Unethical treatment of LGBTQ humans / Understanding LGBTQ - 101

[Wrangler]

God making people gay and therefore with a proclivity to sinfulness is exactly the concern I am wrestling with

Putting aside any particular sin, we were made noble creatures with the capacity to choose. This was a great risk on our Creator's part for he could have made us mindless automatons who worship him robotically, lacking any "program" to do otherwise.

With this nature of limited self-determination, we may choose in a manner our Creator does not endorse. The limit of our self-determination is that while we have the power to choose, we have no power over the consequences of that choice. Today's spoiled, dumbed-down people covet the power to choose AND the power over what consequences will be imposed; we want what never was and can never be.

Sex is merely an area where sin is possible, not unique from any other area of the human experience. The option is the same. Are we going to choose in alignment with God's will or will we give in to what tempts us? Not everyone is equally tempted by the same sin. For some it is sex. For others, food. For others, the temptation is anger. Others are tempted by money or drugs or laziness, etc.

The "God made me this way" cop out could be invoked in every instance. The irony is the cop out denies our capacity to choose, suggests we are reduced to mere stimulus-response creatures lacking any sort of self-control. If this is true, it naturally follows we ought to abolish all law for it is rooted in having self-control, i.e., systems of justice are based on a false premise IF the cop out is true.

Double irony: If people cannot control their urges, not only does it mean sexual perversions are beyond our control, there is no basis for condemning those who "unethically treat" the alphabet people since they also cannot control their urges.

Because today's spoiled, dumbed-down people seek to escape responsibility that comes with choice, they yearn to blame the Creator, the church, rascally Republicans, White Supremacists, etc. It shows the level of maturity.

 

[amigo de christo]

A baby in a crib wants sodomy?

Really?

"born that way"?

Im not certain if you are able to really think clearly, regarding.......what you keep redundantly saying @RedFan

So, i'll leave you to it.

And we dont need you to come back and say.."well, what i meant was, when they are about 8, 12, 14"..

Geez.

Red fan is running out of gas . The question is not if one is born this way or that way
but rather IS WHAT THEY are doing , PLEASING TO GOD or sin .
Now many will say this or that and say often and daily , oh we know so much more in this day and age
about homosexuality as they pander to society to get the approval .
But much learning , much science , much physcology and much wisdom
and yet
and yet
As much as man has learned about things throughout time , DO HE KNOW more than GOD .
and thus we have to ask ourselves
HOW DOES GOD VIEW this or that . and then base our opinion , our stance on WHAT HE SAY ABOUT IT .
its that simple .
Now redfan and others are gonna keep tooting the born that way or etc
but always remember the question is DO GOD APPROVE . DOES GOD APPROVE OF SIN . And i think we both know the answer
to that .
Thus no matter what society deems , no matter what the world or its religoins deems as right or wrong or etc .
THE ONLY ONE ENTITLED TO HIS OPINION , THE ONLY ONE whose WORD IS TRUTH . IS GOD . HE GETS the FIRST
and the FINAL SAY on all things . its really that simple . Now raise up those hands and let all praise n thank the LORD .

 

[Wrangler]

I am asking that we lower the draw bridge, remove the gators from the moat, and stop shooting arrows at them while they approach.

No one is doing this.

No sin is acceptable to God. Only those who are repentant can be saved. And this is the basic objection with the alphabet people. Murderers tend not to demand being allowed to keep murdering as a condition to be accepted in church. In this respect, the alphabet people are worse than murderers! They demand to be accepted and saved while in their sin.

Explaining this is an act of love, not an act of hate - even though the truth feels like hate to those who are comfortable with the lie their sin is good.

 

[amigo de christo]

God created mankind in His image. God did not make people to be gay. We all live in a fallen and corrupt world and so it is the result of sin in the world and not God that they are gay.

Why does God get blamed for everything? Peeople like to blame God. Aint it just aint so Brother.

Besides, if God did make some people gay, then why would He tell them in Leviticus that being gay is wrong? God dont do that sort of thing, He is a holy and just God.

