Universal Reconciliation

[Episkopos]

Dear Dragonfly,
Your lengthy dialogue was well thought out and I'm sure you spent some time in writing it. But most of it is not supported by scripture and it comes from the carnal reasoning of man as expressed by the harlot church.

Why do you believe that your "free will" gives you to the power to resist sin? Scripture says it does not and not only that, it says you do not have "free will". God's "will" rules over our "will". Our "will" is not free and we have no power to resist sin. Adam was given a command not to eat from the tree of good and evil. That command does not mean that we have the power within ourselves to obey that command. Do you not know that the law of Moses was given so that sin would increase? God made us carnal and spiritually weak. The law and the command given to Adam, was given to us by God to expose our sinful condition. If mankind can obey God from our supposed "free will", then the Holy Spirit is not needed. But the Holy Spirit is needed to empower us to resist sin. If Christ would have come in the same spiritual condition as mankind is born with, He would have sinned like we all do. But He came with the full measure of the Spirit and that is why He never sinned. Adam was created in such a way that he could not possibly avoid disobeying God. As I said, the law was given to prove to us that we are not capable of resisting temptations. We must be changed from the inside out and to do that, we need a Savior. If you are trying to "earn" you salvation by following the Law, you will not be in Christ's church. Only by the empowering of the Holy Spirit do you have any ability to avoid sinning. But even those who have the Holy Spirit still sin. Why? Because at this time, we are only given an earnest amount of the Spirit. And because we only have an earnest amount, we will still sin when our Old man rears his ugly head. As we spiritually mature through judgment, our Old man is slowly destroyed and the New Man slowly takes control. Then upon resurrection from the dead, we are given the full measure of the Holy Spirit and a new spiritual body to match. At that time, we are born again and will never sin again. We will have been changed from a wicked carnal creature into a child of God Almightly. It takes time for Christ to make this change in us. But His Word says that He will do it for each of us, but "every man in His own order" starting with His church.

Now concerning the Holy Spirit, if a person believes that God is going to fail to change ALL of mankind into His image but will instead torment them in fire for all eternity, that belief comes from the spirit of antichrist and not the Holy Spirit. God is love and love is long suffering, thinks not evil and above all, NEVER fails (1Cor 13:4-8). Your belief that God will fail most of mankind and will peramently harm them in judgment is absolutely void of love and does not come from God. God's judgement destroys our "man of sin" and that is good for the individually being judged. Without it, we would all remain carnal. Paul said that He died daily. That "dying" was because his Old Man was being judged. By the end of Paul life, His Old Man was dead and he will ready to be reborn at the time of His resurrection. Why do you insist that God's judgment is a nightmare for mankind - that it never ends and produces only harm for the person being judged? It is no wonder that the God you preach is shunned by most of the world. You believe that God draws us to Himself out of fear of Him. Scripture says that we are drawn to Him out of love. The harlot church created this fear doctrine to have control over the people and to use this fear to squeeze money out of them. The harlot church will be spewed out of the mouth of Christ and He will tell them that "I never knew you". If you continue along the path you are on, you will get to hear those words of Christ. And because you say you "see", you will be held accountable for all the false doctrines that you teach. But unlike you, I know Christ will produce a good change in you through the judgment He puts you through in the final age. Your salvation is certain but unless Christ comes to you and opens your eyes, you will not have the blessing of being in Christ's church.
Joe



Dear Rach,

You said:
Just because you were not saved for the 44 years you were in orthodox Churches

Scripture says that no one is saved during this lifetime. We are only saved AFTER we complete the course and have remained faithful until the end. THEN upon resurrection, we are saved (fully changed). It is all the work of Christ to change us and He will not fail.

The gospel you preach is a nightmare for most of the world. Your doctrine of hell is evil to its core. Can you imagine doing anything more evil than to harm someone your know & love with fire for all eternity and then tell them that you will never help them or forgive them for their sinful ways? What if one of those persons is one of your own children? Would you not forgive them? Would you continue to punish them with fire for trillions and trillions for years and then say to them that their punishment is only just getting started? Would you quit loving your child? If they cried out for help, would you not help them?

Even by the world's standards, a person who would do what you say God is going to do would be put in prison and never released. The doctrine of hell is void of love and I suspect you would never do anything I just described to one of your own children. I certainly would not to one of mine. Yet you teach that God most certainly will do that to His children. Can't you see that your doctrine of Hell contradicts God's character?

With my children (I have 3 boys), I would forgive them for anything that they might ever do. I would continue to work to change them (discipline) so that they would never do wrong again. And if I had the same power and wisdom of God, I know that I would never fail them. And finally, through it all, I would never stop loving them. That is what a good parent does.

Rach, are you a good parent or are you like the God you preach to the world?

Your god has a time limit on His love and mercy. Your god is not longsuffering. Your god torments His own children in fire and calls that justice. Your god is worse to his children than any parent I have ever known. At least the bad parents in this world who harm their children can only do so until the child dies. Your god will not let his children die so that he can go on and on tormenting them. Your god is evil. Your god is not the god of scripture.

Can't you see that your doctrine of Hell does not fit with the character and holiness of the true God of scripture? He is longsuffering. He is patient. He is kind. His love and mercy never end. He took our sins upon Himself because He did not want us to perish in death. He will work restlessly until He corrects ALL our sinful ways. My God uses judgment for corrective purposes. My God wants to save us all. My God will do all that is necessary to save us all - He even died for us. My God is love and His love NEVER fails. And thank God that my God is the true God of scripture.

Unless you repent, my God is going to hold you accountable for blasphaming His name throughout this forum.

Joe

This is Armstrong teaching...world wide church of God. The plain truth???? Are you or were you involved in that movement Joe?

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Wow, Mr....you are seriously confused. I'm very, very sorry you find the God of the bible a horrible, tormenting, evil monster...but that in itself shows how confused you are, and how badly you misread scripture.
But apart from your obvious confusion and mistaken beliefs, I do have to wonder why on earth you: 1- came to this board, as it is full of "blasphemers"...you know, people who believe the bible to be saying exactly what it is....and 2- why you decided to zone in on me with all the accusations above...I don't remember putting down all my beliefs or even most of them in this thread...so you're either making wild assumptions, or you've taken the time to go through all the threads and find out exactly what I believe. So I must ask....have you made all those accusations above simply because I disagreed with you and your rather nasty insistence to call most of the people here 'harlot'? I suppose I must thank you in a way, by going on your tirade above you've given me a much clearer vision of your beliefs and how you are apparently willing to attack, and make up doctrines for someone you've has 2 brief conversations with. Yup....as I said, confused.

Dear Rach,
You clearly said that you support the orthodox teaching of hell. Also, I know the God of scripture is loving, merciful and longsuffering. He would never do what the orthodox teaching of hell says he will do. Only Satan would do such a thing. It is your god who is without love and mercy for most of mankind. Also, I do not find the God of scripture to be a "horrible, tormenting, evil monster. That certainly is not the God I know and love BUT it is the god of the harlot (orthodox) church.

