Unity of the faith - at what cost?

[quietthinker]

If you read how He will rule during the millennial kingdom you know- He will rule with a rod of Iron.

Are you so sure your interpretation of these things is right or is there room for questions?

You only say that because you neither know HIm nor HIs Word!

You sound very sure of that. Do you feel confident to advise God on that one?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dictators are not served because of love; they are served because of fear.
Do you really see Jesus as a dictator?......or, are you a dictator for your wife and children?....maybe you are?

No I am not and they would easily testify of that fact.

But the absolute monarch of the universe is served by people out
of love. anyone who serves out of fear does not know HIm.

If you read how He will rule during the millennial kingdom you know- He will rule with a rod of Iron.

Coercing love has never been nor shall it ever be love.

You only say that because you neither know HIm nor HIs Word! We were lost and condemned to the lake of fire for eternity for our own sinfulness. But:

John 3:16-18​

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King James Version​

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16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

that dear quiet thinker is real love in action!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are you so sure your interpretation of these things is right or is there room for questions?

You sound very sure of that. Do you feel confident to advise God on that one?

It is not an interpretation but a simple reciting of what God declared! No need for interpretation.

I did not advise God- He advises us through His Word and we just report what He inspired in HIs Word.

 

[Behold]

The new man is incapable of sin.

All that is left is the new man.

The born again Christian is the "new creation in Christ'.

That's it. That is what God sees.
We have to see it the same way or we are not in the renewed mind.

Paul told you that the old man is crucified with Christ.

"crucified" = dead.

This is why He told you to see it that way, and never any other way.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All that is left is the new man.

The born again Christian is the "new creation in Christ'.

That's it. That is what God sees.
We have to see it the same way or we are not in the renewed mind.

Paul told you that the old man is crucified with Christ.

"crucified" = dead.

This is why He told you to see it that way, and never any other way.

Well I know I live in the mind of Christ and my miond is being renewed day by day.

but I also know that Paul taight born again believers to die daily, to deny the old man, and to not follow the old ways. Why? Because even though god has declared the old man dead, its lusts and urges still live in the heart and must be cast down daily.

 

[Behold]

Well I know I live in the mind of Christ and my miond is being renewed day by day.

when you live in the mind of Christ you wont be studying 1 John 1:9 trying to understand why you are : "sin, confess, repeat" for 40+ yrs.

Believe it.

 

[Reddsta]

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries.

And it was the cause of much destruction; it never works because that was never the “call” of the Lord Yahshua. His will is for His people to grow into a “spiritual unity” which actually does and is happening…most forget that He has been on the throne of God since His resurrection and ascension, those of the Holy Spirit "are" coming into unity and maturity as Paul wrote in Eph. 4.

Are we there yet? (not by a long shot)

Nope, because that was never the Lord’s objective and we will never get to “doctrinal unity.” I pastored in the United Pentecostal Church International and in the Southern Baptist Convention, doctrinally they cannot agree on many points.

For them to come to “doctrinal unity” they would have to fundamentally change their doctrine, their culture, their identity, that won’t happen because these are the things that they feel make them more pleasing to God.

Where is the problem?

The problem is that “doctrinal unity” is not the primary objective of God; I might suggest that very “thought or idea” as the problem.

Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

This is an excellent point! Doctrine has become a tool of the enemy, division in the name of Christ. Faith towards God creates unity because it is the Holy Spirit of truth who oversees the building up of the Body of Christ, personally.

- Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences?

Seems as though time has shown to be an impossibility in the big picture, one can hope.

- Does the Body of Christ have room for differing views on doctrine?

Depends on the doctrine and whether or not men are willing to discuss options to their already entrenched ideals. On top of that God has set a divine standard it is a “light” that exposes men’s desire to live in darkness, I do not see how, so no.

- What would the church look like if we didn't label differing views as BAD or FALSE doctrines?

Like the end goal is merely a “destination” which is to “get to heaven,” like one big happy religion, which is where the harlot is taking it, on her terms for a time.

- Is a differing view unbiblical simply because it doesn't agree with our own biblical position?

No sir, not necessarily among the brethren, but the seed of the serpent was cursed with a spirit of enmity, so conflict and contention are unavoidable.

Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

Hum, nice question at face value one would think not. This is where the idea you mentioned earlier comes into view, with a unity of faith where man actually desires to find the depths of God, together, they should be able to resolve that issue spiritually if not doctrinally, Huh?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

This is an excellent point! Doctrine has become a tool of the enemy, division in the name of Christ. Faith towards God creates unity because it is the Holy Spirit of truth who oversees the building up of the Body of Christ, personally.

Ah, okay.
I thought your first post to me was a rebuttal. Perhaps not. Good post BTW.

Can you clarify a bit? You seem to be on both sides of the fence here.
You seems to agree that unity of the faith is NOT doctrinal unity.
But then label doctrinal diversity as "a tool of the enemy, division in the name of Christ." ???

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

Hum, nice question at face value one would think not. This is where the idea you mentioned earlier comes into view, with a unity of faith where man actually desires to find the depths of God, together, they should be able to resolve that issue spiritually if not doctrinally, Huh?

We seem to have this idea that there is only one "true" set of beliefs, and that everyone should fall in line under that.
But who's set of beliefs will we fall under? And how much compromise would be required for doctrinal unity?
I think it as impossible as it is a really BAD idea. Like the end times world church you alluded to earlier.
That's what doctrinal unity would look like. A whore riding the Beast.

