Not sure why this is so difficult for y'all to focus but guess we just as well call it quits. God bless y'all
Universal Reconciliation
- Thread starter jiggyfly
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Are you really done?
What about "receiving the reconciliation?" " . . . we urge you, be reconciled to God", what about these things?
What about "receiving the reconciliation?" " . . . we urge you, be reconciled to God", what about these things?
Dear Dragonfly,
Why do you believe that UR says that those who are not "in Christ" will be saved. I certainly have never said anything of the kind. Christ will call us all and convert us all. By the end of the final age, all mankind will be "in Christ". Don't confuse being in the church as the only way to be "in Christ". Those selected to be in Christ's church are blessed and will have the honor of ruling and reigning with Him. But the church is only the FIRST fruits of the harvest - not the ONLY fruits as you believe. The time will come in the final age when Christ will bring in the harvest of all mankind. It will not be forced nor will it go against our "will". God will call us and give each of us "faith" to believe Him. Right now, mankind is carnal and spiritually weak. But Christ is going to correct that problem in each of us.
Just as Paul was easily converted, so will each and every person who has ever lived be easily converted. The gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT repentance. Did Paul decide from his own "free will" to repent or was it in response to the gift of faith that Christ gave him. Paul was on his way to persecute the church and had no desire to repent of it UNTIL Christ came and changed him. Scripture says that Paul's conversion is the pattern for all men. Why do you believe that God will not do what He says He will do? Or maybe you believe that man's will is too much for God to over come? Where is YOUR faith to believe him when He says:
Phil 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
God will not "force" any man to be saved but God will change us so that we are saved. Paul hatred Christ and the church but when Christ came to him, Paul's "will" quickly changed. Was it forced? No! Paul willingly obeyed Christ's call. Why did Paul do this since he had not made a "decision" for Christ nor did he willingly repent before Christ came to him? Scripture says that Paul's conversion was the pattern that Christ will use to convert all men. When you can spiritually see how that is true, then you will understand that Christ has the power to draw all mankind to Himself and change them. Our repentance and acceptance of Him is a response to Him coming to us - not the other way around. Christ is the Savior. He has saved us all from perishing (paid the debt) and now, at the time of Christ's choosing, He will come to each of us and convert us into God's image. The word has gone out from His mouth and it will not return to Him void. His love will not rest until His work is finished in the final age. Christ will not fail in his mission that the Father gave Him to save the world.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Since Christ is going to save the world, don't you think it's time for you to accept it and start learning about HOW He is going to accomplish it?
Joe
Excuse me? Did you just call orthodox Christianity harlot?? You do realise that this IS an orthodox Christian board? Going around calling us harlots is not going to see you last here very long.
Mark I appreciate your earnest, but I don't see the use of debating. I was hoping that through expounding on the scriptures certain truths could be established and then discussion could begin on UR and the scriptures that are mistranslated and misrepresented to support endless torment. But unfortunately no one was willing to expound without bias and my time is very limited at the moment. If you would like to continue in this discussion perhaps we can do it through personal messaging. God bless.
Hi jiggyfly,
This is the first time you've mentioned you don't accept the accepted translations of scriptures you have not yet brought into the discussion. If you have genuine evidence of mistranslations, that would be of great interest.
But if you are unwilling to discuss the scriptures which militate against UR - as you have been so far - then your argument will necessarily fall short, unless you can provide a believable context for them which does not destroy the overall cohesion of scripture from Genesis to Revelation, as well as providing a beleivable context for UR.
With regard to UR, there is nothing in scripture which suggests rebellion by what we could call inanimate objects - rocks, trees, mountains (and so on) - but creation did fall, and Christ did redeem the whole of creation. The problem lies with men's hearts, and whether they will choose to be reconciled to God before they die.
In the OT, time ran out for people as God pursued them to destroy them. In the NT, the same happened, in that certain people met an untimely death for their self-aggrandisement and lack of respect to God. We see the same in certain lives today (and no doubt examples could be found in the last 2000 years of history), including those rare instances of total combustion.
Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Until the death of Jesus Christ there was a knowledge of God all over the earth. We see this as late as the captivity of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, and the servant of the then world super-power - the Roman centurion at the cross - exclaiming 'Truly, this was the Son of God'. But since Pentecost, the means of 'the knowledge of God' - the Holy Spirit - has much more clearly defined who acknowledges Him as He now requires, and who does not. If we cannot be sure who is saved by what they say (Lord, Lord) and by what they do (cast out demons), but salvation depends on the Lord's knowledge of our obedience to Him, UR (I say again) appears to be a means by which mere mortals, who have not the higher ways and higher thinking of God in their understanding, console themselves falsely as to His nature, as shown in His willingness to slay His own Son at the cross to bring an end to sin.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
You have brought up 'unending torment' several times in this short thread's life, and I acknowledge there may be truer ways to understand certain scriptures. But, so far you have not defined those terms once.
If that's what you really want to discuss, then please bring those scriptures forward, and show - independently of all discussion about UR - how they are to be better understood. If they genuinely remove all doubt about the validity of all the preceding destruction which God Himself has brought upon earth's inhabitants, and all the destruction which has been promised from millennia past, of course these are important to correct in the understanding of the believer and in the preaching of the gospel. But, your argument needs to rest on objective truth, and not on your personal dislike of God's righteous judgments.
We see how God treated Israel generation after generation, with regard to punishing them for sins, and even under the law, death was the penalty for certain sins; it was not until after Christ's death, resurrection, ascension and Pentecost, that a man could be 'justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses', (Acts 13:39). And so if you can show how all those dead people, from the Flood until Pentecost, are going to be saved, that would be a cojent start in making UR believable, especially in regard to the theme, terms, and definitions of faith as laid out for us by example and doctrine throughout scripture.
Over to you.
Hi Joe,
There is nothing in scripture which supports your thesis that Christ is going to convert people after they've died.
The 'revelation' that you've had, which you seem to think has the same validity as the words of the eyewitnesses of Christ's death and resurrection, and which you present without scripture to justify its soundness, is in total conflict with the gospel preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost, in the Temple (Acts 3) and by Paul. During his lifetime Peter wrote,
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
The only person who could have preached to the dead, is Jesus Christ before His resurrection. We know that He is seated at the right hand of the Father now, waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. There is nothing in scripture to suggest your idea of a 'Lake of Fire' age, and nothing to suggest that once Christ had sent out the disciples to make more disciples to preach the gospel to every creature, that He will do anything more than He is already described by the writers of the New Testament - the Lamb as it has just been slain (for men to believe in Him now), an Advocate for believers who in this life have sinned, (who are repentant), and the Judge into whose perfect understanding His Father has committed the fate of all the souls who will ever have lived.
Your thesis reads like pure imagination, when it's held against scripture for validifying cross-references.
OK, I understand!
But one last comment . . . "without bias", that seems to indicate that we are unable to examine Scriptures with in intellectual honesty if we already have reached certain conclusions about what they mean.
I was hoping to lead you through those same Scriptures, so you could see that while the Bible does teach universal reconciliation, it does not teach universal salvation, which is something different.
And if, along the way, either of us realized that we were looking at something wrong, we could make that correction.
If I may be so bold . . . I believe that you were expounding with a certain "bias". Isn't that what we do here on the debate forum?
Love in Christ,
Mark
If I might be so bold, I would like to interject a thought.
Have you ever considered that those who end up in hell forever might be there because thats the way they want it? God may be just fulfilling their desire as He fulfulls the desires of all creatures.
What is a living miserable hell to one person may be the heigth of bliss to another.
To anyone who wishes to be bathed in the love of God forever, the Bottomless Pit is somewhere we dont want to go, but perhaps, there are those who can be happy no where else.
Hell is there for those who want it. After all, everyone who goes there does so because they choose it. Doesnt that say something?
Have you ever considered that those who end up in hell forever might be there because thats the way they want it? God may be just fulfilling their desire as He fulfulls the desires of all creatures.
What is a living miserable hell to one person may be the heigth of bliss to another.
To anyone who wishes to be bathed in the love of God forever, the Bottomless Pit is somewhere we dont want to go, but perhaps, there are those who can be happy no where else.
Hell is there for those who want it. After all, everyone who goes there does so because they choose it. Doesnt that say something?