I come to this forum for two reasons:

1. To rebuke and expose the false teachings of the harlot church as instucted by the book of Titus.
2. To be a voice calling out into the wilderness (harlot church) to "come out of her my people" (Rev 18:4).

Christ called me out of her back in 2005. He healed my spiritual vision so that the scriptures would open up to me. Absolutely nothing that the harlot teaches is truth. She is completely harlot (Matt 13:33) and does not know Christ. The leaven has leavened the whole loaf and it is competely corrupted. But from this same harlot, Christ "choses" His Elect. When He comes to His Elect a second time, they too will hear His voice and come out of her. Christ works through His Elect to be His voice who calls them out. I know a few like me who I have met on the internet. We are not connected by anything but Christ. Christ's Elect do not go to "church" or associate with any "group". We serve Christ and each other when possible. But we are "few" in number. We have all had similar experiences in the harlot church and have each been called out of her to follow the true Christ of scripture. The true Christ of scripture is patient and kind, forgiving and merciful, all powerful and all knowing but above all, He is LOVE. Because of His great and perfect love for His creation, He died to save us from death. But He also came to stop us from continuing to sin as well. He accomplished saving us ALL from death at the cross and is now coming to each person at their appointed time to changed them into a sinless New Man in Christ. John 10:10 sums it up best. He will not fail to change us all but "every man in his own order (1Cor 15:20-28). His church is changed first and then everyone else at the comsummation (the end) in the final age. The church is the FIRST fruits of the harvest, not the ONLY fruits. There will come a time in the final age where the full harvest of mankind will be brought into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Your orthodox teachings make Christ out to be a failure, but to make it even worse, you make Him out to be a livng nightnare for most of mankind. Have you ever really thought about your teaching of "hell" for more than a few seconds? It is hard to do because it is so hideous and void of love. I cannot think of anything worse than what your hell doctrine teaches that any evil human could ever do to someone. But you believe your God is capable of doing it and you are okay with it. Do you not know that someday Christ is going to wipe away all the tears of His children? How can that be possilbe if most of the people you know and love are being tormented in the fires of hell for all eternity? And your Christ says that you can do nothing about it! How can you want to follow such a god as the one the harlot (orthodox) church has created? Is your heart void of love for your fellow man? Do you not have any mercy? You should flee to the mountains and not look back. Once you flee, you will know that her destruction is at hand. But you won't flee to the mountains because you have no idea what I am saying to you, nor can you believe it.

Surely you can understand my feelings of anger and sadness toward those who believe and teach that Christ is such a monster as the doctrine of hell proclaims? Your doctrine of hell that you support blasphemes His name throughout the world. It is no wonder Christ is going to spew the harlot church out of His mouth and say to them that He never knew them. But the harlot church says that they can "see" (have spiritual vision), and because of this claim, they will be held accountable for that blasphemy. But Christ will forgive them and they too will someday know the true Christ who has revealed Himself to me. He is in the scripture to know if you truly have been given "eyes that can see and ears that can hear". But until Christ gives you that gift, the harlot church members will go on being deceived by Satan and will continue to follow his ways and teachings (parable of the wheat and the tares). It is all part of the plan of God revealed in scripture to those who have been given the ability to see it.

But just has destruction suddenly came upon Paul on the road to Damascus, it can suddenly come upon you as well. If it does, your world will be shaken and turned upside down. Your "church" will reject you and then you will flee to the mountains to find the true Christ. But don't look back, if you do, you are not worthy of the blessing of the true church.

Joe

Universal Reconciliation is not going to happen because the Lord created the first heavens and earth to decay. It is already told in scripture that the first heaven and earth will pass away. Behold he makes all things new. No reconciliation there. When it comes to his people only those who are worthy will make it.

37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ,

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

Dear Son of man,
You said it yourself and you can't even see it. "Behold, he makes all things new". Why do you insist that He won't make all things knew?
Joe

Joe, every way that you display God and His character not only towards His Children but those outside of Christ is so completely unscriptural that it is difficult at best to take anything you say seriously. Not only do you demean and do serious damage to God's character and attributes but you do the same to men. God is not a bully but that is how you represent Him whether you know it or not. It makes me wonder about your interactions with people if you think that man has no freedom of choice and that God will just have His way with men regardless of what their choices are. This is not the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

Is this how you see the interaction of God's love with mankind. That God will force, coerce and manipulate men that do not love Him. That is sick when you think about what that looks like in real life. A human being that does that usually goes to jail if caught.

I am sorry that this is how God appears to you and even more sorry that you are propagating this misinformation about Him.

What was the cross for, why the need for the indwelling Holy Spirit, why any talk about love and relationship in the New Testament, what is His death and the spilling of His blood for, why is there a doctrine of sin, etc, etc, etc? Your beliefs Joe, do violence to most every major Christian doctrine supported by the Church for the last 20 centuries. You corrupt, twist and malign God's word and you want us to accept your mis-characterizations of God.

I see how you treat people that disagree with you. That gives me a little window into your real life interactions.
But according to you, bullying bears fruit, because after all, "all men will be saved whether they like it or not!"

Joe,

Does your Bible say that the children of God are only those by faith in His Son?
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Does your Bible say that Jesus told some people their father was the Devil?
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Does your Bible say that there are children of God and children of the devil?
1Jn_3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What ever father/Father you belong to is the one you will be spending eternity with. Pretty simple and plain teaching, Joe.

Axehead

Dear Axehead,
It is amazing to me how you continue to misunderstand what I write after all I have said to you. Christ will cause us all to willingly love Him. It is not forced. He will give us "gifts" that will destroy our carnal mind who hates Him. Once He does this and reveals Himself to each person, they will willingly respond by loving Him. God knows us inside and out. He knows how to cause us to love Him. I have explained this before. Why do you not get it?

If you are married, don't you love your wife? Does she do things that cause you to love her? It will be the same with God but infinitely so. But until you carnal mind is destroyed, a person cannot love God. We all must wait on Christ to do this work in our lives.

Please try not to misrepresent what I teach. It isn't that hard to understand but I do know that without Christ, it is impossible to believe.
Joe

This is Armstrong teaching...world wide church of God. The plain truth???? Are you or were you involved in that movement Joe?

Dear Episkopos,
No, I have never been involved with that harlot church and I know very little about them. My time in the harlot church was spent in the "Church of Christ", "Christian Church", "Baptist church", many "nondenominational churches" and finally a "Pentecostal church". All of them are harlot and their doctrines are mostly the same. They all believe in the Trinity, tithing, free will, hell, a false Gospel, etc. etc.

