Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy

[Hobie]

New Jerusalem is currently in heaven. Heaven currently exists. New Jerusalem will come down from God out of heaven when Jesus makes all things new. A new heavens and new earth.

For now New Jerusalem is on the current earth wherever the Spirit of Christ dwells. In each and every believer and follower of Christ. Collectively the church. We exist:

In a time suspended in between the coming of God's Anointed One and the coming of God's Anointed One;
in-between His Kingdom that has come and His Kingdom that is coming;
in-between His Kingdom that exists in the world and His Kingdom that will cover and rule the world;
in-between New Jerusalem that exists in the world and New Jerusalem that will come down from God out of heaven to the earth in the new heavens and new earth;
in-between all things having become new in Christ and all things being made new by Christ.

Sounds like a variation of the ideas of Benny Hinn and friends..

 

[Zao is life]

Sounds like a variation of the ideas of Benny Hinn and friends..

Your claim is false and using such statements to brush aside anything that disagrees with your ideas in any way smacks of the kind of thing false teachers always do.

It should be beneath you. But since it isn't, this is cause for concern regarding anything you say.

Be careful though because lots of people can start naming the names of false teachers when talking about your doctrines and how close some of them are to the doctrines of false teachers, because lots of people disagree with you.

 

[Timtofly]

So, are they submitted to Christ during the whole duration of your millennium? Do they come and bring worship to Him in Jerusalem?

I already pointed out they were of the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium. They were at "the edges", the four corners of the quarters of the earth, as far from the beloved city one can get. So, no, the last two generations were not alive for the entire Day of the Lord.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, And they went up on the breadth of the earth,"

Why are you trying to place thoughts and ideology into minds that exist after all see Jesus as King on the earth? You seem to base your argument still on faith and belief. Not that all kingdoms have already been brought under the direct control of Jesus as their King. This is not in thought. This is a physical reign after the Second Coming.

What does it mean to bring worship to Him in Jerusalem, since you mention that point?
That sounds similar to Zechariah 14:17

"And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

This says they have no rain, not that they are deceived. Direct disobedience while not deceieved is not the same as following Satan while being deceived by Satan. Are you admitting Jesus is physically on the earth? Who is the King, the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem?

 

[WPM]

I already pointed out they were of the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium. They were at "the edges", the four corners of the quarters of the earth, as far from the beloved city one can get. So, no, the last two generations were not alive for the entire Day of the Lord.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, And they went up on the breadth of the earth,"

Why are you trying to place thoughts and ideology into minds that exist after all see Jesus as King on the earth? You seem to base your argument still on faith and belief. Not that all kingdoms have already been brought under the direct control of Jesus as their King. This is not in thought. This is a physical reign after the Second Coming.

What does it mean to bring worship to Him in Jerusalem, since you mention that point?
That sounds similar to Zechariah 14:17

"And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

This says they have no rain, not that they are deceived. Direct disobedience while not deceieved is not the same as following Satan while being deceived by Satan. Are you admitting Jesus is physically on the earth? Who is the King, the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say Gog and Magog "were of the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium"?
Where in Revelation 20 does it say "the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium" .. were at the edges, the four corners of the quarters of the earth, as far from the beloved city one can get"?

 

[Timtofly]

Where in Rev 20 does it say "they were of the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium"?
Where in Rev 20 does it say they are "the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium"?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say who they even were? They had to cross the breadth of the earth. Which generation would have to travel to get to Jerusalem after a thousand year period?

 

[WPM]

Where in Revelation 20 does it say who they even were? They had to cross the breadth of the earth. Which generation would have to travel to get to Jerusalem after a thousand year period?

You are clearly making it up as you go. The Bible does not teach that, you do. You have nothing of evidential worth to bring to the table.

• Where in Revelation 20 does it say Gog and Magog "were of the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium"?
• Where in Revelation 20 does it say "the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium" .. were at the edges, the four corners of the quarters of the earth, as far from the beloved city one can get"?

 

[Timtofly]

You are clearly making it up as you go. The Bible does not teach that, you do. You have nothing of evidential worth to bring to the table.

• Where in Revelation 20 does it say Gog and Magog "were of the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium"?
• Where in Revelation 20 does it say "the last two generations born at the end of the Millennium" .. were at the edges, the four corners of the quarters of the earth, as far from the beloved city one can get"?

Right there in the text. Perhaps you should look up how the Greeks viewed Gog and Magog?

"Gog, in Ezekiel a king of Magog, a land of the remote north; hence, in Revelation, of a people far remote from Palestine."

"Magog, a foreign nation."