Since you have decided that everyone who opposes ur cannot fly by your rules, then maybe you haven't considered or admitted that it is you who are closed minded on this subject and are not willing to consider the passages that are being presented to you. This works both ways
. Be that as it may, anyone can come along and introduce a topic and make demands that everyone play by his rules or he will just take his ball and go home. It is easier to win any debate if one has control of the rules of it. However, this isn't about winning. If you are not open, then please refrain from demanding that others be open. People can see right through this scenario.
Hi jiggyfly,
This is the first time you've mentioned you don't accept the accepted translations of scriptures you have not yet brought into the discussion. If you have genuine evidence of mistranslations, that would be of great interest.
But if you are unwilling to discuss the scriptures which militate against UR - as you have been so far - then your argument will necessarily fall short, unless you can provide a believable context for them which does not destroy the overall cohesion of scripture from Genesis to Revelation, as well as providing a beleivable context for UR.
With regard to UR, there is nothing in scripture which suggests rebellion by what we could call inanimate objects - rocks, trees, mountains (and so on) - but creation did fall, and Christ did redeem the whole of creation. The problem lies with men's hearts, and whether they will choose to be reconciled to God before they die.
In the OT, time ran out for people as God pursued them to destroy them. In the NT, the same happened, in that certain people met an untimely death for their self-aggrandisement and lack of respect to God. We see the same in certain lives today (and no doubt examples could be found in the last 2000 years of history), including those rare instances of total combustion.
Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Until the death of Jesus Christ there was a knowledge of God all over the earth. We see this as late as the captivity of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, and the servant of the then world super-power - the Roman centurion at the cross - exclaiming 'Truly, this was the Son of God'. But since Pentecost, the means of 'the knowledge of God' - the Holy Spirit - has much more clearly defined who acknowledges Him as He now requires, and who does not. If we cannot be sure who is saved by what they say (Lord, Lord) and by what they do (cast out demons), but salvation depends on the Lord's knowledge of our obedience to Him, UR (I say again) appears to be a means by which mere mortals, who have not the higher ways and higher thinking of God in their understanding, console themselves falsely as to His nature, as shown in His willingness to slay His own Son at the cross to bring an end to sin.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
You have brought up 'unending torment' several times in this short thread's life, and I acknowledge there may be truer ways to understand certain scriptures. But, so far you have not defined those terms once.
If that's what you really want to discuss, then please bring those scriptures forward, and show - independently of all discussion about UR - how they are to be better understood. If they genuinely remove all doubt about the validity of all the preceding destruction which God Himself has brought upon earth's inhabitants, and all the destruction which has been promised from millennia past, of course these are important to correct in the understanding of the believer and in the preaching of the gospel. But, your argument needs to rest on objective truth, and not on your personal dislike of God's righteous judgments.
We see how God treated Israel generation after generation, with regard to punishing them for sins, and even under the law, death was the penalty for certain sins; it was not until after Christ's death, resurrection, ascension and Pentecost, that a man could be 'justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses', (Acts 13:39). And so if you can show how all those dead people, from the Flood until Pentecost, are going to be saved, that would be a cojent start in making UR believable, especially in regard to the theme, terms, and definitions of faith as laid out for us by example and doctrine throughout scripture.
Over to you.
Hi Joe,
There is nothing in scripture which supports your thesis that Christ is going to convert people after they've died.
The 'revelation' that you've had, which you seem to think has the same validity as the words of the eyewitnesses of Christ's death and resurrection, and which you present without scripture to justify its soundness, is in total conflict with the gospel preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost, in the Temple (Acts 3) and by Paul. During his lifetime Peter wrote,
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
The only person who could have preached to the dead, is Jesus Christ before His resurrection. We know that He is seated at the right hand of the Father now, waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. There is nothing in scripture to suggest your idea of a 'Lake of Fire' age, and nothing to suggest that once Christ had sent out the disciples to make more disciples to preach the gospel to every creature, that He will do anything more than He is already described by the writers of the New Testament - the Lamb as it has just been slain (for men to believe in Him now), an Advocate for believers who in this life have sinned, (who are repentant), and the Judge into whose perfect understanding His Father has committed the fate of all the souls who will ever have lived.
Your thesis reads like pure imagination, when it's held against scripture for validifying cross-references.
Dear Dragonfly,
I have done nothing BUT give you scriptures that support what I believe. You merely do not believe those scriptures. Until you do, you will go on believing that Christ is the worse thing that ever happen to mankind instead of the Savior that He is.
