Unitarianism vs Trinitarianism

[Wrangler]

There's that intellectual objection. "It makes no sense, both can't be true at the same time."

Much love!

Logic is not the friend of mystical dualists.

 

[marks]

Logic is not the friend of mystical dualists.

Humanist logic is not the friend of revealed Scripture. I say "humanist" because it begins with the notion that unless something makes sense to the man, it cannot be true.

Defining God according to a man's understanding just doesn't strike me as a good idea, particularly when doing so requires one to not accept the plain sayings of plainly stated passages.

All these passages that you end up having to show these lengthy or frivolous seeming arguments about how it shouldn't be understood the way it so plainly seems.

And I don't know who those "mystic dualists" are, myself, I'm just a guy who believes what I read. I don't have a problem with God being so transcendant that He's not really understood by me.

Of course, it's man who is not fair. We don't understand how or what gravity is, but we don't question it. We just observe what we observe, and figure, maybe some day we'll understand.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Humanist logic is not the friend of revealed Scripture. I say "humanist" because it begins with the notion that unless something makes sense to the man, it cannot be true.

Strawman. It’s not subjective. It’s not merely that ‘unless something makes sense to the man, it cannot be true.’ It’s the principle upon which logic is based on - not humanist logic. Logic is the non-contradictory identification of truth.

Do you believe contradictions exist in reality?

 

[Wrangler]

Defining God according to a man's understanding just doesn't strike me as a good idea

That’s EXACTLY what trinitarians like you do; Defining God according to a man's understanding - in direct contradiction to God’s explicit word.

For us, there is only one God, the Father. Jesus is not the Father. Ergo, Jesus is not God.

 

[marks]

Strawman. It’s not subjective. It’s not merely that ‘unless something makes sense to the man, it cannot be true.’ It’s the principle upon which logic is based on - not humanist logic. Logic is the non-contradictory identification of truth.

Do you believe contradictions exist in reality?

I believe there are things that people have concluded are contradictions for a lack of understanding and knowledge. Do you thing man's reasoning is sufficient to understand all that is?

You are taking your reasoning and saying, No, by my reasoning this cannot be true. I am saying, regardless of yours or anyone's reasoning, if this is what the Bible presents, then man's lack of understanding does not prevent it from still being true.

I'm saying, it's this "intellectual objection" that forces one to view passages of Scripture in ways other then the plainness of what they say. To end up with lengthy arguments showing some winding path of reasoning about how it's not so.

Remove the objection, and accept the plain saying of plainly stated Scripture. Even if it is difficult or impossible to understand.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

“Unitarianism as a theological movement began much earlier in history; indeed it antedated Trinitarianism by many decades. Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian. The road from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”

(”Unitarianism,” Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Vol. 27, p. 294L)

Walk on by or verify?

“Walk on by” is the people’s choice.

Does trinitarianism deny history? No.

Do trinitarians deny history? Yes, by the score; but not all trinitarians.

Can a person be a trinitarian in light of history? Surely. Trinitarianism is firmly grounded in history, though the average trinitarian has scant knowledge of it. Why should they?

 

[Wrangler]

I believe there are things that people have concluded are contradictions for a lack of understanding and knowledge.

There is the infinite divide; the insistence that reality is subjective. Even at the conceptual level, you cannot grasp the notion that contradictions do not exist in reality. So, this affects every application of understanding, perverting it to various densities of intellectual quick sand.

 

[marks]

the insistence that reality is subjective.

As if that were what I'm saying . . . It's only a contradiction to someone because they don't understand.

Trying to make this as if I'm promoting some "subjective reality"?



I think we've reached an end.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

As if that were what I'm saying . . . It's only a contradiction to someone because they don't understand.

Trying to make this as if I'm promoting some "subjective reality"?

You are totally promoting a subjective reality. Otherwise you would not tie reality to ones understanding of it.

My question was not about anyones understanding. My question was conceptual, do contradictions exist in reality?

 

[marks]

You are totally promoting a subjective reality. Otherwise you would not tie reality to ones understanding of it.