Until the Lord takes you through the full process that He took Paul through, you will be spiritually blind and led around by the hand - the blind leading the blind. When Christ first came to Paul, Paul was spiritually blinded (represented by Paul's physical blindness) but still accepted Him as Lord. But because He was spriitually blind, he was led by the hand into the harlot church (going to Damscus blind). Then after 3 days (in the grave for 3 days), Christ came again and fully healed his vision by giving him the Holy Spirit. We all spend "3 days" in the harlot church. It is not any certain literal number of days. The number 3 represents a time death or a time in the grave, spiritual death). We spend this "3" days in the harlot. Most people will physically die there in the wilderness as the Israelites did, but for the sake of the Elect (Joshua & Caleb), Christ will come again to them and receive them to Himself (giving of the Holy Spirit). Those in the harlot church are carnally minded and spiritually blind (where Paul was for 3 days) and do not have the Holy Spirit. They are lead around by the hand and both will fall into the ditch. Mark 8:20-25 is Christ's teachings on this pattern of spiritual blindness. The blind man (just like Paul) is taken out of the town and Christ reveals Himself to him but only partially because he leaves us nearsighted. This nearsightedness is referred to has being spriitually blind and is the same time that Paul is blind for 3 days. But "after 3 days", Christ will come again to His Elect, and heal their vision completely. It is at this point, His Elect flee to the mountains (Matt 24 and story of Lot) to escape the harlot and find the true Christ. Has they spiritually matured, they find that Christ is not in the mountains but lives in the heavens. Once they are able to walk by the Spirit (spiritually mature), they will join Christ there in the heavens.

We all must spend our time as carnal spiritually blind Christians who are deceived by Satan. We are at Christ's mercy to come to us a second time to heal us so that we can flee from her. But Christ only comes back a second time to His Elect in this age, those He has chosen to be in His church. We cannot "choose" outselves into HIS church. He must choose us. His Elect are called (into the harlot church), chosen (come out of her) and faithful (spiritually mature to walk by His Spirit) (Rev 17:14). It is all the work of Christ. We cannot save ourselves. It is not possible. Christ is the SAVIOR and we must wait on Him to save us (change us into a New Man in Christ). The true church is saved first (first fruits) and all the rest will be harvested at the end of the growing season (final age - the Lake of Fire age). All mankind will be saved. God would have it no other way.

1Tim 2:4-6 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME.

Joe

 

[dragonfly]

Dear Joe,

Thanks for your reply to me. :huh:

I realise you really believe all the things you write, and that you know you are not 'preaching' orthodox Christianity, but I strongly object to your mixture of conjecture and misinterpretations of scripture, which do great disservice to God's reputation.

Especially, when He said everything was very good, you say it was evil. That's an extremely serious accusation against God's character.


This is what the prophet Isaiah heard from God to say to people who promote the reversal of truth. Gen 3:1

Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;

that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;

that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.


Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good.

And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[Rach1370]

Dear Rach,
You clearly said that you support the orthodox teaching of hell. Also, I know the God of scripture is loving, merciful and longsuffering. He would never do what the orthodox teaching of hell says he will do. Only Satan would do such a thing. It is your god who is without love and mercy for most of mankind. Also, I do not find the God of scripture to be a "horrible, tormenting, evil monster. That certainly is not the God I know and love BUT it is the god of the harlot (orthodox) church.

Actually, I never said I supported the doctrine of hell....but you are right...I do. Why? Because it is clearly is the bible. Jesus himself talks about hell more than anyone else does in the whole bible...you might want to consider why that is.

Something else you need to consider.....you say God is 'loving, merciful and long suffering'....which I agree with...it is how scripture paints him....but he is also Just. Completely Just and completely Holy and his wrath against sin and sinners is well documented and explained in scripture...

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matthew 3:7-10 ESV)

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36 ESV)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (Romans 1:18 ESV)

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. (Romans 2:5 ESV)

but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, (Romans 2:8-9 ESV)

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” (Romans 12:19 ESV)

On and on it goes...do a word search for 'wrath' if you doubt me.

Your orthodox teachings make Christ out to be a failure, but to make it even worse, you make Him out to be a livng nightnare for most of mankind. Have you ever really thought about your teaching of "hell" for more than a few seconds? It is hard to do because it is so hideous and void of love. I cannot think of anything worse than what your hell doctrine teaches that any evil human could ever do to someone. But you believe your God is capable of doing it and you are okay with it. Do you not know that someday Christ is going to wipe away all the tears of His children? How can that be possilbe if most of the people you know and love are being tormented in the fires of hell for all eternity? And your Christ says that you can do nothing about it! How can you want to follow such a god as the one the harlot (orthodox) church has created? Is your heart void of love for your fellow man? Do you not have any mercy? You should flee to the mountains and not look back. Once you flee, you will know that her destruction is at hand. But you won't flee to the mountains because you have no idea what I am saying to you, nor can you believe it.

Orthodox teaching makes Christ look like a failure?? Oh, that's funny! You really didn't listen those 44 years did you? I wonder what Church you went to, or what was going on in your life during that time that you didn't hear even a fraction of what I do. And I don't just hear it from Church or the people around me....it's all there in the bible, the black and white teaching of how Jesus is everything.
How about this...in my very meagre way, I'll try to summarize exactly what Jesus has done:

• Humankind sins and falls...now alienated from God who is holy and has just wrath towards us.
• God begins preaching the gospel throughout the OT...come to me, repent and follow me and I will save you...there will come I time where I will send one who can take this load from you.
• Jesus comes and begins his earthly ministry....repent and believe in me and I will give you forgiveness.
• Jesus dies in our place, for our sins, making those to come to him, love him and serve him, right with God once more.
• Jesus ascends into heaven and sends us the Holy Spirit, who opens our eyes to the truth and helps us live an empowered life in Christ, repenting and growing as we go.
• Paul then teaches us that even our faith and ability to grow in Christ is a gift from God, which means all glory and praise for our new state goes to him and only him.
• We know that on the last day Jesus will return to call us home to him forever and to judge men...all of them:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”(Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 ESV)

Surely you can understand my feelings of anger and sadness toward those who believe and teach that Christ is such a monster as the doctrine of hell proclaims? Your doctrine of hell that you support blasphemes His name throughout the world. It is no wonder Christ is going to spew the harlot church out of His mouth and say to them that He never knew them. But the harlot church says that they can "see" (have spiritual vision), and because of this claim, they will be held accountable for that blasphemy. But Christ will forgive them and they too will someday know the true Christ who has revealed Himself to me. He is in the scripture to know if you truly have been given "eyes that can see and ears that can hear". But until Christ gives you that gift, the harlot church members will go on being deceived by Satan and will continue to follow his ways and teachings (parable of the wheat and the tares). It is all part of the plan of God revealed in scripture to those who have been given the ability to see it.

You can understand my feelings of anger and sadness towards those who don't like what scripture teaches, and so twist it and make things up to make themselves feel better about it. How they obviously can't love God and his Son Jesus (despite all they've done for us) as they reveal themselves to us in scripture, and feel they need to call them unfair, horrible, unloving...all because they cannot understand that a loving God MUST be Just also, or he would not be loving at all. It saddens me that they need to make up a new god to fit their own parameters of what 'loving' and 'fair' must be...how this god will allow people who hate him, refuse and deny him and his people to live with them forever in 'paradise'....how these people cannot reconcile what the bible really says, so calls those that are true to it's Word 'harlot'.