 

[quietthinker]

St. SteVen said:
Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

We seem to have this idea that there is only one "true" set of beliefs, and that everyone should fall in line under that.
But who's set of beliefs will we fall under? And how much compromise would be required for doctrinal unity?
I think it as impossible as it is a really BAD idea. Like the end times world church you alluded to earlier.
That's what doctrinal unity would look like. A whore riding the Beast.

and what do whores riding beasts do? they sell their services for political gain!....and so we have the unholy trinity; the dragon, the beast and the whore ....which is also referenced as the false prophet

 

[Reddsta]

I thought your first post to me was a rebuttal. Perhaps not. Good post BTW.

Thank you St. SteVen

Can you clarify a bit? You seem to be on both sides of the fence here.
You seems to agree that unity of the faith is NOT doctrinal unity.
But then label doctrinal diversity as "a tool of the enemy, division in the name of Christ." ???

Interesting observation, let me see.

I believe that what I am trying to express here is, I understand unity of faith as a "spiritual unity," which has it's basis in the Holy Spirit, the mind of God, eternity, not the minds of men. The issue of "doctrine" normally becomes tangled up in "false belief" as I have encountered it over the years, in myself at times and in the minds of other men, this would be what I consider, separate from the Holy Spirit breathed understanding. It happens.

I have however, experienced doctrinal unity or at least the willingness to pursue doctrinal unity to agreement, or to a change of "heart" towards a doctrinal position as well, in myself and few others, though that is rare.

Predominantly among the "church" today I see the harlot, the one who pretends to be the bride of Christ, a false christ, using the concept of "doctrine" to create division in the house of God via deception with all sides claiming the purity of Truth absent a "desire" to "love one another as I have loved you." There is much more to said about this of course.

As I see it St. SteVen, Paul in Ephesian 4 gives us precisely the "governmental order" if I may, for life in the temple of God on earth. As I said earlier, when religious humanity does not embrace that spiritual reality, you will find each man doing what is right in his own eyes. This will produce the purely carnal nature of debauched humanity, while maintaining that it is Christ. The important thing about this, is, it is useful in identifying those actually in Christ from the multitudes of imposters.

This furthers division and in my mind has produced denominational religion, or simply put, "a religious version of the world." This is being brought to its end however.

Did I answer you St. SteVen?

 

[Reddsta]

We seem to have this idea that there is only one "true" set of beliefs, and that everyone should fall in line under that.

Fascinating St. SteVen, though we are not the first to approach this challenge, nor the last.

I both despise the idea that what you said is true, and in a quick search within myself I find the reality that yes, at times I have been that man.

For me, it comes down to obedience the the Holy Spirit, the voice of God, that eternal person that has so graciously indwelt my spirit by His own resurrection power, known as the Lord Yahshua Christ. He is loving me ridiculously, my response to to love my brothers and sister in the same way, I am learning St. SteVen. This is how I am resolving this issue within my spirit and soul, friend.

 

[Reddsta]

But who's set of beliefs will we fall under? And how much compromise would be required for doctrinal unity?
I think it as impossible as it is a really BAD idea. Like the end times world church you alluded to earlier.
That's what doctrinal unity would look like. A whore riding the Beast.

Yep, doctrine based in Truth is important, no doubt, everything else is contention and division.

However allowing the "Head of the Body" to direct the affairs in ones spirit and subsequently ones soul, as He patiently builds up or raises up His Body, is really the only process or path to the purest form of the Truth that is Christ Yahshua, thereby reconciling us to God the Father.

 

[amigo de christo]

It is not an interpretation but a simple reciting of what God declared! No need for interpretation.

I did not advise God- He advises us through His Word and we just report what He inspired in HIs Word.

Point to CHRIST JESUS till the last breath . Many are now becoming agents that do all to try and SHUT DOWN
evangelizing the gospel of truth . That is what this is all about . TO SHUT up our voices FOREVER .
They want the preaching of CHRIST out of the way . Because they want to UNIFY ALL RELIGOINS AS ONE .
And the gospel IS IN THEIR WAY . cause it says BELEIVE YE IN HIM , YE MUST BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS .
That is what this is all about . POINT TO JESUS TILL the last breath .

 

[amigo de christo]

Well I know I live in the mind of Christ and my miond is being renewed day by day.

but I also know that Paul taight born again believers to die daily, to deny the old man, and to not follow the old ways. Why? Because even though god has declared the old man dead, its lusts and urges still live in the heart and must be cast down daily.

exactly . them reminders , them warnings ARE FOR OUR GOOD . the flesh will always have evil in it
We must deny it , we must heed the warnings and all reminders which is for the GOOD of the church .

 

[St. SteVen]

and what do whores riding beasts do? they sell their services for political gain!....and so we have the unholy trinity; the dragon, the beast and the whore ....which is also referenced as the false prophet

Yup... that's what doctrinal unity looks like, unfortunately.

 

[St. SteVen]

Did I answer you St. SteVen?

Yes. Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response. Much appreciated.

 

[St. SteVen]

He is loving me ridiculously,

What a great comment, thanks. - LOL

 

[Gottservant]

I think there is a place for doctrine, but not so much that it crowds out commitment (which is a doctrinal statement, but one that leaves room for how to commit!)

 

[amigo de christo]

Well I know I live in the mind of Christ and my miond is being renewed day by day.

but I also know that Paul taight born again believers to die daily, to deny the old man, and to not follow the old ways. Why? Because even though god has declared the old man dead, its lusts and urges still live in the heart and must be cast down daily.