Joe
Dear Rach,
I was in the harlot "orthodox" churches for 44 years. It wasn't until Christ came to me a second time to heal my spiritual vision that I could see the "man of sin" that I had become in those churches. God conceals His truth from all but those He chooses. I was blessed and it wasn't because of anything I had ever done. Just like Paul, Christ came to me and chose me. The brightness of His appearing to me continues each day to destroy me - my "man of sin" that is. Just as Paul, I die daily. I would be lying if I said any differently. However, it is up to Christ as to whether or not I complete the path that leads to the narrow gate. For this reason, I work out my salvation with "fear and trembing, not knowing if I will be a castaway or not. Paul was given to us as the "pattern" for all conversions. Once you can see the truth of what Paul's conversion represents, then you too will see that we all must spend a time in the harlot churches. If we are chosen, then Christ will come again (second coming to us) and call us out of them.
All the churches of the world (all denominations or groups) are harlot. None of their doctrines are supported by scripture. The blind is leading the blind and that is why there are so many churches. They understand scripture from their carnal reasoning. Until Christ come to a person and heals their spiritual vision, they will have no ability to understand or believe His truth. I know that I am going into the wolves den when I come into this forum to teach the truth. But I do so to find those whom Christ has made ready (healed their vision) to hear His truth and to hear His call to "come out of her my people". For the sake of those whom Christ is choosing, I will endeavor to preach His truth among His enemies for as long as the Lord wills. As I layed out for you in my previous post, all men must spend a period of time in the harlot church because we are deceived by Satan who masquerades as Christ. Because we are spiritually blind, we can't tell the difference between Satan and the true Christ. The "many called" make up the harlot churches and from those harlot churches, Christ chooses a "few" who will become His church, His Elect. Christ does the choosing - we can't even volunteer to be chosen. But Christ is only bringing in the harvest of the first fruits at this time. He has a great harvest to bring in at the end of the growing season and He will use His church for the harvesting of them.
All that you have been taught in the harlot church is a lie. I don't know of any doctrine that is completely true. Most are complete fables. But those doctrines are pleasing to the carnal mind and that is why the harlot churches are so full. The true church of Christ is quite small, made up of the "few". Unless Christ has chosen you to be in it, you will not be. You have no ablity to travel the narrow path unless Christ is empowering you to walk it. We are at the mercy of Christ to save us. It has always been so and will always be so. That is why He is the Savior.
Joe
Hi Joe,
You have indeed given scripture to support what you believe, but that is not quite what scripture is for. Scripture is the word of God, and we are required to believe it as it stands, without adding or diminishing any of it's meaning and power.
One of the ways that one who has been baptised in the Holy Spirit recognises another person who has been baptised in the Holy Spirit, is that the other person has had the same revelation of Christ, and the same illumination of scripture as oneself. As Paul said 'we have the mind of Christ', emphasis on 'we'. There is such a thing as 'the fellowship of the Holy Spirit'.
Philippians 2:1 If [there be] therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.
Philippians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
There are no lone rangers in the invisible Church.
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty... 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
In the same way as of old, the word of God is recognised by its consistency with His character and nature as revealed by His actions. This same principle applies to us. Our character and nature are revealed by our actions.
There are two great extremes in God which relate to human beings particularly (by which I mean they show us how we were made in His image). One is what we would call (in cultured society) His primitiveness, which is our primitiveness - and the other is the violence His prepared to do to have things His own way, such as the great Flood, and, the cross of Calvary upon which Jesus Christ died for our salvation.
The gospel has been clear from the day of Pentecost, that God desires to deliver those who repent, from the power of sin in this life, and by His Spirit to enable them to walk in holiness (delivered from sin) and in obedience just as Jesus Christ did before He died. Those who know Him are in constant conversation with Him, and draw their strength from His life through the supply of the Holy Spirit which flows as we obey Him. Only as we obey Him can we be recognised by Him, as members of His body. Only as we abide in Him is the fruit of the Spirit borne as a natural consequence.
There is nothing wrong with this gospel. It works perfectly for those who receive it in all its fulness.
The changes you have made - which are different to the changes jiggyfly seems to want to make - are not justified by the record in the Acts of the -apostles by the Holy Spirit. People come through great personal challenges into an ever-deepening knowledge of God through the turmoil in this world which He has allowed, but He meets us here.