But just has destruction suddenly came upon Paul on the road to Damascus, it can suddenly come upon you as well. If it does, your world will be shaken and turned upside down. Your "church" will reject you and then you will flee to the mountains to find the true Christ. But don't look back, if you do, you are not worthy of the blessing of the true church.

Wow...mix and swap stories, huh? Well, first of all, Paul was not destroyed on the road to Damascus....he was reborn. My goodness, the strength, zeal and courage he got from that amazing transformation? Paul's conversion is not one to be feared, but to be marvelled at!!
As to fleeing to the mountain, and 'not looking back'....I'm not sure what Revelations and Lot's wife has to do with anything, but it sure sounds nifty....to bad nothing in scripture actually supports anything you've said. What bible do you read again??

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

[font=Verdana']19[/font] For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,[font=Verdana']20[/font] and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
[font=Verdana']21[/font] This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.[font=Verdana']22[/font] Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.[font=Verdana']23[/font] But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God’s servant to proclaim it.
Col 1:19-23 (NLT)

I see the evidence of UR all through the scriptures and here is a good one to start off the discussion.

If YOU had been a member of that group of people that that letter was sent to maybe, but I really don't think you were around at that time were you?
Here's what Paul teaches:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 and it is what he had taught them before he wrote that letter to only them. I think this UR conjecture you are trying to promote just went out the window. For your conjecture to hold up you are going to have to prove Rom. 2:13 is false first. Before proceeding further. Have a good day.

 

[us2are1]

Dear Son of man,
You said it yourself and you can't even see it. "Behold, he makes all things new". Why do you insist that He won't make all things knew?
Joe

You have to know what He is going to make new.

The sea and all that is in it will not be repeated. Much study to get the whole picture. Or you can ask God for His Spirit and learn it all from Him. At any rate universalism is a farce. The new universe that God creates will not even resemble what is here now.

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Dear Joe,

Thanks for your reply to me. :huh:

I realise you really believe all the things you write, and that you know you are not 'preaching' orthodox Christianity, but I strongly object to your mixture of conjecture and misinterpretations of scripture, which do great disservice to God's reputation.

Especially, when He said everything was very good, you say it was evil. That's an extremely serious accusation against God's character.


This is what the prophet Isaiah heard from God to say to people who promote the reversal of truth. Gen 3:1

Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;

that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;

that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.


Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good.

And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Dear Dragonfly,
You still do not understand. When God finished the creation and said that it was "good", it was exactly that. In fact, it was perfect for producing many new children who will be made in the image of God. Without the evil, mankind would be lacking in knowledge. God is using the evil that he produces to work together with everything else in His creation to produce "good". Mankind is that "good" once we are all "in Christ". Nothing is out of God's control in His creation. He created and is responsilble for all the evil in this world. He uses that evil for His good purposes. To believe otherwise is to believe that God's creation is out of control and that God is merely trying to salvage what He can. But that is utter nonsense. God is completely and absolutely in control of all things and is even the cause behind it all. The scriptures say so but because it doesn't fit into your box of who God is, you can't accept it. Don't put God in a box. Believe the scriptures and if the Lord is willing, you will find the knowledge of God.
Joe

Dear Rach,

You said:
Actually, I never said I supported the doctrine of hell....but you are right...I do. Why? Because it is clearly is the bible. Jesus himself talks about hell more than anyone else does in the whole bible...you might want to consider why that is.

Hell is the "unseen place" or the "grave". Jesus came to save us from the grave because that is the penalty of sin. No where in scripture does it say that being tormented in fire for all eternity is the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin is death. In death, we perish. But thanks to Christ's work on the cross, Christ will resurrect us all from the grave/death/hell. Have you ever really studied the greek words that have been translated as "hell"? What you will find is that "hades" is the unseen place of the grave. Also, it is sometimes referring to the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. At no time is it speaking of the "Lake of Fire" that is normally considered to be the Christian hell.

Here is a verse for you to consider:

Rev 20:12-14 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation is a book of symbols that have spiritual meaning and it's meaning is concealed to all but Christ's Elect.

If your Christian hell is cast into your Christian hell as the above scripture says, it makes no sense. Here is the proper understanding of the verses above: The dead that STAND before the throne are saved by faith and are the Old Testament saints. They go into life but were not part of the "church" - they do not have that blessing but they do receive life in the final age. The "sea" is a symbol for unbelievers - they dwell in the sea, the lowest part of the earth. So all those that "dwell in the sea" will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Those who were in death and hell are those who dwell on the earth. The earth is for the harlot church. It is a little higher than the sea but is still far below where Christ dwells which is in the "heavens". All of those places; the "sea", "death & hell" are symbols for being dead. When one is dead, they have no life and no consciousness. They would have perished if they would not have been resurrected from the "dead". The "hell" that Christ spoke of most of the time is death & hell and "death & hell" represent the state of being dead. Upon the the resurrection of all those who remain "unsaved", they will be judged in the "Lake of Fire". The "Lake of Fire" will then contain those people who were in "death and hell". But the Lake of Fire is also a symbol. God is a consuming fire and the lake is a confined place where the unsaved live. The Lake of Fire is not a literal lake nor is it literal fire. It represents a confined place of judgment. The lake is also said to contain "brimstone". Brimstone is made of suffer which is a purifing agent. Those unsaved persons who are now being judged, will finally be held to account for their sins and they will "learn righteousness" from their judgment. Later in Revelation, those same people are shown to live outside the gates of the New Jerusalem on the NEW EARTH. At that time, there will be no more sea - no more unbelievers. Everyone will be called to Christ and judged on the earth - the same location where carnal/harlot Christians dwell. But from their judgment, their Old Man (carnal nature) will be destroyed and replaced with the Holy Spirit. At the consummation of the Lake of Fire age, the great harvest of mankind will begin. The church is judged now to destroy their Old man and the unsaved in the Lake of FIre will be judged there to produce the same results. Judgment is a necessary part of salvation. WE ALL MUST DIE SO THAT THE NEW MAN IN CHRIST WILL LIVE. Destruction is something we all must go through to be in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Also, as I said in an earlier post, "heaven" is inside us and is the New Man. The salvation that Christ came to give us is twofold. 1. To save us from the penalty of sin which is death. He paid that penalty on the cross for all mankind and now all mankind will not perish in death but will be resurrected back to life. But being alive again does not address our sinful ways. 2. The second part of our salvation is to change us from a sinful creature into a New Man in Christ - one who will never sin again. Christ saved us all from death at the cross but to change us all into a New Man will take this age and two more to come. Christ will call us all to Him and reveal Himself to us, judge us and give us His Spirit to dwell in us. Once this is done for the last person, then death and sin will be conquered and God will be "all in all". It is all the work of Christ and we must wait on Him to save us.

