be saints though. They will be regular mortal people just like we have now. They will live, have children, and die. Jesus will rule them with an iron rod and keep order, but some of those people can still defy him and continue to sin as they did in Rev 20:7-9.

Now there are some people mentioned in Rev 6 & 7 who are clothed with white robes, washed in the blood of Jesus, but I don't think they will be the ones to rise up with Satan at the end of the millennial kingdom. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's how it is.

Rev 20:9 says God toasts Satan and those who joined forces with him to oblivion. Only after that does God raise all the people that ever lived and judges them according to their deeds. I think that includes the Amazonian Indians and others who never heard of Jesus, but that's another story. If they are not found in the book of life, it's curtains for them. Only after all of that, does God create a new heavens and a new earth as outlined in Rev 21. That will be an everlasting kingdom and one in which there will be only holy people. Nobody will ever rebel against God again as they did at the end of millennial kingdom.

I think the main thing to understand is that there are two different kingdoms mentioned in Revelation, the millennial kingdom (Rev 20) and the everlasting kingdom (Rev 21). There are major differences between the two and ought not to be mixed up if we want to get at least somewhat of a clear picture of what lays ahead.
 

WPM

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I'm sure ready for Jesus to come back. It'd be nice if you are right about that.

You got me to thinking and I remember reading this:

Rev 9:18,

By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.​
It says only 1/3 of the population was killed, so that left 2/3. That is before the 1,000 reign of Jesus, i.e. the millennial kingdom, so at least some of them will be alive during that reign of Jesus. There is no indication that all of them will be saints though. They will be regular mortal people just like we have now. They will live, have children, and die. Jesus will rule them with an iron rod and keep order, but some of those people can still defy him and continue to sin as they did in Rev 20:7-9.

Now there are some people mentioned in Rev 6 & 7 who are clothed with white robes, washed in the blood of Jesus, but I don't think they will be the ones to rise up with Satan at the end of the millennial kingdom. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's how it is.

Rev 20:9 says God toasts Satan and those who joined forces with him to oblivion. Only after that does God raise all the people that ever lived and judges them according to their deeds. I think that includes the Amazonian Indians and others who never heard of Jesus, but that's another story. If they are not found in the book of life, it's curtains for them. Only after all of that, does God create a new heavens and a new earth as outlined in Rev 21. That will be an everlasting kingdom and one in which there will be only holy people. Nobody will ever rebel against God again as they did at the end of millennial kingdom.

I think the main thing to understand is that there are two different kingdoms mentioned in Revelation, the millennial kingdom (Rev 20) and the everlasting kingdom (Rev 21). There are major differences between the two and ought not to be mixed up if we want to get at least somewhat of a clear picture of what lays ahead.
So, I am sure we would all agree, the eternal kingdom has not arrived in all it majesty, perfection and glory. But the kingdom is present now spiritually. I would suggest that this is another proof that we are in Revelation 20 now.
 
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Rich R

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So, I am sure we would all agree, the eternal kingdom has not arrived in all it majesty, perfection and glory. But the kingdom is present now spiritually. I would suggest that this is another proof that we are in Revelation 20 now.
Don't you think the millennial kingdom comes after Satan is bound?

Rev 20:1-3,

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.​
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,​
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.​

After that:

Rev 20:4,

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​
So in the first three verses we read that Satan is bound. I don't see him as bound just yet. I would think things we see going on now wouldn't be happening if he was bound.

How do you understand the verses I quoted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 fit in with Revelation? Also check out Romans 5:9 which says, "we shall be saved from wrath through him." Might not that wrath be the tribulation talked about in the first part of Revelation? In other words, I don't believe Christians will be part of the tribulation at all. We will have been gathered together with Christ in the clouds and only after that do the events of Revelation occur. The bottom line is that Christians have nothing to do with Revelation. Revelation is God's dealings with Israel and Gentiles. It shows how God will finally fulfill the promises He made to Israel about an everlasting kingdom. He promised them such a kingdom of peace and prosperity over and over again in the OT. Clearly, we don't see anything at all like that today. Satan is still very much active in the world today.
 

WPM

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Don't you think the millennial kingdom comes after Satan is bound?

Rev 20:1-3,

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.​
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,​
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.​

After that:

Rev 20:4,

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​
So in the first three verses we read that Satan is bound. I don't see him as bound just yet. I would think things we see going on now wouldn't be happening if he was bound.

How do you understand the verses I quoted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 fit in with Revelation? Also check out Romans 5:9 which says, "we shall be saved from wrath through him." Might not that wrath be the tribulation talked about in the first part of Revelation? In other words, I don't believe Christians will be part of the tribulation at all. We will have been gathered together with Christ in the clouds and only after that do the events of Revelation occur. The bottom line is that Christians have nothing to do with Revelation. Revelation is God's dealings with Israel and Gentiles. It shows how God will finally fulfill the promises He made to Israel about an everlasting kingdom. He promised them such a kingdom of peace and prosperity over and over again in the OT. Clearly, we don't see anything at all like that today. Satan is still very much active in the world today.
The word deo means to bind in either a literal or a figurative way. The same word used to bind Satan in Revelation 20:2 is also used for the binding of Satan in Matthew 12:29 and Mark 3:27. Jesus is referring to the casting out of spirits from the demon possessed; he says that first the strongman must be bound and then you can plunder his goods. In Luke 10:17 the seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." Jesus responds by saying "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."
 
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Rich R

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But the kingdom is present now spiritually.
In some sense you may be right about that.

But I don't see any reason to spiritualize the millennial kingdom in Rev 20. From reading Isaiah and other prophets it would appear that the kingdom will be a very real, concrete kingdom. There will be real people who will build houses, plant gardens, tend animals, etc. It will be a place that someone like Abraham could see with his eyes, We can't see spirit with our eyes, so when God told Abraham to look at the land that was to be his, it must have been a real physical land.

It's also significant that when the king came, they killed him. It's hard to have a kingdom without a king. I would think therefore that the kingdom will not actually begin until Jesus returns the second time, not as a lamb led to slaughter, but as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
 

Rich R

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The word deo means to bind in either a literal or a figurative way. The same word used to bind Satan in Revelation 20:2 is also used for the binding of Satan in Matthew 12:29 and Mark 3:27. Jesus is referring to the casting out of spirits from the demon possessed; he says that first the strongman must be bound and then you can plunder his goods. In Luke 10:17 the seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." Jesus responds by saying "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."
Well you are onto somthing there. However, it's been 2,000 years since the events in Matthew and Mark. Since Satan was bound for 1,000 years (Rev 20:3), that would mean he was released in the 11th century. So between the 1st and 11th century Satan was bound? What changed during those thousand years? Seems like nothing to me. Man was generally as bad as ever. Surely we'll have something better when Jesus actually comes and sets up his kingdom. If not, I for one am profoundly disappointed.
 

WPM

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In some sense you may be right about that.

But I don't see any reason to spiritualize the millennial kingdom in Rev 20. From reading Isaiah and other prophets it would appear that the kingdom will be a very real, concrete kingdom. There will be real people who will build houses, plant gardens, tend animals, etc. It will be a place that someone like Abraham could see with his eyes, We can't see spirit with our eyes, so when God told Abraham to look at the land that was to be his, it must have been a real physical land.

It's also significant that when the king came, they killed him. It's hard to have a kingdom without a king. I would think therefore that the kingdom will not actually begin until Jesus returns the second time, not as a lamb led to slaughter, but as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Can you quote the texts in question?