I will never agree with you that God wanted us to experience evil, because that statement is in direct opposition to HIs stated word:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It is not possible to read that command, and then conclude that God wanted man to die. Is it?
Why? Because when God's word is received into a heart, it creates both faith and the power to obey it.
This is as true for those turning to the Lord but not yet born again or baptised in His Spirit, as for those who know HIm. We see the same principle in operation when Jesus occasionally spoke to individuals saying 'Go and sin no more'. That command empowered them to obey it.
This is why God could not ignore Adam's transgression - because God knew Adam could have obeyed Him.
This is why the cross of Christ is truly good news for those who have found themselves unable to cease from sin; because in Christ God brought the power of sin into submisson, and those who receive Christ can experience victory over sin as He did. They can experience the purifying fire of the Holy Spirit burning up the chaff in their lives, and He Himself fans the flame. He wants His glory to be seen in all the earth.
Your idea that all those who have lived on this earth enjoying total disobedience to God, rejecting Christ's sacrifice for them, are nevertheless going to be brought into sonship once they are in eternity, has no foundation in scripture whatever, and you know that.
It is precisely because all men could be saved through faith in the sacrifice of Christ, that those who reject Him will be condemned.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Sounds a little different in a les diluded translation. What this means is that those who are rightous through Christ are saved and all the rest have been warned. Everyone is now without excuse.
.
Thanks jiggyfly ..... You have brought up the subject of UR and I feel is worthwhile for us to ponder it. I hope this thread continues for a long time.
Maybe we should just point out the scriptures that do indicate UR and keep posting them
Whether or not we personally agree with UR is a separate issue
Maybe we should just point out the scriptures that do indicate UR and keep posting them
Whether or not we personally agree with UR is a separate issue
Yeah, sorry, but I put absolutely no stock in a single thing above. I never claim the current denominations get everything right, but I suspect not even you could claim that about your 'movement'. But the central tenants of faith that I hold to...they come straight from scripture and are solidly backed up by the Holy Spirit praising those truths in my soul. Call that 'harlot' again, and you will be asked to move on. And that's not just my personal horror at your accusation....this board supports these 'harlot' views...we solidly believe the bible supports them, and we wish to converse and praise these things with other believers. You are welcome to share what you believe here...but they are clearly 'your views', and not what we believe is biblical truth...you may not come here and call us 'harlots' or say that 'our Christianity' is fake and sinful.
"Christianity Board (CyB) acknowledges that the nature of a forum community dictates that its members will hold a diverse range of beliefs within the Christian faith. In addition to this, we recognize that all Christians are a work in progress (Ephesians 4:13), and therefore we each are at different locations in our walk with Jesus at any given time. However, this diversity does not mean that we must sacrifice essential truths of living as a follower of Jesus Christ. We must adhere to some measure of orthodoxy in order to protect the essential core of the faith."
Just because you were not saved for the 44 years you were in orthodox Churches, does not mean you were not hearing the truth...it just means God did not open your heart to it.
I don't think the issue of UR should be used to counteract the notion of ET (eternal torment). These are separate issues that need a very distinct treatment.
God is BOTH a severe judge AND a most merciful God. He is BOTH. We can't pit one aspect of God against the other.
Where the bible says that God will have mercy on all means that ALL have an equal access to the mercy of God....whether Jew of Gentile.
As for the issue of ET...there is much mixing of distinct destinies described in the bible. The lake of fire KILLS the soul instantly. But those who hold the truth in unrighteousness are cast into outer darkness and wander there forever. So the true doctrine of the bible is ID (instant death) or else EW (eternal wandering).
God is BOTH a severe judge AND a most merciful God. He is BOTH. We can't pit one aspect of God against the other.
Where the bible says that God will have mercy on all means that ALL have an equal access to the mercy of God....whether Jew of Gentile.
As for the issue of ET...there is much mixing of distinct destinies described in the bible. The lake of fire KILLS the soul instantly. But those who hold the truth in unrighteousness are cast into outer darkness and wander there forever. So the true doctrine of the bible is ID (instant death) or else EW (eternal wandering).
Hi Arnie,
I think the point Mark has made, that the reconciliation which God has made on His own behalf only becomes ours when we fulfil the conditions He has set, and receive reconciliation with God on our own behalf.