You said:
Something else you need to consider.....you say God is 'loving, merciful and long suffering'....which I agree with...it is how scripture paints him....but he is also Just. Completely Just and completely Holy and his wrath against sin and sinners is well documented and explained in scripture...

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matthew 3:7-10 ESV)

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36 ESV)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (Romans 1:18 ESV)

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. (Romans 2:5 ESV)

but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, (Romans 2:8-9 ESV)

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” (Romans 12:19 ESV)

On and on it goes...do a word search for 'wrath' if you doubt me.

Orthodox teaching makes Christ look like a failure?? Oh, that's funny! You really didn't listen those 44 years did you? I wonder what Church you went to, or what was going on in your life during that time that you didn't hear even a fraction of what I do. And I don't just hear it from Church or the people around me....it's all there in the bible, the black and white teaching of how Jesus is everything.

Rach, back when I was in the harlot church (Church of Christ, baptist, nondenominational and finally pentecostal), I probably believed everything that you currently believe. I used to even teach on "hell" as you believe it. I was as harlot as they come. But that all changed for me on Oct. 8, 2005. On that day, Christ came to me (spiritually) and opened my eyes. Within two weeks, I fled from the "church" was I a member and have never looked back. Over the years, I have learned much about Christ through His Word. The Word is spiritual and it takes spiritual discernment to understand it. I could say much more about having "eyes that can see and ears that can hear" but now is not the time.

Now back to the subject. God is holy and just (as you say) and that is exactly WHY He sent Christ to be the Savior of the World. He took away the sins of the world on the cross. Do you believe it?

[font="Trebuchet MS""] 1John[/font][font="Trebuchet MS""] 4: 14 A nd we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.[/font]

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Do you think that John the Baptist was wrong when He said that Christ will take away the sins of the world? Or do you only believe that He only took away the sins of a small part of the world as the harlot churches teach? You need to let scripture teach you the truth and stop listening to what you have been told it says by the harlot churches. The harlot church is spiritually blind and they do not know the truth. They have been totally infected with "leaven". Do you have enough spiritual discernment to understand that leaven is false teachings? Remember, in Mark 8:20-25, the blind man is only made spiritually nearsighted upon the first coming of Christ. Not ALL spirituall understanding is concealed to the "called". But most of it is and that is why they have been deceived by Satan and are following his teachings instead of Christ. The doctrine of "free will" and hell are the centerpieces of Satan's lies.

Since God is "just", Christ's death on the cross has to apply to ALL mankind or those to whom it doesn't apply will stay in the grave (hell). But since it does apply to all mankind, Christ will resurrect ALL mankind. Surely you know that is true, that Christ will raise all mankind in either the 1st or 2nd resurrections??? He only has that power (given the keys to death and hell) because His death paid the penalty of death for the sins of the world. God is "just" as you say, therefore, John the Baptist was correct when He said that Christ will take away our sins.

Since our sins are taken away, we all must be reborn so that we will not sin any longer. That too is the work of Christ that He is performing for His church now and He will do it individually for each person who has ever lived, to be "testified in due time":

[font="Trebuchet MS""] John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.[/font]


Do you believe this verse above? Do you really believe that since Christ was resurrected (lifted up) that He will actually draw all men to Himself? If you don't believe Christ can do it, then there is no sense in going any further. For now, I will continue as if you believe it.

In order for all men to be drawn to Him, they have to be alive for this to happen. All those who lived before Christ was "lifted up" cannot be drawn to Him unless it happens AFTER their resurrection and their being cast into the Lake of Fire. Can you see the logic in this? In this age, Christ is ONLY revealing Himself to those whom He has chosen for His church. That is why scripture (which is Christ) is concealed and written in parables and symbols. Christ is not allowing anyone to know Him until He is ready to reveal Himself to them. For most of mankind, He will reveal Himself to them in the Lake of Fire age. If you believe the verses above, then the Lake of Fire age is the ONLY place and time Christ can fulfill His statement of DRAWING ALL MEN UNTO HIMSELF.

Now read this verse:

[font="Trebuchet MS""]John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/font]

Do you believe it when it says that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father draw Him? I hope so because this scripture doesn't leave any room for any other conclusion. Each person will be drawn to Christ and the Father is the one who will draw them - no "free will" here. Then the verse goes on to say that those who are drawn to Him (that's everyone), will be raised up at the last day. Being "raised up" is salvation and it will occur on the "last day". What day is the "last day". Here is symbolically what the "last day" is and what will happen on that future day:

[font="Trebuchet MS""]John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.[/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS""] [/font]
The feast of Tabernacles is the final feast of the harvest season. It symbolically represents the final ingathering of mankind in the Lake of Fire age. On that "last day", Christ will call for the harvest to be brought into the Kingdom. That "last day" comes to the individual at the time of Christ's choosing. Each person will have a "last day" when they are harvested. Scripture says that the Jews will be last to be harvested. The church is first and then the "fulness of the Gentiles" and finally the Jews.

The church experiences their "last day" in this age. Consider this verse:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

The church experiences the "the ends of the ages" in their life time now. It is a spiritual event within the life of each person. It comes when Christ raises them up and gathers them to Himself. It is not a single one time event in history. The individual nature of the "ends of the ages" is also true of the second coming of Christ. He comes to the individual at a time that He chooses. As I said, He came to me on Oct. 8, 2005. If someone would have told me this on Oct. 7, 2005, I would have thought they were a kook. But now that it has happened to me along with the opening up of the scriptures, I KNOW from experience that it is true.

You said:
How about this...in my very meagre way, I'll try to summarize exactly what Jesus has done:

• Humankind sins and falls...now alienated from God who is holy and has just wrath towards us.
• God begins preaching the gospel throughout the OT...come to me, repent and follow me and I will save you...there will come I time where I will send one who can take this load from you.
• Jesus comes and begins his earthly ministry....repent and believe in me and I will give you forgiveness.
• Jesus dies in our place, for our sins, making those to come to him, love him and serve him, right with God once more.
• Jesus ascends into heaven and sends us the Holy Spirit, who opens our eyes to the truth and helps us live an empowered life in Christ, repenting and growing as we go.
• Paul then teaches us that even our faith and ability to grow in Christ is a gift from God, which means all glory and praise for our new state goes to him and only him.
• We know that on the last day Jesus will return to call us home to him forever and to judge men...all of them:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”(Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 ESV)


The verse you quoted about the "Kingdom being prepared for you" is speaking of the church, the first fruits of the kingdom who will rule and reign as kings and priests. That is the blessing for the "heirs" of the kingdom. Most of mankind will miss this blessing simply because they were NOT CHOSEN for it - much in the same way you missed the blessing of being the mother of Christ like Mary. Christ chose her and not you and in the same matter, Christ chooses a very small group for His church. Most will not be chosen and will not have that blessing. There is nothing anyone can do about it. Some are blessed and some are not. Also, the greek word that is translated here for "eternal" is "aionios". It does not mean "eternal". It is the adjective form of "aion" which means "age". An age has a beginning and an end. It adjective takes on the same meaning. It can NEVER mean "eternal". The "eternal" definition was added AFTER the scriptures were written to accomodate the teachings on hell. Here is how YLT translated the verse:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.

