True for some that refused to co-operate in this age, they missed out on being part of the body that will rule and reign with Christ, but in the end all are reconciled to God just as He has planned.
You might be the disappointed one.
Universal Reconciliation
- Thread starter jiggyfly
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You might be the disappointed one.
Hey jiggy!
All it proves is that every human being that ever lived will acknowledge one day that Jesus Christ is Lord over all things.
That does not amount to being saved. [Acknowledging Christ after the fact or when he appears is not based on faith]
John 3:18
...but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Shalom!!!
All it proves is that every human being that ever lived will acknowledge one day that Jesus Christ is Lord over all things.
That does not amount to being saved. [Acknowledging Christ after the fact or when he appears is not based on faith]
John 3:18
...but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Shalom!!!
Hey jiggy!
All it proves is that every human being that ever lived will acknowledge one day that Jesus Christ is Lord over all things.
That does not amount to being saved. [Acknowledging Christ after the fact or when he appears is not based on faith]
John 3:18
...but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Shalom!!!
Why leave off the "and give praise to God"?
Yes as a matter of fact there are several.
Are there any contrary?
Do you believe that God won't accomplish His will?
OK ..... jiggyfly ... I "think" I understand your question ... so here is my slant...
1. Yes , i think all christian are reconciled to God thru Jesus (obviously)
2. I also think all Israel will be saved (as per Romans) because of the covenant God has with them ..... but in the end he saves them through Jesus ... even though they reject him in the meantime.
(Another way to say it is God uses the "mechanics" of salvation thru Jesus to fulfill his original covenants with Israel.)
3. The part about all mankind eventually confessing and praising Him .... well ..... I have always seen that as the (fallen) (unsaved) acknowledging their error ..... "after the fact" .... and .... "after it is too late" for salvation.
Maybe it does mean they do live on for eternity .... but do not reign with Christ .... if that means no hell for them I wouldn't object .... but certainly they will be separated from God .... which does not sound all that pleasant either.
I have also pondered that verse where it says .... Jesus has come to save mankind .... especially those who believe.
Notice the preamble that we trust and accept it
(from timothy 4:9-10)
[sup]9 [/sup]This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance [sup]10 [/sup](and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
1. Yes , i think all christian are reconciled to God thru Jesus (obviously)
2. I also think all Israel will be saved (as per Romans) because of the covenant God has with them ..... but in the end he saves them through Jesus ... even though they reject him in the meantime.
(Another way to say it is God uses the "mechanics" of salvation thru Jesus to fulfill his original covenants with Israel.)
3. The part about all mankind eventually confessing and praising Him .... well ..... I have always seen that as the (fallen) (unsaved) acknowledging their error ..... "after the fact" .... and .... "after it is too late" for salvation.
Maybe it does mean they do live on for eternity .... but do not reign with Christ .... if that means no hell for them I wouldn't object .... but certainly they will be separated from God .... which does not sound all that pleasant either.
I have also pondered that verse where it says .... Jesus has come to save mankind .... especially those who believe.
Notice the preamble that we trust and accept it
(from timothy 4:9-10)
[sup]9 [/sup]This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance [sup]10 [/sup](and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
Of course not, but shouldn't the whole verse be considered? I started this thread at the request of other members and had hoped it would be a discussion in which we would take a serious look into the scriptures listed and form a mindset on the truth revealed. I know from my own experiences it is hard to keep the bias of religious doctrines from infecting the discussion but was hoping for more restraint.
Thanks for your input and the scriptures Arnie.
Jiggyfly .... earlier I pointed out Timothy 4:9-10 (Savior of all men , especially of those who believe)
I don't have a firm opinion on this , but admit it does sound like Jesus could (or maybe does) save all men .... even the unbelievers .... but it would seem at odds with every other basic christian doctrine.
.... and there is also something similar in 1 John 2:1 ...............
