Unity of the faith - at what cost?

[quietthinker]

Sin is no longer the issue-the penalty for all was paid for.

Not intending to distract but I would like to throw in these thoughts regarding the use of words and mental pictures they invoke.
The words 'paid' and 'penalty'; it appears they are connected in how we think about them. How are we to process these in our understanding?

Here are some options;

1 Paid ... a) do we owe something? b) if so, what do we owe? c) to who do we owe it d) and why?
2 Penalty ... is this to do with an arbitrary application or a consequence. Example; if I stop breathing and I die, is dying an arbitrary penalty or a natural consequence? ...another; if I jump off a ten storey building and go splat on the pavement, is it a penalty that is arbitrarily imposed or is it the consequence of the law of gravity?
....and yet another; if the traffic officer pulls me over for speeding and delivers a ticket, is the figure involved arbitrary or a natural consequence?

Personally, I think it important to have an understanding of these, clear. A muddy understanding will assume a muddy paradigm.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not intending to distract but I would like to throw in these thoughts regarding the use of words and mental pictures they invoke.
The words 'paid' and 'penalty'; it appears they are connected in how we think about them. How are we to process these in our understanding?

Here are some options;

1 Paid ... a) do we owe something? b) if so, what do we owe? c) to who do we owe it d) and why?
2 Penalty ... is this to do with an arbitrary application or a consequence. Example; if I stop breathing and I die, is dying an arbitrary penalty or a natural consequence? ...another; if I jump off a ten storey building and go splat on the pavement, is it a penalty that is arbitrarily imposed or is it the consequence of the law of gravity?
....and yet another; if the traffic officer pulls me over for speeding and delivers a ticket, is the figure involved arbitrary or a natural consequence?

Personally, I think it important to have an understanding of these, clear. A muddy understanding will assume a muddy paradigm.

Well I use the standard normal usual definition for a penalty:


: the suffering in person, rights, or property that is annexed by law or judicial decision to the commission of a crime or public offense

Jesus paid the penalty or judicial consequence for our sin.

your first two examples are merely consequences of an action. Not a penalty per se.
your last is an example of a penalty. but it is not arbitrary or a natural consequence, but the punishment affixed by the governing authority.

As for paid- yes we owe God for our sin debt before Him. The debt is eternal separation from Him. We owe it to god . Why? be cause He is God and creator of all things and gets to make the rules.

 

[quietthinker]

As for paid- yes we owe God for our sin debt before Him. The debt is eternal separation from Him. We owe it to god . Why? be cause He is God and creator of all things and gets to make the rules.

does that make him a dictator....'my way or the highway' ?

 

[quietthinker]

Well I use the standard normal usual definition for a penalty:

'normal' is the consensus of the majority.....and the majority are sick.

 

[Keturah]

No unity, for in a nut shell this is spelled out in this word.....we must believe in....

Ephesians 4:5-6 KJV
 one Lord,  one faith,  one baptism,  one God and Father of all, who is ABOVE all, and through all, and in you all.

There is one God, one faith, one baptism.... In these I see the Father, the Son & the Spirit.

There are MANY that seek to be their own gods, worship & seek after false gods, preach, teach, & embrace another gospel other than the gospel of Jesus & HIS DOCTRINES !

This equals no unity of churches, religious affiliations, groups, denominations, ect ; the way & the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THROUGH JESUS, HIS SALVATION & THE WORD OF GOD, rightly divided, in context !

It must be a desire for unity of true believers of the faith, in this desire; then I say yes there can be unity !

 

[quietthinker]

It must be a desire for unity of true believers of the faith, in this desire; then I say yes there can be unity !

then agree with me!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

does that make him a dictator....'my way or the highway

Yes a dictator. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life, No man comes to the Father except through Him.

He is loving, just, holy, merciful and creator of all things.

He owns the universe and gets to make the rules.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

'normal' is the consensus of the majority.....and the majority are sick.

Well God created language for us to communicate. So I use the accepted meanings of words in order to communicate with others. If you wish to redefine words, do not expect to be understood well.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes a dictator. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life, No man comes to the Father except through Him.

He is loving, just, holy, merciful and creator of all things.

He owns the universe and gets to make the rules.

So the angels and the whole universe would serve him bowing and scraping out of fear?
Sound like a pagan deity!

 

[St. SteVen]

It must be a desire for unity of true believers of the faith, in this desire; then I say yes there can be unity !

Ironically your declaration is divisive. What is a TRUE believer?
The UNITY you are promoting is simple tribalism.
NOTHING special about that. Even the pagans have that,
And probably to a HIGHER degree than your tribe.

No unity without compromise.

 

[amadeus]

No unity without compromise.

Jesus never compromised Truth. So must we also not compromise Truth, God's Truth that is...

Joh 10:30

I and my Father are one.

Are we one with God? Would we or should we change what we are with Him in order to please men or to be one with men or with the essential stated doctrines of any church group? What men have defined as ATs [Absolute Truths] for themselves or their groups or denominations are NOT things to stand by if and when they make us other than One with God.