The church has life "during" the ages where as everyone else does not have "life" until the end when the kingdom is completed and delivered up to the Father.

You said:
You can understand my feelings of anger and sadness towards those who don't like what scripture teaches, and so twist it and make things up to make themselves feel better about it. How they obviously can't love God and his Son Jesus (despite all they've done for us) as they reveal themselves to us in scripture, and feel they need to call them unfair, horrible, unloving...all because they cannot understand that a loving God MUST be Just also, or he would not be loving at all. It saddens me that they need to make up a new god to fit their own parameters of what 'loving' and 'fair' must be...how this god will allow people who hate him, refuse and deny him and his people to live with them forever in 'paradise'....how these people cannot reconcile what the bible really says, so calls those that are true to it's Word 'harlot'.

Rach, I would have said the same things on Oct. 7, 2005. But the spiritually blind cannot know the truth of scripture nor can they know the true Christ. It simply is not possible until Christ comes to you a second time and heals your spiritual vision. Once He comes again to you again, your understanding of scripture will be turned upside down. That event in scripture is symbolized with trumpets, earthquakes and thunder. It is quite an event in spiritual terms when it happens to a person. When it happened to me, it was all those things and more. It was the greastest day of my life because I finally came to know my Savior.

You said:
Wow...mix and swap stories, huh? Well, first of all, Paul was not destroyed on the road to Damascus....he was reborn. My goodness, the strength, zeal and courage he got from that amazing transformation? Paul's conversion is not one to be feared, but to be marvelled at!!
As to fleeing to the mountain, and 'not looking back'....I'm not sure what Revelations and Lot's wife has to do with anything, but it sure sounds nifty....to bad nothing in scripture actually supports anything you've said. What bible do you read again??

I misspoke when I said that Paul was "destroyed" on the road to Damascus. On the road to Damasus is where Paul was "called" into the harlot church and then spend "3 days" in it. His destruction began once He received the Holy Spirit. From that day forward, His Old Man died daily while His New Man spritually matured. We are not "born again" until we are resurrected and we receive the full measure of the Holy Spirit. In this life now, we receive only a downpayment of the Holy Spirit. Because we only have a small amount now, we still sin. But as we spiritually mature, we will sin less and less. Then upon resurrection we are "born again". When a person is "born again" they will be like the wind and no one will be able to see from where it came and to where it goes. We will be in a spiritual body once we are "born again". Your understanding (which used to be mine) is false and comes from the harlot church. Right now, we are in the gestation period in Christ's womb. Upon resurrection, He will give birth to us as a child of God. As I have said before, that is what scripture and the plan of God is ALL about - God is making many new children, fully made in His image. Being "born again" is salvation.

I know you cannot understand at this time... BUT someday you will, at the time of Christ's choosing.

Joe

You have to know what He is going to make new.

The sea and all that is in it will not be repeated. Much study to get the whole picture. Or you can ask God for His Spirit and learn it all from Him. At any rate universalism is a farce. The new universe that God creates will not even resemble what is here now.

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

Dear Son of Man,
My response is in my response to Rach above. "All things" really are all things. The sea represents the unbelievers. At the time of the new earth, there will no longer be unbelievers.
Joe

 

[MTPockets]

Hi! 'JoeInArkansas'
I have read your other Thread in the 'General Christian Forum' and responded to it there a bit earlier. But then I saw this similar Thread which I also read with great interest.
So, I'm jus' gonna' copy/paste to this Thread what I submitted earlier; jus' in case yuh missed reading it.

Ummm, 'JoeInArkansas', I hope you don't mind me saying that some of your expressed opinions are not only unscriptural ... they border on being exceedingly irresponsible because they falsely accuse God of character traits which do not belong to Him.
But, for now, I'll just address your challenge as quoted above:

You wrote: "For most people, it seems impossible for Christ to actually save all of mankind. But as for me, I trust Him enough to believe He can accomplish all that He says He will do. Where is your faith to believe Him?"

It might surprise you, 'JoeInArkansas', but I absolutely agree with your testimony saying that nothing is impossible with God because it is in keeping with Luke 1:37
Your earnest to confess that the power of the Gospel of Jesus is able to save all of mankind is a laudable ... and, I commend you for it.

But you should know this one thing, 'JoeInArkansas' ... there is a single power which God cannot command ... it is love ... and that is the very thing that God desires; that a person comes to Him out of love for Him.

And there is one additional issue which God is unable to do:
To unlawfully steal away from Satan those who are/were employed by the evil one. Satan has every legal right and obligation to pay the wages of sin to everyone who became indebted to him.
This is because God is not only completely good and merciful and kind ... He is also completely just.
It could be said that God's love for us is restrained by His exceeding need to be just.
Jesus came to deliver us from the evil one; not steal us from the evil one.

The words of the Apostle Paul confirm this fact: "Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that leads to sin that leads to death or to obedience which leads to righteousness?” Again, we read: "Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but an obligation --- something owed to him"; "Every sin receives retribution; a reward or wage will be duly paid for every disobedience", (Rom 6:16; 4:4; Heb 2:2).

You are owned by the one you serve. God does not behave unjustly; He cannot steal back the rightful property of the evil one. If God could have justly compelled the evil one to return His property, the redeeming blood would have been unnecessary. This explains why it is that when evil incarnate enters the Lake of Fire, he is legally entitled to drag his possessions with him.

I would remind you of the Scripture saying, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame".
'JoeInArkansas', you too must make every effort not to put God's only good and perfect being to shame as well.

The Bible states that one must first determine that God exists before he can hope to receive anything from Him; “for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”, Hebrews 11:6.

For many years now, I've noticed that those who remain unable to find the true God of the Bible and thus unable to fully, "Worship Him in spirit and in truth", become increasingly desperate to extricate themselves from under the hypnotic stare of guilt and the 'wages of sin'.

Now, there are those who protest and say: "I believe God exists!" To which I reply, “The God whom you confess as being so utterly consumed by love that He has forfeited justice does not exist.
Neither does the God exist whom many have imagined in their fearful hearts as desiring to punish and heap revenge upon every living thing,

It appears that numerous sincere Christians have unwittingly obtained for themselves an unscriptural insurance policy which was suitable for their delusions.
Some hurried to adopt something akin to ‘celestial fire insurance’ which they claim is stamped with God’s official business trademark of ‘Eternal Torment Inc’. This apparently guarantees that they have become exempt from the prospect of being incinerated in an eternal hell-fire.
It’s all so neatly wrapped and decorated with the admonition, “Don’t worry! Be happy!”. ALL of mankind will be saved.

Some of the more emboldened even excitedly speak of a day when Satan himself will be ‘saved’. The arch enemy of both God and man is seen by these people to be as much a hapless victim of ‘Eternal Torment Inc’ as they perceive themselves to be.