Man do as man do to justify why he do as he do . But the sheep of JESUS CHRIST simply gonna do as GOD bids them to do .
thus its time to understand .
No one can prove through carnal wisdom the question of whether they were born this way or not .
And this is why the devil put the question into place so as to get the approval within the church and societies .
We cando this all day . We know GOD did not create them TO SIN . But they do not know this .
THUS the question must become
ask not if they were born this way
rather ask yourself , DO GOD APPROVE OF SIN . No matter
what they try and say , no mattter if the cliam be i was born this way
the answer , GOD DONT APPROVE OF ANY SIN .
The slippery slope is to get people to believe or at least question whether or not they were born this way
as a means to silence ANY correction of it and rather get the ACCEPTANCE of it .
So from now on when anyone tries to bring the topic up of whether or not they were born this way
ALWAYS REMIND them , GOD dont approve of sin , thus we dont approve of sin .
Correction .

 

[Lambano]

3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?

Only those who are repentant can be saved.

And there you have it. Is Christ's atoning sacrifice both necessary and sufficient for salvation? Or is some human response also necessary? To whom are the saving effects of Christ's sacrifice attributed?

 

[MatthewG]

The issues I see is can a person who believes in the death, burial, and resurrection be okay with God or not, even despite their disposition.

Many people rag on the gays today, looking at what the pride parade, and stuff. I personally am not a fan of they do wordly, they still have a heart.

But people today rather have revenge, get those queers on an island by their self. Or get all the child molesters on an island by their self. Let them all rot and die type of attitude!

Gods gonna get them! By golly! They are gonna pay for being gay…


It’s normally people who are authorities of the Bible who say no way God will ever work on them period hands down like they themselves are God…

Isn’t a person more than their flesh?

 

[MatthewG]

Paul was a murderer and prayed three times for his problem to be released from his but it never was and he was okay with God. His problem could have been anything at all, we don’t really know. Some say his eyes but we really don’t know, what his issue was he never told us.

 

[MatthewG]

But many people say you must be perfect! You must be perfect before you can ever get to God.

All that is bs.

 

[amigo de christo]

And there you have it. Is Christ's atoning sacrifice both necessary and sufficient for salvation? Or is some human response also necessary? To whom is the saving effects of Christ's sacrifice attributed?

For GOD so loved the world that HE SENT His only begotten SON that all who do ..................
that all who do ...............
BELIEVE would not perish but have everlasting life .
Yet if the jesus we came to supports our sin , THEN IT AINT JESUS THE CHRIST who is NO MINISTIR OF SIN .
we came to another jesus . paul warned about another gospel and another jesus too .
SO . shall we continue in sin , GOD FORBID
dont you know that to whom we YIELD ourselves servants to OBEY is whose we are ..........
Dont ye know that ..........................will not inherit the KINGDOM of GOD
be not partakers of their sins , dont support their sins , rather expose the sins and point to THE JESUS CHRIST of GOD
and not the jesus created of men in the image of what man loveth .

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?

And there you have it. Is Christ's atoning sacrifice both necessary and sufficient for salvation? Or is some human response also necessary? To whom is the saving effects of Christ's sacrifice attributed?

Well... I admittedly have a UR bias.
This scripture below answers the question.
(Is Christ's atoning sacrifice both necessary and sufficient for salvation?)

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

However...
There will be a human response.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth
and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation,
acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.
Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

/

 

[amigo de christo]

Paul was a murderer and prayed three times for his problem to be released from his but it never was and he was okay with God. His problem could have been anything at all, we don’t really know. Some say his eyes but we really don’t know, what his issue was he never told us.

A REPENTANT MURDERER .
and as far as his problem , IT WAS NOT a SIN PROBLEM mathew .
HE was suffering some form of infirmity . It wasnt like paul was praying to GOD to remove a certain sin
and then GOD WOULD NOT REMOVE that SIN from him . That makes ZERO sense mathew .
IT was not a sin paul was praying about . GOD would have given paul power over a sin , not told him he would not help paul .
No mathew . this generation is becoming way too inclusive and is following a sensual love of the world and that love
is destroying both them and their testimony and it will be their end , IF they repent not
and learn to FOLLOW CHRIST . SO now i leave us with the words of paul , that the SPIRIT inspired ,
LET all who name the name of CHRIST depart from inquity .

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you think of God's Word? That seems to be the crux of the matter here.

The key scripture used to make a claim against homosexual relations
is found in Leviticus chapter eighteen and verse twenty. What else is in that chapter?
The chapter details out every conceivable combination of incestuous relations imaginable.
Covers bestiality too.

But then (two verses before verse 20) we find this lone verse dealing with polygamy.
Polygamy is ONLY forbidden when a man takes his wife's sister as a rival wife.

Leviticus 18:18 NIV
Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have
sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?