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. [sup]2 [/sup]He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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I have quoted your OP and now I will share some of my thoughts on this subject. ....... and I confess to being "uncertain" about this whole subject. (I take no firm position..... if anything I am a bit confused)
One sentence in your OP is profound and we should take it as literal ..... made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
If we use that as a blanket statement we could surmise that "punishment" is no longer an issue for God ( including punishment for the unbeliever)
I have observed many "old time fundamental evangelical Christians" who changed their minds in later years and came to the conclusion that all men will be forgiven thru Christ . ..... this always bothered me , yet I knew they had not gone soft , and I knew they never ceased to proclaim Jesus as savior ..... yet they made it sound like Jesus would be savior to even the unbelievers and other religions .... (I still have a hard time accepting that))
If indeed it is true ..... then it would mean that we evangelical Christians should simply be spreading the good news of salvation through Jesus ..... and not be stipulating that everybody must first .... "believe it " .... for salvation to be put into effect.
If indeed all men are saved thru Jesus .... then there certainly must be "something special" about being a believer ... and it must be rewarding somehow .... otherwise what would be the advantage of being "a believer" in the first place.
My best guess (if UR is true) is that "the believer" will be in the city with God and Jesus (New Jerusalem) ..... and the rest of mankind are outside the city ......
[sup]rev 22: 14 [/sup]“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. [sup] [/sup]15. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
(We must admit those verses take place in the new heaven and new earth)
Anyway , those are a few of my thoughts on this (difficult) subject. Sorry for the long and rambling post.
My greatest difficulty is that as a firm proponent of ... "the accuracy of the word of God" .... I must be honest and also apply the verses that support Universal Reconciliation .... even if I don't want to at the time.
...............
ps: jiggyfly
If you know of more verses that tend to support UR .... I would find them interesting. thanks.
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I don't have a firm opinion on this , but admit it does sound like Jesus could (or maybe does) save all men .... even the unbelievers .... but it would seem at odds with every other basic christian doctrine.
.... and there is also something similar in 1 John 2:1 ...............
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. [sup]2 [/sup]He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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the following was intended to be in a separate post but the new forum software combines the two
====================================================================================
.
..
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.
I have quoted your OP and now I will share some of my thoughts on this subject. ....... and I confess to being "uncertain" about this whole subject. (I take no firm position..... if anything I am a bit confused)
One sentence in your OP is profound and we should take it as literal ..... made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
If we use that as a blanket statement we could surmise that "punishment" is no longer an issue for God ( including punishment for the unbeliever)
I have observed many "old time fundamental evangelical Christians" who changed their minds in later years and came to the conclusion that all men will be forgiven thru Christ . ..... this always bothered me , yet I knew they had not gone soft , and I knew they never ceased to proclaim Jesus as savior ..... yet they made it sound like Jesus would be savior to even the unbelievers and other religions .... (I still have a hard time accepting that))
If indeed it is true ..... then it would mean that we evangelical Christians should simply be spreading the good news of salvation through Jesus ..... and not be stipulating that everybody must first .... "believe it " .... for salvation to be put into effect.
If indeed all men are saved thru Jesus .... then there certainly must be "something special" about being a believer ... and it must be rewarding somehow .... otherwise what would be the advantage of being "a believer" in the first place.
My best guess (if UR is true) is that "the believer" will be in the city with God and Jesus (New Jerusalem) ..... and the rest of mankind are outside the city ......
[sup]rev 22: 14 [/sup]“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. [sup] [/sup]15. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
(We must admit those verses take place in the new heaven and new earth)
Anyway , those are a few of my thoughts on this (difficult) subject. Sorry for the long and rambling post.
My greatest difficulty is that as a firm proponent of ... "the accuracy of the word of God" .... I must be honest and also apply the verses that support Universal Reconciliation .... even if I don't want to at the time.
...............
ps: jiggyfly
If you know of more verses that tend to support UR .... I would find them interesting. thanks.
.
.
.
Hi jiggy!