Still others soon added a dubious 'Flood Insurance Policy' to their glory road. This allowed them to declare that Satan had already been made powerless and a defeated enemy. Evidently, all one has to do when holding a 'Flood Insurance Policy’ is to tread water and wait patiently for the end to come. They failed to discern that the flood of Noah's days is an image of the things that will happen in the latter days. At the flood, the windows of the heavens were opened and also the fountains of the great deep as the waters covered the whole earth. Similarly, the Bible states that in the latter days an invasion of powers from heaven will throw themselves on the earth and the hosts of the powers called up from the Bottomless Pit will cover the earth.

The biblical flood is an image of the great tribulation. As Noah was saved in the visible world from the flood that covered the earth, so the Lord is preparing a people to Himself in these days which will be saved from the fiery ordeal that is about to engulf the entire earth. The spiritual life of the people who are not in Christ will then be completely overwhelmed by the powers of darkness. Jesus said: "Upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of heaven will be shaken", (Luke 21:25-26)

There is no mention of fire or flood insurance in the the Bible. It does however implore us to, “take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand”. It speaks of those those who are sealed and filled with the Spirit of God and how these will be able to overcome.
It mentions a struggle and describes how the people of God must have an armor which enables them to withstand in the evil day (Eph 6:13). Because then it will be power against power, Spirit against spirit, and miracle against miracle.

Before concluding, I want to add:
The lake of fire was not prepared for man but for the devils.
But when a man is united with an evil spirit, his end is where the evil spirit goes. If he is united with the Holy Spirit, he will be there where the Holy Spirit is, that is with God and his Son.
About those who are bound by evil powers, we should differentiate between the two categories: those who desire it and enjoy doing evil and those who resist, but in vain. Paul mentions the situation that man wishes to do good, while the power of evil prevails in him.

There are many who have never heard the Gospel and many more too who did not see the way to deliverance since it had not been clearly preached to them. Paul speaks of people who will be saved, yet suffer loss, (1Cor 3:15). To be saved "as through fire" means to be violently saved from the powers of darkness, the deliverance from which did not take place on earth in the name of Jesus. These, 'damaged' righteous, who hated sin, yet many times were compelled to do things which they did not want, will enter Sheol ... just as the Old Testament believers did, and just like them too, at their resurrection, they will be at the side of the 'blessed of the Father'.
Just like them they will find perfect healing at the trees of life (the faithful church) whose leaves (the spiritual gifts) are for the healing of the nations. In this way, the righteous of the Old and New covenant who did not receive what was promised (spiritual maturity), will be led to completion by the faithful church, (Heb 11:40).

All people, whether they call themselves Christians or not, who were indifferent towards the groaning of creation, who refused to succor the least of these, brethren, are in fact on the side of the realm of darkness. The destructive and lawless powers of sin and sickness, of poverty and injustice did not impress them and failed to create compassion. Their only goal is to have a good time on earth and to grab what they can. Their lives do not show a hunger and thirst for righteousness. Concerning these indifferent people the bible says: "The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever", while the righteous are able to say full of "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!", (Rev 14:11 and Rev 5:13).
In both cases the words 'for ever and ever' have the same power. There is no universal atonement, because the devil is evil in nature. It is impossible to cast the devil out of the devil, neither can he be delivered from the evil one! Similarly it is impossible to set free someone who has deliberately and knowingly chosen to do the works of the devil.

---

Rev 21:2,3
We read that a loud voice drew the seer's attention to the presence of God's dwelling place, the church, with men, or: amongst the nations of the earth. The earth has become Immanuel country, for God dwells with men. God dwells in the faithful church, but with the nations of the New Jerusalem. Now these peoples too must attain spiritual maturity (perfection). They are righteous, set free from every power of darkness, but they were saved as through fire, (1Cor 3:15).

This following verse only applies to the conquerors of the New Covenant, "He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death", (Rev 2:11). Those who shared in the first resurrection remained unhurt.

But there are innumerable who entered the New Jerusalem in an injured condition. The Lord will wipe the tears from the eyes; meaning that all injuries and spiritual wounds will be healed. How will God do this? Through His faithful church, which will lead the nations from righteousness to perfection and blamelessness. Thus, the promise given to the faithful of the Old Covenant is perfectly fulfilled: "And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect", (Heb 11:39-40). The author of Hebrews clearly says that the faithful of the Old Covenant reach perfection after death, not automatically ... but as a result of the work of the faithful church of the New Covenant.

We see again that salvation, healing, and spiritual maturity never occurs automatically; but in the way of the plan of God which leads to the envisaged purpose. The meeting between the faithful church of God and the faithful of all ages is symbolized by the encounter of bridegroom and bride. The garment of righteousness and thanksgiving makes the nations into an adorned bride, but the inner man of soul and spirit also has to be made perfect.

"I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall exult in my God; for he has clothed me with the garment of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness ...". "For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your sons (the faithful church) marry you (the New Jerusalem), and as the bridegroom rejoices over you", (Is 61:10 and 62:5).
It should be noted that the relationship between Christ and His church is as the relationship between husband and wife: "He who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him", (1Cor 6:17). "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I take it to mean Christ and the church", (Eph 5:31-32). Here, however, it is a matter of the relationship between the faithful of the Old Covenant, (the bride), and the faithful church in which God dwells, (the bridegroom). This bride must also reach spiritual maturity and full fellowship through the Holy Spirit so that God may truly become everything in everyone, (1Cor 15:28).

 

[Rach1370]

I misspoke when I said that Paul was "destroyed" on the road to Damascus. On the road to Damasus is where Paul was "called" into the harlot church and then spend "3 days" in it. His destruction began once He received the Holy Spirit.

I really wasn't going to give a long winded reply to your post...I simply could have stated I disagreed with everything and couldn't see biblical proof for a single thing you said...

But had I been considering attempting to reason with you...the above would have disabused me of the idea.

You honestly believe...honestly think you have any kind of right to say that meeting Jesus face to face called Paul into the 'harlot' Church...?

Thank you so much for affirming and proving my point....you are very, very wrong, and I pray that any Christian or struggling soul who comes across your teaching won't be swayed by it.

 

[Strat]

I have no problem with somebody saying they disagree with the word of God,that is their choice,it is however particularly arrogant to say you do so because you know more about love.mercy and justice than God does and carry it even a step further by saying anyone who does not side with you against the word of God is not a christian.

 

[us2are1]

Dear Son of Man,
My response is in my response to Rach above. "All things" really are all things. The sea represents the unbelievers. At the time of the new earth, there will no longer be unbelievers.
Joe

The sea means the sea. Never in scripture has the word sea been linked with unbelievers. The flesh will be done away with because it is not savable. In the Resurrection from the dead those who are worthy will not be raised in mortal bodies. After the thousand year reign of Christ all flesh will be burned and gone.
Your nonsense is in great error.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi Arnie,

I think the point Mark has made, that the reconciliation which God has made on His own behalf only becomes ours when we fulfil the conditions He has set, and receive reconciliation with God on our own behalf.