In other words, there are no scriptures which indicate UR in the terms jiggyfly means.
It should concern you that two proponents of UR - jiggyfly and JoeinArkansas - hold such differing views about how UR will happen.
Dear Dragonfly,
Your lengthy dialogue was well thought out and I'm sure you spent some time in writing it. But most of it is not supported by scripture and it comes from the carnal reasoning of man as expressed by the harlot church.
Why do you believe that your "free will" gives you to the power to resist sin? Scripture says it does not and not only that, it says you do not have "free will". God's "will" rules over our "will". Our "will" is not free and we have no power to resist sin. Adam was given a command not to eat from the tree of good and evil. That command does not mean that we have the power within ourselves to obey that command. Do you not know that the law of Moses was given so that sin would increase? God made us carnal and spiritually weak. The law and the command given to Adam, was given to us by God to expose our sinful condition. If mankind can obey God from our supposed "free will", then the Holy Spirit is not needed. But the Holy Spirit is needed to empower us to resist sin. If Christ would have come in the same spiritual condition as mankind is born with, He would have sinned like we all do. But He came with the full measure of the Spirit and that is why He never sinned. Adam was created in such a way that he could not possibly avoid disobeying God. As I said, the law was given to prove to us that we are not capable of resisting temptations. We must be changed from the inside out and to do that, we need a Savior. If you are trying to "earn" you salvation by following the Law, you will not be in Christ's church. Only by the empowering of the Holy Spirit do you have any ability to avoid sinning. But even those who have the Holy Spirit still sin. Why? Because at this time, we are only given an earnest amount of the Spirit. And because we only have an earnest amount, we will still sin when our Old man rears his ugly head. As we spiritually mature through judgment, our Old man is slowly destroyed and the New Man slowly takes control. Then upon resurrection from the dead, we are given the full measure of the Holy Spirit and a new spiritual body to match. At that time, we are born again and will never sin again. We will have been changed from a wicked carnal creature into a child of God Almightly. It takes time for Christ to make this change in us. But His Word says that He will do it for each of us, but "every man in His own order" starting with His church.
Now concerning the Holy Spirit, if a person believes that God is going to fail to change ALL of mankind into His image but will instead torment them in fire for all eternity, that belief comes from the spirit of antichrist and not the Holy Spirit. God is love and love is long suffering, thinks not evil and above all, NEVER fails (1Cor 13:4-8). Your belief that God will fail most of mankind and will peramently harm them in judgment is absolutely void of love and does not come from God. God's judgement destroys our "man of sin" and that is good for the individually being judged. Without it, we would all remain carnal. Paul said that He died daily. That "dying" was because his Old Man was being judged. By the end of Paul life, His Old Man was dead and he will ready to be reborn at the time of His resurrection. Why do you insist that God's judgment is a nightmare for mankind - that it never ends and produces only harm for the person being judged? It is no wonder that the God you preach is shunned by most of the world. You believe that God draws us to Himself out of fear of Him. Scripture says that we are drawn to Him out of love. The harlot church created this fear doctrine to have control over the people and to use this fear to squeeze money out of them. The harlot church will be spewed out of the mouth of Christ and He will tell them that "I never knew you". If you continue along the path you are on, you will get to hear those words of Christ. And because you say you "see", you will be held accountable for all the false doctrines that you teach. But unlike you, I know Christ will produce a good change in you through the judgment He puts you through in the final age. Your salvation is certain but unless Christ comes to you and opens your eyes, you will not have the blessing of being in Christ's church.
Joe
Dear Rach,
You said:
Just because you were not saved for the 44 years you were in orthodox Churches
Scripture says that no one is saved during this lifetime. We are only saved AFTER we complete the course and have remained faithful until the end. THEN upon resurrection, we are saved (fully changed). It is all the work of Christ to change us and He will not fail.
The gospel you preach is a nightmare for most of the world. Your doctrine of hell is evil to its core. Can you imagine doing anything more evil than to harm someone your know & love with fire for all eternity and then tell them that you will never help them or forgive them for their sinful ways? What if one of those persons is one of your own children? Would you not forgive them? Would you continue to punish them with fire for trillions and trillions for years and then say to them that their punishment is only just getting started? Would you quit loving your child? If they cried out for help, would you not help them?