Jesus spoke of this [prayed] also here:

Joh 17:22

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

 

[David in NJ]

If we could find the correct doctrines to embrace and which ones to reject according to man's logic alone, surely it would have already been done. Man's logic and/or common sense are NOT the Way to God. Are there any acceptable short cuts that will assure us we are heading the right direction or even are already in the right place now?

I believe they are written in the scriptures, but we must be careful about accepting any man's say on what is or is not true or essential to our walk.
The answer, I believe, is to been found by following the lead of the Holy Spirit at all times, but remember that I also am a man who also may be fallible. Following the Holy Spirit I am infallible. Quenching the Holy Spirit I am very fallible indeed. Does anyone always follow the lead of the Holy Spirit? If they do how indeed may we recognize them?

You asked: "Are there any acceptable short cuts that will assure us we are heading the right direction or even are already in the right place now?"

YES there is and you pointed to it = the Holy Spirit

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus never compromised Truth. So must we also not compromise Truth, God's Truth that is...

The perennial problem... no consensus on what "God's Truth" is.
Many would say, "It's in the Bible." (duh) Okay...
There's no consensus on what the Bible says. (means to say)

Are we one with God? Would we or should we change what we are with Him in order to please men or to be one with men or with the essential stated doctrines of any church group? What men have defined as ATs [Absolute Truths] for themselves or their groups or denominations are NOT things to stand by if and when they make us other than One with God.

Right.
Now... what do you do about differences with OTHER believers?

 

[St. SteVen]

Ironically your declaration is divisive. What is a TRUE believer?
The UNITY you are promoting is simple tribalism.
NOTHING special about that. Even the pagans have that,
And probably to a HIGHER degree than your tribe.

No unity without compromise.

New topic.

Unity in exclusivity is mere tribalism - Nothing special there

Much discussion in another area of the forum about UNITY and what it means, and doesn't mean. Many seek doctrinal unity. But we discovered that they haven't accounted for the necessary compromise to make that happen. What they really want is for everyone to JOIN their doctrinal tribe so...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So the angels and the whole universe would serve him bowing and scraping out of fear?
Sound like a pagan deity!

No people who serve god do so out of love! Because of His great love for us. We serve for love. It is pagan deities that coerce ment oserve in fear.

But all people have a choice. Bow yo0ur knee now to the Creator and King of the universe and be saved- or be forced to bow at the Great White Throne Judgment prior to be cast into the lake of fire.

Bowe in love or bow in terror is the choice all men have to make.

 

[amadeus]

The perennial problem... no consensus on what "God's Truth" is.
Many would say, "It's in the Bible." (duh) Okay...
There's no consensus on what the Bible says. (means to say)

Right.
Now... what do you do about differences with OTHER believers?

Unless I am invited or really receive direction from the Holy Spirit, I try to leave differences in other believers alone. All of us have ATs but as I see it, the ATs themselves can be a danger to us hindering God's work in us. God wants us to grow as Jesus grew, but sometimes those ATs need to be trimmed or adjusted or even eliminated.

Joh 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

I continue in my seeking of His face and in the hearing of His voice with understanding. When should this end? When I have reached the end of my course:

Ps 27:8

When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

Joh 10:4

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

2ti 4:6	For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2ti 4:7	I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

 

[amadeus]

No people who serve god do so out of love! Because of His great love for us. We serve for love. It is pagan deities that coerce ment oserve in fear.

But all people have a choice. Bow yo0ur knee now to the Creator and King of the universe and be saved- or be forced to bow at the Great White Throne Judgment prior to be cast into the lake of fire.

Bowe in love or bow in terror is the choice all men have to make.

Is that then a choice between the right hand and the left hand of God? Is satan equal to the left hand?

 

[quietthinker]

No people who serve god do so out of love! Because of His great love for us. We serve for love. It is pagan deities that coerce ment oserve in fear.

But all people have a choice. Bow yo0ur knee now to the Creator and King of the universe and be saved- or be forced to bow at the Great White Throne Judgment prior to be cast into the lake of fire.

Bowe in love or bow in terror is the choice all men have to make.

Dictators are not served because of love; they are served because of fear.
Do you really see Jesus as a dictator?......or, are you a dictator for your wife and children?....maybe you are?

 

[quietthinker]

No people who serve god do so out of love! Because of His great love for us. We serve for love. It is pagan deities that coerce ment oserve in fear.

But all people have a choice. Bow yo0ur knee now to the Creator and King of the universe and be saved- or be forced to bow at the Great White Throne Judgment prior to be cast into the lake of fire.

Bowe in love or bow in terror is the choice all men have to make.

Coercing love has never been nor shall it ever be love.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dictators are not served because of love; they are served because of fear.
Do you really see Jesus as a dictator?......or, are you a dictator for your wife and children?....maybe you are?

No I am not and they would easily testify of that fact.

But the absolute monarch of the universe is served by people out
of love. anyone who serves out of fear does not know HIm.

If you read how He will rule during the millennial kingdom you know- He will rule with a rod of Iron.

Coercing love has never been nor shall it ever be love.

You only say that because you neither know HIm nor HIs Word! We were lost and condemned to the lake of fire for eternity for our own sinfulness. But:

John 3:16-18

King James Version

​

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

that dear quiet thinker is real love in action!