It seems there is a lot that we don't understand about sexuality in ancient times.
Where are the commandments against owning sex slaves?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

No sin is acceptable to God. Only those who are repentant can be saved. And this is the basic objection with the alphabet people. Murderers tend not to demand being allowed to keep murdering as a condition to be accepted in church. In this respect, the alphabet people are worse than murderers! They demand to be accepted and saved while in their sin.

"No one is doing this." - LOL
(as you would say)
We seem to both be guilty of a wee bit of exaggeration.
Generalizations really don't work for this subject.

So, you really think the church has NOT raised the draw bridge,
put gators from the moat, and been shooting arrows at them while they approach?
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Some of you refer to LGBTQ as "alphabet people".
Do all of those letters necessarily represent sin?

- What if a lesbian individual isn't acting on same-sex urges? (the "L" in LGBTQ)
- What if a gay individual isn't acting on same-sex urges? (the "G" in LGBTQ)
- What if a bisexual individual isn't acting on same-sex urges? (the "B" in LGBTQ)
- What about a 3 to 5 year old child that prefers opposite gender toys? (the "T" in LGBTQ)
- Not sure what to claim about "Q". - LOL

The "Q" can stand for either queer, or questioning... Is questioning a sin?

'

 

[Peterlag]

I'm still trying to help Christians understand this COMPLEX issue that they have reduced to a knee-jerk reaction.
Notice the term "LGBTQ humans" in the topic title. I need to remind Christians that these people are human. - Sigh.
Because they are typically treated by Christians as subhuman.

In my previous topic, WWJD with LGBTQ, I tried to inform forum members about what I knew about the subject.
--- If you wonder where I am coming from, that's a good place to start. ---

The level of ignorance on this subject is substantial.
And more than that, the level of aggression toward those humans with these issues.
And EVEN more than that, the aggression toward anyone, like myself who would DARE
to stand up to defend these precious ones that Jesus gave his life for.
Recently I have been accused of being a "homo" (I'm not) and for "lying" (I didn't) about being a Christian (in Christ). - Sigh.

Therefore, the Ethics & Morality Forum seemed appropriate. This has become an issue of Ethics & Morality.

Understanding LGBTQ - 101 / Terminology:
(note: we don't need to AGREE with these terms, but we do need to understand them)
I'm not an expert by any stretch; but this is what I have learned to date.

Birth Sex: The sex/gender you were born with.
Determined by the presence of male or female genitalia.
A small percentage are born with dual genitalia (asexual) or genitalia abnormalities.
See "Gender Assigned at Birth" below.

Gender Assigned at Birth: Now part of the paperwork doctors are required to fill out.
Allowing for parents to assign Non-Binary gender on the birth certificate.
Previously this was reserved for doctors and parents (hopefully) in cases of
dual genitalia (asexual) or genitalia abnormalities. (this subject is new to me)

Gender Identity: In most cases gender is determined by birth sex.
But as we have all seen, hormonal imbalances can give us a broad range of maleness and femaleness.
There are very masculine females and very feminine males. and everything in between.
See Gender Roles and Gender Dysphoria below.

Gender Roles: We see early signs of children gravitating toward gender specific interests.
Typically girls play with dolls and boys prefer trucks. But not always. Happens as early as 3 to 5 years.
We have seen a lot of evening out in this area. Opportunities for women in typically male roles.
Things have gone in the other direction as well. With more and more stay-at-home Dads.

Gender Dysphoria: The situation where a birth sex male feels that they are a female in a male body.
Or a birth sex female feels that they are a male in a female body. Usually realized in adolescence.
However, some children as young as 3 to 5 years old are acting on strong urges to opposite gender behavior.
Unfortunate, this has been OVER-STRESSED in recent years to epidemic proportions.
Gender identity is being pushed on anyone with a hormonal balance in either direction.
And has become popular in teen culture to pursue gender identity opposite their birth sex.

Transgender: A range of reactions to gender dysphoria. Manifesting in anything from
clothing and hair style preferences and name change to gender reassignment surgery.

Sexual Orientation: Attraction to opposite sex, or same-sex partners.
Note: Transgenderism does NOT automatically effect a change in sexual orientation.

Monogamous Relationships:
A couple in a lifetime commitment to each other regardless of sexual orientation.

Again, we don't need to AGREE with these terms, but we do need to UNDERSTAND them
in order to have any meaningful relationships with LGBTQ humans.

Discussion questions:
Please use the terminology laid about above in the discussion, thanks.