Even by the world's standards, a person who would do what you say God is going to do would be put in prison and never released. The doctrine of hell is void of love and I suspect you would never do anything I just described to one of your own children. I certainly would not to one of mine. Yet you teach that God most certainly will do that to His children. Can't you see that your doctrine of Hell contradicts God's character?
With my children (I have 3 boys), I would forgive them for anything that they might ever do. I would continue to work to change them (discipline) so that they would never do wrong again. And if I had the same power and wisdom of God, I know that I would never fail them. And finally, through it all, I would never stop loving them. That is what a good parent does.
Rach, are you a good parent or are you like the God you preach to the world?
Your god has a time limit on His love and mercy. Your god is not longsuffering. Your god torments His own children in fire and calls that justice. Your god is worse to his children than any parent I have ever known. At least the bad parents in this world who harm their children can only do so until the child dies. Your god will not let his children die so that he can go on and on tormenting them. Your god is evil. Your god is not the god of scripture.
Can't you see that your doctrine of Hell does not fit with the character and holiness of the true God of scripture? He is longsuffering. He is patient. He is kind. His love and mercy never end. He took our sins upon Himself because He did not want us to perish in death. He will work restlessly until He corrects ALL our sinful ways. My God uses judgment for corrective purposes. My God wants to save us all. My God will do all that is necessary to save us all - He even died for us. My God is love and His love NEVER fails. And thank God that my God is the true God of scripture.
Unless you repent, my God is going to hold you accountable for blasphaming His name throughout this forum.
Joe
Wow, Mr....you are seriously confused. I'm very, very sorry you find the God of the bible a horrible, tormenting, evil monster...but that in itself shows how confused you are, and how badly you misread scripture.
But apart from your obvious confusion and mistaken beliefs, I do have to wonder why on earth you: 1- came to this board, as it is full of "blasphemers"...you know, people who believe the bible to be saying exactly what it is....and 2- why you decided to zone in on me with all the accusations above...I don't remember putting down all my beliefs or even most of them in this thread...so you're either making wild assumptions, or you've taken the time to go through all the threads and find out exactly what I believe. So I must ask....have you made all those accusations above simply because I disagreed with you and your rather nasty insistence to call most of the people here 'harlot'? I suppose I must thank you in a way, by going on your tirade above you've given me a much clearer vision of your beliefs and how you are apparently willing to attack, and make up doctrines for someone you've has 2 brief conversations with. Yup....as I said, confused.
Universal Reconciliation is not going to happen because the Lord created the first heavens and earth to decay. It is already told in scripture that the first heaven and earth will pass away. Behold he makes all things new. No reconciliation there. When it comes to his people only those who are worthy will make it.
37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,
27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ,
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Joe, every way that you display God and His character not only towards His Children but those outside of Christ is so completely unscriptural that it is difficult at best to take anything you say seriously. Not only do you demean and do serious damage to God's character and attributes but you do the same to men. God is not a bully but that is how you represent Him whether you know it or not. It makes me wonder about your interactions with people if you think that man has no freedom of choice and that God will just have His way with men regardless of what their choices are. This is not the Love of God in Christ Jesus.
Is this how you see the interaction of God's love with mankind. That God will force, coerce and manipulate men that do not love Him. That is sick when you think about what that looks like in real life. A human being that does that usually goes to jail if caught.
I am sorry that this is how God appears to you and even more sorry that you are propagating this misinformation about Him.
What was the cross for, why the need for the indwelling Holy Spirit, why any talk about love and relationship in the New Testament, what is His death and the spilling of His blood for, why is there a doctrine of sin, etc, etc, etc? Your beliefs Joe, do violence to most every major Christian doctrine supported by the Church for the last 20 centuries. You corrupt, twist and malign God's word and you want us to accept your mis-characterizations of God.
I see how you treat people that disagree with you. That gives me a little window into your real life interactions.
But according to you, bullying bears fruit, because after all, "all men will be saved whether they like it or not!"
Joe,
Does your Bible say that the children of God are only those by faith in His Son?
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Does your Bible say that Jesus told some people their father was the Devil?
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Does your Bible say that there are children of God and children of the devil?
1Jn_3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
What ever father/Father you belong to is the one you will be spending eternity with. Pretty simple and plain teaching, Joe.
Axehead
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