I agree with the point that Jesus died on the cross for all mankind but do not agree that all mankind is saved automatically. There is a covenant relationship that has to happen between man and God. Romans 10:8-13. John 3:16. This relationship enables the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believe.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
[sup]21 [/sup]Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, [sup]22 [/sup]who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:
[sup]5 [/sup]Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. [sup]6 [/sup]So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. [sup]7 [/sup]For we walk by faith, not by sight.
Ephesians 1:14.
[sup]13 [/sup]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [sup]14 [/sup]who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
Shalom!!! ^_^
I agree with the point that Jesus died on the cross for all mankind but do not agree that all mankind is saved automatically. There is a covenant relationship that has to happen between man and God. Romans 10:8-13. John 3:16. This relationship enables the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believe.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
[sup]21 [/sup]Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, [sup]22 [/sup]who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:
[sup]5 [/sup]Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. [sup]6 [/sup]So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. [sup]7 [/sup]For we walk by faith, not by sight.
Ephesians 1:14.
[sup]13 [/sup]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [sup]14 [/sup]who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
Shalom!!! ^_^
Dear Jiggyfly,
I have read the posts on this thread and see you are not having much success. Certainly, Christ is the Savior of the world. He will not fail to save even one person. The church is saved now during this age. But salvation is not limited to the church. The church is only the FIRST fruits of the harvest - not the full harvest. If it were, then scripture would say that the church is the complete harvest of God. But it doesn't. They are only the first fruits - the early and best portion of the harvest season. The first fruits are blessed by Christ because He chose them first. But all mankind will be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Part of the problem that I see happening on this thread is that most do not understand what salvation is. Christ came to save us from TWO things. The FIRST being the penalty of sin. That penalty is death (not hell). Christ paid that penalty on the cross for ALL mankind. Now, because of that work of Christ, all mankind will be resurrected from death. If Christ's work on the cross did not apply to all mankind, then those it doesn't apply to will remain in the grave (hell). But Christ came to save the world and His sacrifice applies to all mankind. But Christ came to do MORE than just save us from DEATH. He came to do a SECOND thing for us as well. And that is to STOP us from sinning in the future. The penalty is paid but in order for our relationship with God to be restored, we MUST stop sinning. That work of stopping us from sinning is a long process and will take until the final age is complete. His plan of changing us all into the "image of God" starts with the church. He chose those persons who will be in His church from the "foundation of the world". He chooses them and then causes them to repent, receive the Holy Spirit, be judged, spiritually mature and to remain faithful unto death. Only those in this age that completes this process will be in His church. They will have died to their "self" (Old man, carnal nature). In other words, they will be destroyed in this life and a new man in Christ will grow to maturity in them. Upon their resurrection from the grave, they will receive the FULL measure of God's Spirit and be "like Him". Christ will use His church (kings and priests) to draw and change the rest of mankind into His image. John 10:10 summaries what I have just said in one verse:
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
As I said, Christ gave us all life from death by His work at the cross. When we are drawn to Him, He will do all that is necessary to change us from a carnal sinning creature into a New Man in Christ. That is what we see happening in the true church today. But they are only the FIRST fruits of the harvest. The full harvest of mankind will happen at the end of the final age. It is ALL the work of Christ so that no man can boast. If you are saved first, it is the work of Christ. If you are saved last, it is the work of Christ. We are His workmanship. We are the work of His hands. We are the clay and He is the potter.
The whole of scripture is about making mankind into God's image. We are children of GOD and it is a long and painful process to be born. It is ALL His work. We are merely the clay and have NO SAY SO in the matter. HE will complete all that He said He will do but He has an order in which it will be accomplished.