1) Were LGBTQ humans created in the image of God?
2) Does God love LGBTQ humans?
3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?
4) Has the church recognized these factors?
5) Has the church acted accordingly?
6) What is your church, or fellowship, doing about this issue?
7) What can you do personally to grapple with this issue?

/

Put me down on record as one who does not believe there's a human on the planet that's born in the wrong body. The Old Testament and the New are very clear on this. The LGBTO folks are insane. Literally. It's called a mental illness. If you're 18 and you think you are another sex. Then you have a mental illness. If you're 8 and think you are another sex. Then your mother has a mental illness.

 

[MA2444]

God making people gay and therefore with a proclivity to sinfulness is exactly the concern I am wrestling with -- and that Paul alluded to in telling the Romans that the clay doesn't ask the Potter "why did you make me this way?" You need to acknowledge that our "holy and just God," as you put it, is the same God who punishes children and grandchildren and great grandchildren for the sins of a father (Ex. 34:7, Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9). There are some things we just can't understand about God's intentions for particular people. Ask Job..

I can see that I guess. God does work in mysterious ways at times. However, just because we dont understand something doesnt mean that it is God or that we blame God for it. Why is God's fault now just because you might not understand what He is doing?

 

[MA2444]

We ALL have a proclivity to sinfulness, whether it's sexual sin or some other sins. The Reformers got the Depravity thing right; just watch the 11:00 news. Or read some of the posts on this forum. I hope nobody is under the delusion that mankind is inherently good and doesn't need a savior.

So ever ask, "Why are we the way we are?" Yeah, sentient clay does ask the Potter, "Why have you made me thus?"

You make a good point. We all have a proclivity to sin because we were born into a fallen world. God did not make Adam & Eve sin. They chose to. They had one rule! Dont eat from that tree. They were given dominion and sovereignity over the entire earth, yet one rule, dont eat from that tree. And they messed up. So sin entered into the world and corrupted mens hearts. And man grew to love sin.

That isnt Gods fault but a result of sin. The tree was poison and the Lord did warn them about it. He did what He could without violating man's free will.

 

[MA2444]

Red fan is running out of gas . The question is not if one is born this way or that way
but rather IS WHAT THEY are doing , PLEASING TO GOD or sin .

That is correct. It is a sinful behavior. That we were warned against.

 

[MA2444]

No one can prove through carnal wisdom the question of whether they were born this way or not

Well but,
there is one semi-scientific test that everyone can perform at home to get the correct answer...it goes like this...

What gender baby did your wife have? Well so do this. Next time she is changing the baby's diaper, peek over her shoulder and look at the child's anatomy. Is it femal anatomy or male anatomy? There is your scientific answer!

In G-Pa's lingo, you lift the tail the and look, son...Lol!

God knows that man is dumb and a slow learner, so He made it very obvious to us who the girls are, lol!

 

[MA2444]

Gender Dysphoria: The situation where a birth sex male feels that they are a female in a male body.
Or a birth sex female feels that they are a male in a female body. Usually realized in adolescence.
However, some children as young as 3 to 5 years old are acting on strong urges to opposite gender behavior.
Unfortunate, this has been OVER-STRESSED in recent years to epidemic proportions.
Gender identity is being pushed on anyone with a hormonal balance in either direction.
And has become popular in teen culture to pursue gender identity opposite their birth sex.

This is science saying that they do not agree with you. Uneasiness, disatisfaction, anxiety...(confusion!).

So let's call it for what it is. Since you dont like discussing demonic possession, let's call it a mental illness.

I mean, does that sound like someone who has their head on straight? I think I am a woman in a mans body? That is some horny homo who said that to them.

Thank you for helping to make my case and point!

 

[Wrangler]

And there you have it. Is Christ's atoning sacrifice both necessary and sufficient for salvation? Or is some human response also necessary? To whom are the saving effects of Christ's sacrifice attributed?

The metaphor I always go back to is being out in the ocean. Sin is the sinking ship that you are holding onto as it is all you have. Jesus comes along and throws a life preservor. We must accept this gift AND let go of the sin that is killing us. This is one action with 2 parts done simultaneously.

We cannot accept the gift, take hold with our all to Jesus and still be holding onto the USS Sinking Ship of Sin. This is faith, belief in action.

Our generation is so lazy, we want universalism, want to enjoy the million dollar check but consider it work on our part to cash the check, which we couch as disrespecting the sufficiency of Christ's atoning sacrifice. Let's keep it real people!