If the Millennium starts with people living in and around Jerusalem only, ie, that first generation, what would you expect to happen 800 years later, as people are spreading out across the earth generation after generation? At 900 years you have people as far away and foreign as one can get from Jerusalem.

You yourself claim all the wicked are destroyed at the Second Coming. Are you making that up as you go? If there are people on the earth, where would you expect them to come from, other than their parents? The rocks and stones?

Your ad hominem remarks show you lack common sense of normal life on earth. There has been a population explosion on earth in only 200 years. Now remove sin, and the natural causes of death, which Jesus has removed from the earth after removing the bondage of sin on nature at the Second Coming. Why would Jesus reign over wickedness in creation, after destroying all the wicked? Do you think it actually takes a thousand years of trial and experiment for Jesus to finally "get it right"?

 

[WPM]

Right there in the text. Perhaps you should look up how the Greeks viewed Gog and Magog?

"Gog, in Ezekiel a king of Magog, a land of the remote north; hence, in Revelation, of a people far remote from Palestine."

"Magog, a foreign nation."

If the Millennium starts with people living in and around Jerusalem only, ie, that first generation, what would you expect to happen 800 years later, as people are spreading out across the earth generation after generation? At 900 years you have people as far away and foreign as one can get from Jerusalem.

You yourself claim all the wicked are destroyed at the Second Coming. Are you making that up as you go? If there are people on the earth, where would you expect them to come from, other than their parents? The rocks and stones?

Your ad hominem remarks show you lack common sense of normal life on earth. There has been a population explosion on earth in only 200 years. Now remove sin, and the natural causes of death, which Jesus has removed from the earth after removing the bondage of sin on nature at the Second Coming. Why would Jesus reign over wickedness in creation, after destroying all the wicked? Do you think it actually takes a thousand years of trial and experiment for Jesus to finally "get it right"?

The observer will see that you make it us as you go. This is nowhere in the inspired text, as you know. You cannot answer any of these simple questions. I will try another:

Where is "Jerusalem" mentioned in Rev 20?

You do not seem to recognize the figurative nature of the book of Revelation. Gog and Magog, like Babylon, Jerusalem, Egypt, Sodom, and Armageddon are used as recognized Old Testament symbols to represent New Testament truths.

 

[Timtofly]

The observer will see that you make it us as you go. This is nowhere in the inspired text, as you know. You cannot answer any of these simple questions. I will try another:

Where is "Jerusalem" mentioned in Rev 20?

You do not seem to recognize the figurative nature of the book of Revelation. Gog and Magog, like Babylon, Jerusalem, Egypt, Sodom, and Armageddon are used as recognized Old Testament symbols to represent New Testament truths.

Now you are just making it up as you go. You did not even address a single point I made.

"compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city"

Now can you tell me what city is represented by the symbolism of "the beloved city"? So, where is the Second Coming in Revelation 20, since you are on a roll of making up excuses, why you cannot address the Scripture presented?

This: "recognized Old Testament symbols to represent New Testament truths" seems vague and you just trying to avoid the reality of the Millennium. The New Testament truth is that Gog and Magog represent those last few generations of humans born in the millennium as far from Jerusalem as one can get. That is not even my thoughts made up. That is the quote from Biblehub quoting Strongs.

Now, can you tell me where Armageddon is found in the OT as a symbol of what NT truth?

I answered your "misleading" questions. You don't like the answers from God's Word. Then you accuse me of writing stuff that is not in the chapter, but seems pretty straightforward, as you, yourself claim "Revelation is written with OT symbolism". The problem is you dismiss the NT truth, and make up your own misleading theories of why God cannot do as He claims in His Word.

 

[WPM]

Now you are just making it up as you go. You did not even address a single point I made.

"compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city"

Now can you tell me what city is represented by the symbolism of "the beloved city"? So, where is the Second Coming in Revelation 20, since you are on a roll of making up excuses, why you cannot address the Scripture presented?

This: "recognized Old Testament symbols to represent New Testament truths" seems vague and you just trying to avoid the reality of the Millennium. The New Testament truth is that Gog and Magog represent those last few generations of humans born in the millennium as far from Jerusalem as one can get. That is not even my thoughts made up. That is the quote from Biblehub quoting Strongs.

Now, can you tell me where Armageddon is found in the OT as a symbol of what NT truth?

I answered your "misleading" questions. You don't like the answers from God's Word. Then you accuse me of writing stuff that is not in the chapter, but seems pretty straightforward, as you, yourself claim "Revelation is written with OT symbolism". The problem is you dismiss the NT truth, and make up your own misleading theories of why God cannot do as He claims in His Word.