[font=Trebuchet MS"] 1Cor 15:20-28 B ut now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.[/font]
All that died in Adam (all mankind) is the same all that will be made alive in Christ. Now here comes the order: Christ is first, then those who are His at His coming (the church), the comes those at the "consummation" or the "end". The end is the end of the harvest season. All this is shown to us by the Jewish feasts of First Fruits and Tabernacles. Once the Kingdom is complete (all mankind), Christ will deliver up the kingdom to the Father and the purpose of God will be fulfilled. God will be "all in all" and God will have many new children. He will not rest until all is complete. His love will not fail even one person. WE ARE ALL HIS WORK. We do not come to Christ from our supposed "free will". We are all born with a carnal mind that hates God. Until Christ removes that carnal mind, we will all go on hating God. But that change from a carnal mind into the mind of Christ is a long process that involves JUDGMENT for everyone. The church is judged now and the rest will be judged in the final age. God truly loves all His creation and will personally see to it that no one is lost. It is the height of self righteousness to believe that you are the one who acted and came to Christ by your "free will". Without the work of Christ, you would NEVER come to Him. The church has no right to boast or even to judge those who have not been selected by Christ at this time. He will take care of them at the time He has already selected. If you have been called and chosen to be in His church, then you should be thankful that He choose you and is changing you so that at the resurrection, you will be "born again" into God's image. If you continue on believing in the doctrines of the harlot church, you will be cast into the lake of fire with the unbelievers. But through that fire (judgment), you too will be changed into God's image (saved).
Joe
Again...without that covenant relationship with God jiggy...mankind remains as he always has been. He must come to the Father through his son our Lord Jesus Christ first...
The GoodNews of the Gospel is not that all men are now automatically saved but that salvation is now available for all mankind through the blood of Christ, to those who believe on him and his saving grace, through faith....
Ephesians 2
[sup]8 [/sup]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9 [/sup]not of works, lest anyone should boast. [sup]10 [/sup]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
[sup]11 [/sup]Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— [sup]12 [/sup]that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [sup]13 [/sup]But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Shalom!!!
The GoodNews of the Gospel is not that all men are now automatically saved but that salvation is now available for all mankind through the blood of Christ, to those who believe on him and his saving grace, through faith....
Ephesians 2
[sup]8 [/sup]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9 [/sup]not of works, lest anyone should boast. [sup]10 [/sup]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
[sup]11 [/sup]Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— [sup]12 [/sup]that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [sup]13 [/sup]But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Shalom!!!
Absolutely, but I haven't found any scripture that states it must happen before the fleshly body dies have you?
Well I know it seems that way and things are not going the way I wanted them to, but I like to take one or two scriptures at a time and discuss them thoroughly before moving forward. IMO most people will not read lengthy posts anyway. But ultimately no matter how well something is laid out revelation must come from God.
You can be reconciled to God - all men are - without having received that reconciliation.
You must receive Jesus in order to be born again. Without being born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God. Being forgiven your sins - while tremendous - isn't enough.
There is the verse . . . it is appointed to men to die once, and then judgment. Perhaps you interpret that differently.
There is the rich man and Lazarus. He didn't seem to be getting a second chance. There are those who will be sent from judgment from the sheep and goats, into eternal punishment. Paul said "now is the day of salvation".
That there will be a resurrection of the dead - not that they become alive, they are called the dead - to be sent to the lake of fire, it sure seems to me that not all will be saved. So . . . yes, there is universal reconciliation, but not all receive that reconciliation, and will go away condemned. Now, if I were dead, faced with the realities of death, and offered the chance to be with God . . . who wouldn't take it? But what about all of these?
You must receive Jesus in order to be born again. Without being born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God. Being forgiven your sins - while tremendous - isn't enough.
There is the verse . . . it is appointed to men to die once, and then judgment. Perhaps you interpret that differently.
There is the rich man and Lazarus. He didn't seem to be getting a second chance. There are those who will be sent from judgment from the sheep and goats, into eternal punishment. Paul said "now is the day of salvation".
That there will be a resurrection of the dead - not that they become alive, they are called the dead - to be sent to the lake of fire, it sure seems to me that not all will be saved. So . . . yes, there is universal reconciliation, but not all receive that reconciliation, and will go away condemned. Now, if I were dead, faced with the realities of death, and offered the chance to be with God . . . who wouldn't take it? But what about all of these?