My question was not about anyones understanding. My question was conceptual, do contradictions exist in reality?

I'm saying, that thing you call a contradiction, would not to you be a contradiction if you had greater understanding. I believe that understanding is beyond human wisdom. It is falsely called a contradiction, the reality is that people don't comprehend this truth about God.

Reality is what it is. As the smart man said, "facts don't care about feelings". But people don't understand things, and incorrectly label things.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

I'm saying, that thing you call a contradiction, would not to you be a contradiction if you had greater understanding.

1st, it is not about what I call it.

2nd, you are speculating it would not be a contradiction.

3rd, you are accepting the concept that contradictions exist in reality OR

4th, there is nothing but subjective reality, depending on one's understanding.

 

[Matthias]

The reality of scripture. There is no God besides the Messiah’s God. Everything else is idols.

 

[RLT63]

Origen is your man (“eternal generation”); not Tertullian.

I tried to send you a message and I am unable to for some reason

 

[Matthias]

I tried to send you a message and I am unable to for some reason

With very few exceptions, I don’t engage in conversations by pm. That comes from past experience where people have claimed things were said in pm’s that weren’t. For that reason, I confine my conversations on discussion forums to public view.

If there is something you want to say to me that can’t be said to me in public then it may not be something that should be said to me at all. If after reading this you still think a private conversation is urgent then I’ll try to change my settings to allow it.

Meanwhile, Tertullian is calling for my attention.

 

[RLT63]

With very few exceptions, I don’t engage in conversations by pm. That comes from past experience where people have claimed things were said in pm’s that weren’t. For that reason, I confine my conversations on discussion forums to public view.

If there is something you want to say to me that can’t be said to me in public then it may not be something that should be said to me at all. If after reading this you still think a private conversation is urgent then I’ll try to change my settings to allow it.

Meanwhile, Tertullian is calling for my attention.

No I just wanted to ask your opinion about something off topic since you are a futurist

 

[Matthias]

No I just wanted to ask your opinion about something off topic since you are a futurist

Perhaps another time, in another thread.

I’m thinking about putting off reading Origen for a while.

If not for conversations with trinitarians and having an interest in how the doctrine of the Trinity came about, I wouldn’t read him at all. He had issues. Serious, serious, serious, issues. (Notice the repetition. It’s not because I think Origen is three persons, one being. It’s because I’m using repetition to emphasize a point about one person, one being. Calvin, and other trinitarian scholars, make the excellent point that repetition of “holy, holy, holy” is repetition for emphasizing the character of God, not evidence that God is three persons, one being.)

 

[marks]

1st, it is not about what I call it.

I'm just going with your language . . .

2nd, you are speculating it would not be a contradiction.

I'm saying there are no true contradictions. Two things that actually negate each other. It's just a word we use to describe how we perceive.

3rd, you are accepting the concept that contradictions exist in reality OR

Do you mean like a rock that isn't a rock? No, I don't think that sort of thing is real.

4th, there is nothing but subjective reality, depending on one's understanding.

False dichotomy . . . People call things contradictions in a linguistic sense, "No, you can say that Maple syrup comes from trees, and at the same time it's synthetic, that's a contradiction." The fact is, it's not both, it's only one, and claiming something is a contradiction is how we show that one option isn't true. Because it's the way we understand it.

Then you find out . . . they've worked out a way to inject a certain GMO bacteria into a Poplar tree, and make it produce Maple syrup. So both are true, now that you know.

There is no contradiction what you understand what is true.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

So there was no bias.

I don’t know if you’ve seen it or not but some trinitarians try to persuade Muslims that the Trinity is taught in the Koran. I have a Muslim friend who discussed it with me. He said men who would do that have no regard for the truth, nor for their lives.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm saying there are no true contradictions.

Exactly! I know mystical dualists must reject logic and it's basic principle of mutual exclusivity; that contradictions do not exist in reality.

This principle is why alibi's in a crime scenario are vital to eliminating suspects.

 

[Wrangler]

Do you mean like a rock that isn't a rock? No, I don't think that sort of thing is real.

Akin to a god that isn't the true God.