You never present direct biblical evidence. You only present your only opinions. That is why you cannot furnish any Scripture to support your claims. Jerusalem is not mentioned in Rev 20. The "camp of the saints" and "the beloved city" are obviously the redeemed. They are the beloved of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

You never present direct biblical evidence. You only present your only opinions. That is why you cannot furnish any Scripture to support your claims. Jerusalem is not mentioned in Rev 20. The "camp of the saints" and "the beloved city" are obviously the redeemed. They are the beloved of the Lord.

And the redeemed just live in tents?

The Second Coming is not mentioned in Revelation 20 either.

 

[WPM]

And the redeemed just live in tents?

Where does it say that? It is a figurative phrase describing the people of God.

This is the problem with Premil hermeneutics: they are all over the place. There is no consistency with them. They do not recognize the symbolic setting of Revelation. They therefore literalize what is figurative and spiritualize what is literal in order to let Premil fit.

1. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
2. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
3. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metallic door key?
4. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
5. Do you believe demons need to be detained in literal metal chains in order to be restrained?

The Second Coming is not mentioned in Revelation 20 either.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the heavens pass away / perish with a great noise?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the elements be ‘loosed by being set on fire’?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the works that are within the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly?

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming.

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Amils go with Jesus, Peter and John here rather than you.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does it say that? It is a figurative phrase describing the people of God.

This is the problem with Premil hermeneutics: they are all over the place. There is no consistency with them. They do not recognize the symbolic setting of Revelation. They therefore literalize what is figurative and spiritualize what is literal in order to let Premil fit.

1. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
2. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
3. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metallic door key?
4. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
5. Do you believe demons need to be detained in literal metal chains in order to be restrained?

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the heavens pass away / perish with a great noise?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the elements be ‘loosed by being set on fire’?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the works that are within the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly?

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming.

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Amils go with Jesus, Peter and John here rather than you.

Obviously heaven and earth flee away after the Millennium. None of what you said is found in Revelation 20 about the Millennium itself, so why ask leading questions if you won't allow other Scripture to interpret the Millennium?

The Millennium is a literal time frame with literal humans and life on earth. You have avoided that point like Revelation 20 is not talking about life on earth at all.

Amil don't go with Scripture either, because they refuse to place the Millennium between the Second Coming and the GWT Judgment.

Nor do they have a good reason why they do what they do.

The Day of the Lord is coming and both Peter and John point out that the day of the Lord will last 1,000 years.

You have yet to prove a Second Coming happens any where in Revelation 20.

 

[WPM]

Obviously heaven and earth flee away after the Millennium. None of what you said is found in Revelation 20 about the Millennium itself, so why ask leading questions if you won't allow other Scripture to interpret the Millennium?

The Millennium is a literal time frame with literal humans and life on earth. You have avoided that point like Revelation 20 is not talking about life on earth at all.

Amil don't go with Scripture either, because they refuse to place the Millennium between the Second Coming and the GWT Judgment.

Nor do they have a good reason why they do what they do.

The Day of the Lord is coming and both Peter and John point out that the day of the Lord will last 1,000 years.

You have yet to prove a Second Coming happens any where in Revelation 20.

I showed you the second coming at the end of the millennium. You ignored that.

 

[Timtofly]

I showed you the second coming at the end of the millennium. You ignored that.

No you did not. 2 Peter 3 does not explicitly say heaven and earth pass away. Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal has the heavens rolled back as a scroll , but not passing away. All the stars coming to earth leave heaven in a different state, but not passed away. The Second Coming has never been when heaven and earth pass away. As the stars fall from the sky as the angels, it will look like heaven is dissolved in a huge fire, but the fire is only the formation of the LOF. The earth does not pass away, just all the works are burned up.

"in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" Peter.

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together." John.

Peter is pointing out the baptism of fire and it looks like heaven passes away, but which heaven? When all the stars leave heaven it will look like heaven is gone, but it will be empty. This is not the same as Revelation 20 when creation no longer exists. You have the Second Coming after Satan is cast into the LOF. Except the Second Coming was at the 6th Seal when all the works on earth were burned up. The 6th Seal is not heaven and earth passing away and only the GWT, sheol, and death left standing. There is still the opening of the 7th Seal and all the Trumpets and Thunders. Revelation 19 is not even the Second Coming.

You pointed out the creation is no longer in existence. But that happens over a thousand years after the Second Coming. Besides the point was nothing I pointed out was mentioned in Revelation 20. Well neither is the Second Coming. You have to insert the Second Coming in the chapter and it does not belong there. At least my explanation was how life progresses on the earth for a thousand years.