Hi jiggyfly,
It seems that translation is from a minority text.... possibly Westcott and Hort.... who altered quite a few things to suit themselves.
The TR translations end with 'confess to God'. The original statement doesn't use the word 'confess', which was nearly always associated with turning back to God and ceasing from idolatry (sin), in the OT.
(KJV) Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return,
2 Corinthians 5:19 '... God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...'
I do not read this as everyone has had their sins forgiven, but rather, that the means for everyone's sins to be forgiven had been arranged between the Father and the Son though the covenant they made with each other, which was brought to the Jewish people primarily (chronologically, first), as the New Covenant.
Hi Angelina,
I agree. But then I was thinking about the disciples who had seen Jesus, Who said 'blessed' will be those who have not seen yet believe, and maybe we could say the disciples would have had to exercise faith after Jesus ascended? It reminds me of when God withdrew His presence in the wilderness, and they had to trust Him every day for manna - to eat their portion today, not 'knowing' there would be a portion tomorrow.
Picking up on your point about faith one step further, we who have believed have eternal life now.
Hi jiggyfly,
When the dead are raised, and there are a majority who did not have eternal life before they died (because we know the way to life is narrow and few there be that find it), on what basis they would qualify for eternal life then?
And this: 1 Corinthians 1:21b '... it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.'
2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
In other words, those who look at the god of this world instead of God, go blind.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
And why would Peter be concerned about perishing, and repentance, if they are not real issues to God, which have to be taken seriously by man?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It seems that translation is from a minority text.... possibly Westcott and Hort.... who altered quite a few things to suit themselves.
The TR translations end with 'confess to God'. The original statement doesn't use the word 'confess', which was nearly always associated with turning back to God and ceasing from idolatry (sin), in the OT.
(KJV) Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2 Corinthians 5:19 '... God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...'
I do not read this as everyone has had their sins forgiven, but rather, that the means for everyone's sins to be forgiven had been arranged between the Father and the Son though the covenant they made with each other, which was brought to the Jewish people primarily (chronologically, first), as the New Covenant.
Hi Angelina,
I agree. But then I was thinking about the disciples who had seen Jesus, Who said 'blessed' will be those who have not seen yet believe, and maybe we could say the disciples would have had to exercise faith after Jesus ascended? It reminds me of when God withdrew His presence in the wilderness, and they had to trust Him every day for manna - to eat their portion today, not 'knowing' there would be a portion tomorrow.
Picking up on your point about faith one step further, we who have believed have eternal life now.
Hi jiggyfly,
When the dead are raised, and there are a majority who did not have eternal life before they died (because we know the way to life is narrow and few there be that find it), on what basis they would qualify for eternal life then?
And this: 1 Corinthians 1:21b '... it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.'
2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
In other words, those who look at the god of this world instead of God, go blind.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
And why would Peter be concerned about perishing, and repentance, if they are not real issues to God, which have to be taken seriously by man?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
justaname
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Jiggy,
Can you post those scriptures please?
Effectual grace that is glorifying in it's salvation process is different than the torment of the lake of fire. Only the elect by God's choice for His name sake will receive this. The salvation from the first death all will receive, this is the hope we have in the resurrection;
but to be thrown into the lake of fire by the one who redeemed you is the pearl of destruction for those who are the enemies of God. The separation between the wheat and tares is final being the tares are burned and the wheat is collected for the storehouse.
Remember the last enemy is death, hence the resurrection. At the impending judgment do you desire to be blameless or guilty of the least of these. Believe in the name of Jesus Christ and you need not be separated as tares. To be heirs of the Kingdom you must have faith.
Without faith no one can please God.
Can you post those scriptures please?