In other words, there are no scriptures which indicate UR in the terms jiggyfly means.

It should concern you that two proponents of UR - jiggyfly and JoeinArkansas - hold such differing views about how UR will happen.

Thanks dragonfly .....this thread has fragmented all over the place .... and I have been busy lately and had to set it aside .... it is a topic that has nagged me for many years.

But first I want to say that "I think" I know what jiggyfly means when he says UR .... but I may have misunderstood his position and still have things to learn. .... maybe another day we can start a new thread and look at it again.

Going back to what has nagged at me for years are verses such as below .... they leave me scratching my head .....

(from timothy 4:9-10)
[sup]9 [/sup]This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance [sup]10 [/sup](and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

(and there is also something similar in 1 John 2:1)
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. [sup]2 [/sup]He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

There are many other "similar references in the bible that I do not have time to look up right now .... but one of the main points I want to make has to do with preconceived notions as follows .....

.... for most of my 25 years as a fundamentalist Christian I have a preconceived notion that forgiveness and salvation is only available to those of us who accept + believe +- receive Jesus on a personal level . Pretty basic christian doctrine. And there are abundant scriptures that confirm that.

But when I change my preconceived notions and "pretend" that Jesus died for all mankind .... (they just don't know it yet) ... I am amazed at how many scriptures seem to allow for that as well.

Even the quotes from Romans where it says "All Israel will be saved" (even though they remain in unbelief as far as the gospel)

Are we missing something ????

I still hold to the requirements of basic Christianity for salvation (as we know it) .... but often I ponder who those are "outside" the city of the New Jerusalem .... there are obviously people there .... and we are there as well .... except we can go into the city .... and they cannot.

"Outside the city" does not sound too pleasant .... but it sure as Hell doesn't sound like the Hell described in the bible.

As I said .... are we missing something ??

Are the "unsaved" included in the new heaven and new earth but kept outside of the city of the New Jerusalem ?

Sometimes I wonder.

 

[epostle1]

[font=Verdana']19[/font] For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,[font=Verdana']20[/font] and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
[font=Verdana']21[/font] This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.[font=Verdana']22[/font] Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.[font=Verdana']23[/font] But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God’s servant to proclaim it.
Col 1:19-23 (NLT)

I see the evidence of UR all through the scriptures and here is a good one to start off the discussion.

"Now I would remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you-unless you have come to believe in vain" (1 Cor. 15:1-2)

Let's examine the parallels.

Col. 1:22 As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault
1 Cor. 15:1 "Now I would remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received,

Col. 1:23 But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.
1 Cor. 15:2 if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you-unless you have come to believe in vain"

Col. 1:23 Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.
1 Cor. 15:2 unless you have come to believe in vain"

In these verses, we are told that these Corinthian/Collosian communities received the gospel that Paul preached and so came to believe-a past reality. We are told that they are still standing in faith in the good news and are being saved-a present reality. We are told that if they hold fast to it, they will be saved in the future as well. Finally, and yet very significantly, there is always the possibility that they could reject this Good News of salvation, that they could fall from this grace. The mere profession of faith is never enough to guarantee salvation. It must always be the outward reflection of an interior conviction.

 

[us2are1]

Dear Son of Man,
My response is in my response to Rach above. "All things" really are all things. The sea represents the unbelievers. At the time of the new earth, there will no longer be unbelievers.
Joe

The sea means the sea. Never in scripture has the word sea been linked with unbelievers. The flesh will be done away with because it is not savable. In the Resurrection from the dead those who are worthy will not be raised in mortal bodies. After the thousand year reign of Christ all flesh will be burned and gone.
Your nonsense is in great error.

God did not create everyone for salvation. He created those who are worthy for salvation. There are many scriptures that talk about the bleeding heart idiots who say that God will not do any harm or any good.

12 "And it shall come to pass at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And punish the men Who are settled in complacency, Who say in their heart, 'The Lord will not do good, Nor will He do evil.'

38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'

Over four billion people will be slaughtered at the end because of Gospels like UR.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Arnie,

I am picking what seems to me to be the key sentence in your post - although all of it helps me to get alongside your understanding.

But when I change my preconceived notions and "pretend" that Jesus died for all mankind .... (they just don't know it yet) ... I am amazed at how many scriptures seem to allow for that as well.

For you to say this, suggests to me that at some point in the past, you had been taught that Jesus did not die for everyone. I, on the other hand, had never heard there are Christians who believe Jesus did not die for everyone until I had begun posting in Christian forums. Now, I can show you in scripture that God always planned to make salvation freely available to everyone, stretching right back to Adam and Eve. However, relationship with God is always a two-way street, and men must choose to walk with God in the direction He is going, to end up in the same place as Him.

There may be one exception to who can be saved, as offered by veteran in the following extract from his thread about the tares parable, in which Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven to a field in which the good master sowed good seed, but an enemy sowed tares.

(I will comment after veteran's words.)

'We have to remain within the parameters of the parable He gave there in Matt.13. At Matt.13:36 His disciples in private then asked Him to 'explain'... the meaning. And He did. What follows at Matt.13:36 is our Lord Jesus' explanation. And boy is it very, very deep, which is why it's so hard for many to understand.

The deepness of meaning it's about are the "workers of iniquity", i.e., the "mystery of iniquity", those of Jude 1:4 which were ordained "of old" to the condemnation against Christ.

Since Sunday School we are trained that anyone can come to Christ Jesus, believe on Him, and be saved, which is VERY TRUE per God's Word. So it's difficult for us to think about some men put on this earth for this present world being 'ordained' by our Heavenly Father to purposefully work against His Christ. With today's political correctness ideas pushed on many unsuspecting brethren, even talking about this matter may seem taboo. Yet there it is in God's Holy Writ in Matt.13, and by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself directly.

Once one starts minding what The LORD Himself, and His Apostles, taught about this present world time being about spiritual battle, the "emnity" between the serpent's followers and the seed of the Woman (Gen.3), then what our Lord Jesus was teaching with the parable of the tares ought to be a reminder of all that. Even more, it should serve as a reminder to us, His Church, to not get wrapped up in the things of this world, nor with trusting the things of this world and the workings that the tares do. Our Lord Jesus wanted us to know about them. And understanding a whole lot of God's Word and this present world to its depth will depend upon understanding our Lord's explanation of this parable.'


My one thought about the tares is, we have no idea whether these really are people, or, some other agency of Satan which is only spiritually perceived. After all, it is the angels who are going to do the harvesting, and the discerning between the wheat and the tares.

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[us2are1]

Dear Son of Man,
My response is in my response to Rach above. "All things" really are all things. The sea represents the unbelievers. At the time of the new earth, there will no longer be unbelievers.
Joe

With this analogy you have already tripped and stumbled. You say all things and yet remove the unbelievers from the list of all things. "O" what a tangled web.

Ask God for His Spirit before it is to late.