 

[Lizbeth]

The first resurrection has already occurred.

1. Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?
2. Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?
3. Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?
4. Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

Amen, I believe this needs to be considered. At least I've been trying it on for size.

And at His resurrection, OT saints were resurrected too....this is all the first resurrection that believers will also have a part in one day.

Mat 27:52-53

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Only the faithful from before Christ who were receiving salvation (inheriting eternal life) were resurrected at that time - but not the rest of the dead yet The rest of the dead (lost souls from before Christ) will be raised to receive judgment after the end of THIS age, which I believe is the "thousand years" spoken of. This is the first resurrection that faithful believers from after Christ will have a part in, and lost souls from after Christ will have their part in the second resurrection which doesn't take place until the end of this age.

 

[WPM]

No you did not. 2 Peter 3 does not explicitly say heaven and earth pass away. Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal has the heavens rolled back as a scroll , but not passing away. All the stars coming to earth leave heaven in a different state, but not passed away. The Second Coming has never been when heaven and earth pass away. As the stars fall from the sky as the angels, it will look like heaven is dissolved in a huge fire, but the fire is only the formation of the LOF. The earth does not pass away, just all the works are burned up.

"in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" Peter.

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together." John.

Peter is pointing out the baptism of fire and it looks like heaven passes away, but which heaven? When all the stars leave heaven it will look like heaven is gone, but it will be empty. This is not the same as Revelation 20 when creation no longer exists. You have the Second Coming after Satan is cast into the LOF. Except the Second Coming was at the 6th Seal when all the works on earth were burned up. The 6th Seal is not heaven and earth passing away and only the GWT, sheol, and death left standing. There is still the opening of the 7th Seal and all the Trumpets and Thunders. Revelation 19 is not even the Second Coming.

You pointed out the creation is no longer in existence. But that happens over a thousand years after the Second Coming. Besides the point was nothing I pointed out was mentioned in Revelation 20. Well neither is the Second Coming. You have to insert the Second Coming in the chapter and it does not belong there. At least my explanation was how life progresses on the earth for a thousand years.

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How possibly could the wicked survive the second coming and escape the universal conflagration and wholesale destruction? They cannot! It's impossible! The second coming is clearly the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

Premillennialists are forced to dilute the nature of the devastation, localize its extent to a particular region of the globe or spiritualize away the destruction of the wicked completely as a non-literal abstract allegory.

The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, but there is no spiritualization that can explain this depiction away. It is so water-tight.

What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premillennialists are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premillennialists couldn’t wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premillennialists, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

 

[Hobie]

Your claim is false and using such statements to brush aside anything that disagrees with your ideas in any way smacks of the kind of thing false teachers always do.

It should be beneath you. But since it isn't, this is cause for concern regarding anything you say.

Be careful though because lots of people can start naming the names of false teachers when talking about your doctrines and how close some of them are to the doctrines of false teachers, because lots of people disagree with you.

Well, the scripture is clear the New Jerusalem is in heaven, dont add or put in private interpretations to corrupt the truth or you put yourself on their ground.

 

[Lizbeth]

Well, the scripture is clear the New Jerusalem is in heaven, dont add or put in private interpretations to corrupt the truth or you put yourself on their ground.

But we were "born in her"....heavenly Zion/New Jerusalem. The Jerusalem that is "above" is our mother.....but we didn't have to "go to heaven" to be born again. The city that is above sort of comes down to earth within the believer when we are born of her. God's will being done on "earth" as it is in "heaven". Heaven is a realm that is in the spirit, and it is here, "nigh thee" , not in separate geographical place that is far away. Don't want to be argumentative, but hoping to be helpful to this discussion.

Rom 10:6-8

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[Timtofly]

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How possibly could the wicked survive the second coming and escape the universal conflagration and wholesale destruction? They cannot! It's impossible! The second coming is clearly the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

Premillennialists are forced to dilute the nature of the devastation, localize its extent to a particular region of the globe or spiritualize away the destruction of the wicked completely as a non-literal abstract allegory.

The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, but there is no spiritualization that can explain this depiction away. It is so water-tight.

What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premillennialists are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premillennialists couldn’t wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premillennialists, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

I have no issue with those verses. You are the one twisting them. I agree that no one is left after the final harvest on earth in a state of death. But your climactic point of reference does not prevent the redeemed from living on the earth for a thousand years. The dead will not live on the earth during those thousand years. The dead will have been removed from off the earth.

What does preconceived mean in your argument? Is not your Amil teaching also preconceived and inserted into Scripture? You have to teach others how to interpret God's Word. That is preconceived thought placed in their minds so they can understand your view.