Unitarianism vs Trinitarianism

[RLT63]

That’s right. Which of the trinitarians I quoted ”aren’t trinitarians anymore”?

If we’re going to insist that Tertullian is a trinitarian then we must also insist that trinitarianism teaches that there was a time when the Son did not exist.

I’m not prepared to do that. Are you?

I think this is one of those things that people debate and no one knows the definitive answer. I think the Son has always existed with the Father but I can't prove it.

 

[RLT63]

A trinitarian who studies the history and concludes that the Trinity was not the way God is described in those early centuries does so because the writings of those early centuries which the trinitarian studied do not describe God as trinitarianism describes God.

Should then a trinitarian who has studied the history - and concluded from his or her reading of the writings of the earliest Christians that they weren’t describing God as the trinitarian describes God - cease being trinitarian?

I did. Church history was a major factor in my decision, but not the only factor.

Many have. Most haven’t.

For those who haven’t, why haven’t they?

Maybe they feel the evidence supports their beliefs.

 

[Matthias]

I think this is one of those things that people debate and no one knows the definitive answer. I think the Son has always existed with the Father but I can't prove it.

The early church didn’t. Using Tertullian (and others whose writings are opposed to trinitarianism) to bolster trinitarianism is unethical.

 

[RLT63]

The early church didn’t. Using Tertullian (and others whose writings are opposed to trinitarianism) to bolster trinitarianism is unethical.

But weren't his ideas built upon? Is it wrong to suggest he contributed to the doctrine?

 

[Matthias]

Maybe they feel the evidence supports their beliefs.

They believe the gap which doesn’t support their belief supports their belief?

At best, that’s illogical.

The best answer I’ve been given comes from Roman Catholicism.

 

[Wrangler]

Obviously you didn't read the article you posted

Indeed, I did read the article. Predictably, my interpretation, my take away is vastly different than yours. Math is not subjective and neither is epistemology, specifically axiomatic analysis.

As my logic professor pointed out, math works because logic works. And you reject logic on this topic.

 

[Matthias]

But weren't his ideas built upon? Is it wrong to suggest he contributed to the doctrine?

Didn’t you see the post where I documented that his ideas were rejected?

What exactly was his contribution to the doctrine?

 

[RLT63]

Indeed, I did read the article. Predictably, my interpretation, my take away is vastly different than yours. Math is not subjective and neither is epistemology, specifically axiomatic analysis.

As my logic professor pointed out, math works because logic works. And you reject logic on this topic.

I reject your logic maybe

 

[RLT63]

Didn’t you see the post where I documented that his ideas were rejected?

What exactly was his contribution to the doctrine?

Tertullian originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine. He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas).[7]

 

[Matthias]

Tertullian originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine.

Not trinitarian doctrine. So what development of early Church doctrine is your unidentified source referring to?

He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas).[7]

A term which he himself didn’t use as trinitarianism uses it. The trinitarian author’s point in post #465.

 

[RLT63]

Not trinitarian doctrine. So what development of early Church doctrine is your unidentified source referring to?



A term which he himself didn’t use as trinitarianism uses it. The trinitarian author’s point in post #465.

Tertullian was never recognized as a saint by the Eastern or Western Catholic churches. Several of his teachings on issues such as the clear subordination of the Son and Spirit to the Father,[8][9] as well as his condemnation of remarriage for widows and of fleeing from persecution, contradict the doctrines of these traditions, and his later rejection of orthodoxy for Montanism has led these communions to refrain from considering him a Church father, important ecclesiastical writer though he was

(Montanism (/ˈmɒntəˌnɪzəm/), known by its adherents as the New Prophecy, was an early Christian movement of the late 2nd century, later referred to by the name of its founder, Montanus.[1] Montanism held views about the basic tenets of Christian theology similar to those of the wider Christian Church, but it was labelled a heresy for its belief in new prophetic revelations.[2][3] The prophetic movement called for a reliance on the spontaneity of the Holy Spirit and a more conservative personal ethic.[2] Parallels have been drawn between Montanism and modern-day movements such as Pentecostalism (including Oneness Pentecostals) and the Charismatic movement.[4][5])

 

[Matthias]

Tertullian was never recognized as a saint by the Eastern or Western Catholic churches. Several of his teachings on issues such as the clear subordination of the Son and Spirit to the Father,[8][9] as well as his condemnation of remarriage for widows and of fleeing from persecution, contradict the doctrines of these traditions, and his later rejection of orthodoxy for Montanism has led these communions to refrain from considering him a Church father, important ecclesiastical writer though he was

What “orthodoxy” is your unidentified source referring to?

 

[RLT63]

What “orthodoxy” is your unidentified source referring to?

Orthodoxy (from Greek: ὀρθοδοξία, orthodoxía, 'righteous/correct opinion')[1][2] is adherence to correct or accepted creeds, especially in religion.[3]

Orthodoxy within Christianity refers to acceptance of the doctrines defined by various creeds and ecumenical councils in Antiquity, but different Churches accept different creeds and councils. Such differences of opinion have developed for numerous reasons, including language and cultural barriers.

In some English-speaking countries, Jews who adhere to all the traditions and commandments as legislated in the Talmud are often called Orthodox Jews.
Wikipedia

 

[Matthias]

At no time did Tertullian ever believe in orthodox trinitarianism.

 

[Matthias]

Orthodoxy (from Greek: ὀρθοδοξία, orthodoxía, 'righteous/correct opinion')[1][2] is adherence to correct or accepted creeds, especially in religion.[3]

Orthodoxy within Christianity refers to acceptance of the doctrines defined by various creeds and ecumenical councils in Antiquity, but different Churches accept different creeds and councils. Such differences of opinion have developed for numerous reasons, including language and cultural barriers.

In some English-speaking countries, Jews who adhere to all the traditions and commandments as legislated in the Talmud are often called Orthodox Jews.
Wikipedia

Tertullian lived long before those creeds and councils.

 

[RLT63]

Tertullian lived long before those creeds and councils.

I take it to mean he endorsed Montanism

 

[Matthias]

I take it to mean he endorsed Montanism

His non-trinitarian belief about God didn’t begin with, nor did it change, when he endorsed Montanism.

There is no legitimate way to make someone who wasn’t a trinitarian a trinitarian.

 

[RLT63]

His non-trinitarian belief about God didn’t begin with, nor did it change, when he endorsed Montanism.

There is no legitimate way to make someone who wasn’t a trinitarian a trinitarian.

You don't think he contributed to the doctrine by coining the term?

 

[Matthias]

You don't think he contributed to the doctrine by coining the term?

He didn’t coin the term. Someone beat him to it.

Tertullian wasn’t a trinitarian. Once we find this out, why use him as a defense of the Trinity?

 

[Matthias]

You don't think he contributed to the doctrine by coining the term?

The person (Theophilus) who used the corresponding Greek word before Tertullian used the Latin word also didn’t use it as trinitarianism does.

Trinity - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org