Effectual grace that is glorifying in it's salvation process is different than the torment of the lake of fire. Only the elect by God's choice for His name sake will receive this. The salvation from the first death all will receive, this is the hope we have in the resurrection;
but to be thrown into the lake of fire by the one who redeemed you is the pearl of destruction for those who are the enemies of God. The separation between the wheat and tares is final being the tares are burned and the wheat is collected for the storehouse.
Remember the last enemy is death, hence the resurrection. At the impending judgment do you desire to be blameless or guilty of the least of these. Believe in the name of Jesus Christ and you need not be separated as tares. To be heirs of the Kingdom you must have faith.
Without faith no one can please God.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
When all is subjected to God those who were the enemies of Christ will be subjected as enemies, and will be under the feet of the Son; their knees will have bowed.
Those who are beloved will be subjected as beloved, who have willfully submitted themselves to God.
Dear Justaname,
You mentioned the wheat and the tares parable. That parable is concerning the kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. The wheat and the tares are within you. God will burn out the tares and leave the wheat. The wheat comes from the good seed spread by Christ. The tares represent the bad seed spread by Satan. We ALL have tares within us that must be burned (judged) out of us.
Christ words are Spirit. Everything he said along with the parables is not literal. You must have spiritual eyes and ears to understand them. Christ purposely hid His true meaning so that He can reveal it to whom He choses. Salvation in this age is only for the church. Christ is not trying to save everyone at this time. But that does not mean those not saved in this age are lost forever. Christ will save them at the end of the harvest season. The church is merely the first fruits of the harvest, not the full harvest.
Also, faith is a gift from God. Until Christ gives it to you, you will never have any. Nothing good comes from within us. We are made carnal sinful creatures who hate God. But God gives us of His faith and draws us to Him and we react by repenting. God is the cause of our repenting, not us. When He gives His gifts to the lost and calls out to them, they too will repent and come to Him. Just because He has not called all mankind to Himself in this age does not mean He has stopped His work. His work will go on in the ages to come until the last lost person is saved.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joe
The reason I cannot agree with UR is that there are so many passages in scripture that speak of punishment...eternal punishment at that, for those who scorn Christ. Passages that speak of how important it is to teach Christ NOW...to come to Christ NOW. Why on earth any of these things if....pffft, it'll all pan out. Now, or later, I'll still end up 'up there'. Absolutely nothing in scripture gives us that idea...even gives us leave to speculate upon it. If all there is is the word "all" occasionally, well, I'd beg you to consider your doctrine very, very carefully. In light only of scripture, not on what makes you comfortable or seems 'fair'.
Mark do you know what reconciliation means?
Do you mean all the scriptures that declare UR? There are many and yes I can post them but I really wanted to discuss them and if I just post them all now many will be ignored.
The only one to discuss the the scripture I did post only wanted to cover part of it and ignore the rest. But I'll tell you what, I will post another scripture or two and respond to those who want to examine the scripture to get to the truth and not justify religious paradigm and doctrine.
35 “Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
Luke 6:35-36 (NLT)
Let's try again with this scripture.
justaname
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Jiggy,
Actually the original question was, "So I have to ask, is there a scripture that supports the belief that after refusing Jesus as Savior one might receive another chance after they have fallen into the great sleep?"
Now for the passage you just posted that directly coincides with this passage:
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Actually the original question was, "So I have to ask, is there a scripture that supports the belief that after refusing Jesus as Savior one might receive another chance after they have fallen into the great sleep?"
Now for the passage you just posted that directly coincides with this passage:
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Our reconciliation is not the same as the reconciliation as those who do not accept Jesus as the Christ.
• (reconcile someone to) make someone accept (a disagreeable or unwelcome thing): he could not reconcile himself to the thought of his mother stocking shelves | he was reconciled to leaving
From what I gather from the scriptures is the reconciliation of the unbelievers is the second death. This reconciliation coincides with fact that God is just. I do not know of any passage that suggest this reconciliation is not final, rather it seems to me the opposite is true.
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